Firstly; yes I believe that cables makes a difference. All cables. I don’t want a discussion with ”non believers”.
I use a power strip (Wireworld Matrix 2) which is connected to the wall socket with a Furutech Empire. But now I need a little longer power cable and I thought; does the power cable from the wall socket to the power strip really matter? I mean, all the way to my wall socket it’s just ordinary wire, so why should the part to the power strip matter. It’s just the last bit to the devices that matters, I’ve been told. Or…?
What are your thoughts about this?
yes, Yes , YES!! The best solution is to try yourself in your own system using your own ears. Only you can determine if the sonic change if any is worth the price within your budget. While you’re at it, if you get a demo power cable, you may want to try on your other components also.
Some cable companies allow free trial, or you can buy and sell used to save $.
The power out of the wall is commonly very noisy from other appliances, grid sharing, etc. Generally, a “quality” power conditioner usually has significant positive results (lowers noise), but a very small few with likely an extremely revealing transparent system, the conditioner may subtract a positive sonic trait. But it seems most report significant positive changes. Dropping the noise floor allows one to hear more into the music.
mihorn answers made it clear to me that testing is the only way to find out what works best for one and each.
How do we know which one works better? It is simple. The better one (power cord, any audio cable, and any component) sounds closer to the original music. The original music is cleanest, smoothest, and the most musical. Alex/Wavetouch
Since I started this thread I've been searching the internet for information about power conditioners and power cords. I found so many different and contradictory answers and opinions so I wrote these questions that made some here mad at me.
I'm sorry for that. It was not my intention to waste anyone's time and I'm certainly not trolling. Some answers got a bit too technical for me and I tried to rephrase my questions.
But I understand this is not something that has a solution that fits everyone.
mihorns answers made it clear to me that testing is the only way to find out what works best for one and each. As some of you already had said.
And again, I'm really sorry that I upset some of you.
This below is the Shunyata cable you may be remembering. I have one connecting my 4 outlet Hydra to the wall. It made a very noticeable difference in sound quality without squashing dynamics. My Hydra only conditions two power cables - to my CD transport and dac. I find that connecting pre and power amp cables to the Hydra steps on dynamics too much.
I added a 4AWG/per conductor power cord from the Furutech wall outlet to the PS Audio P20 and another 4AWG power cord from the P20 to the high current Steve McCormack modified DNA-1. The increased amperage was well-appreciated by Tekton Design Double Impact speakers. Each of those speakers has 11 drivers requiring amperage to reproduce sound. The additional amperage is all I can attribute to the improved sound. I listen to music at around 50dB and the dynamics peaks are around 73dB…happiness achieved.
Is the sole purpose with high end cables to deliver the power as stable and clean as possible?
1) No. Not for stable power. Every cables the electricity passes from the power plant to your audio gears affect the shape, texture, and tone of sound of your system. The structure and quality of good PC will decide the sound of PC. And that PC sound will be added to existing audio sound.
If a good sound PC (not more expensive PC) is used instead of a bad sound PC, the result will be cleaner.
Is the sole purpose with a power conditioner to clean and deliver stable power?
2) The power cable can’t clean the electricity. The PC can’t clean the electric noise from hair dryer. Dirty electric noises from the power plant and neighbor’s wash machine are all in the power. Of course, my home hair dryer has more electric noise than neighbor’s dryer. But the PC can’t clean the electricity.
The input and output of most power conditioner (transformer type) are not directly connected. So, the power cond can clean the power some degree. However, since all PC and power cond are not made perfectly (makers have no idea how to make a perfect audio PCs), there are more bad than good.
But there are people that says that power conditioners drains the life out of the music. Why is that? What has gone wrong then?
3) I know no one has figured out about power cord and power conditioner yet. Cable companies have no idea. Some does bit better because they have more experience. In my view, those even 30-40 years experienced ones know almost nothing.
The sound difference between PCs are so small. May be max 10% of total sound. 40% of the total sound is wrong and that 10% doesn’t matter much and will not fix the true problem. The human ears are just so sensitive to find out which is better. The better doesn’t mean it is perfect. Anyway they don’t satisfy anyone anymore in few days.
But I have also heard bad change in the sound when I have replaced several ordinary power cables with ”better cables”. Why is that?
4) They are not "better cables." More expensive are not "better cables." Many times stock cables sound better than expensive badly made cables. The PC maker has no idea.
How can the power cable from the wall outlet to a power conditioner have any importance?
5) If a good PC is used (between the wall to PC) instead of a bad PC, the final sound will be cleaner, warmer, and smoother.
The power has traveled through miles of ”ordinary cable” to my wall outlet, so how can this last bit to the power conditioner, that is supposed to clean the dirty power, have any impact on the sound?
"The founder of Shunyata has an article or video somewhere on his site that explains how looking at power like plumbing is wrong and explains how to look at it and why it works."
I have an old Shunyata 4 outlet Hydra power conditioner bought at reduced price on Ebay. Only the CD transport and Holo May dac are plugged into it. The conditioner was not making a very noticeable difference until I plugged a Shunyata Delta AC power cord ( from dedicated line Hubbell hospital wall outlets to conditioner) into it. That made a very noticeable difference for the better. This cable is made specifically for Shunyata power conditioners and has enough pure silver in it to make it expensive.
All of the rest of my power cables are Level 3 AntiCables which I like a lot though the all copper blades need to be de-oxidized periodically.
People harp and argue a lot about cables not making a difference because how could they - they can only be as good as the mains power feeding them, but my take has always been that any wire is essentially a filter. That filtering can be executed cleanly or not.
I also made some mineralized grounding boxes (signal ground type) for the transport, dac and subwoofers and that lowered noise floor enough to distinctly hear a difference.
How can the power cable from the wall outlet to a power conditioner have any importance?
The power has traveled through miles of ”ordinary cable” to my wall outlet, so how can this last bit to the power conditioner, that is supposed to clean the dirty power, have any impact on the sound?
Did you bother to read anything I posted?
Bother to LOOK into any of the SCIENCE involved/mentioned?
Virtually every modern convenience, computer, electronic medical, listening or communication device you've been enjoying, invented since the late 1900's, resulted from the study of just those (mentioned in my posts) phenomena.
While what I've posted are my postulations (far as PCs); they are based on some VERY SOLID SCIENCE (Physics/QED).
If you believe a power cable makes a difference, and you believe you hear a difference, then be happy. I will not tell you what you can or can't hear. I am neither that arrogant nor disrespectable :)
Now as both a subjective audiophile and an engineer:
Yes, they can bleed 60 Hz and harmonics into poorly shielded signal cables.
Yes, many cheap cords are not even twisted inside to minimize emissions.
Yes they can pick up RF
Yes, I have found cheep cables that were not even welded to the prongs, Just held in place by the overmould! YIKES!
As with any cable, the shorter the better. The appropriate gauge, the better. Twisted the better. Separation from signals the better.
BUT, OK, several hundred feet of ALUMINUM entrance wire, bi-metallic contacts in the breaker, hundred feet of the cheapest copper you can find in your wall, that "magic cord" and then going into an alloy fuse, tin plated fuse holder and into several hundred more feet of cheap copper in the transformer or whatever they do to it in a switching supply, the ultimate RF generator. So, is that where you want to spend your money? I spent mine on some replacement ends so I could shorten and tidy up the cables. I also have a Emotiva DC blocker as I DO get transformer hum depending on how many LED lights, dimmers and DC fans are running. Transformers are the very best RF filter there is. I love linear supplies.
Some even suggest "audiophile" outlets. Well, there are three actually different outlets. The 49 cent "contractor" ones with back-stab. Total garbage, swap them all out. Then the mid grade $1.95 with much stiffer holding power and a little heavier, followed by the $4 "commercial" grade. What my house if full of. Snug fit. Good contacts. Don't fatigue. These can also get "medical" separated ground or "data center" which as far as I can tell, differ in the orange or green dot only.
Your choice. The only risk is some esoteric "audio" cables are not UL/CSA certified so you are on your own to know if they are safe as far as not starting a fire.
«Sound need a medium , the air, but sound is not the medium nor the mere waves in it; sound is a real event from the vibrating sound sources or near two sound sources with qualities, localization and duration; sounds are no more illusion than the rainbow, they reflect our own grasp of the sound source and the sound source effect on us» Anonymus philosopher
A simple experiment to understand why any external modification or perturbation or modification around an electrical field may matter and in some cases be audible as a kind of filters:
Put a 200 grams piece of quartz on your amplifier, then try with a piece of shungite of the same size... Go from one to the other and listen the difference ; it will be a slight degradation or an improvement , if it is neither of the two try and put them together,...
if your amplifier is on the warm side of thing , the quartz may help it..
If your amplifier is on the cold side the shungite may help it...
If your amp is more balanced the two together may also did something helpful...
In any case the goal is to hear a "change" for the worst or the better and then you will know how the world is not as described in your manuals ...
A varied mix of some minerals do marvel for my Sansui alpha who sound as a tube amplifier to my ears : more fluid and no trace of dryness or shrill or anything making it a S.S. design ... the sound is meatier and i modify it at will... It is like using different cables to my ears...Usually i keep my recipe without changing it because there is more no need to balance it further ...
No sarcasms by empty head will be needed when someone dare to suggest a simple experiment a 4 years old can do... 😊
«How about a piece of quartz on my front head as a king ? » Groucho Marx 🤓
I asked a question which resulted in several new questions.
Is the sole purpose with high end cables to deliver the power as stable and clean as possible?
Is the sole purpose with a power conditioner to clean and deliver stable power?
If these two questions are anwerd with yes, then the first step has to be to buy a power conditioner.
But there are people that says that power conditioners drains the life out of the music. Why is that? What has gone wrong then?
Yes, I belive and I’ve heard a positive change in the sound when I have replaced the ordinary power cable that came with the device. But I have also heard bad change in the sound when I have replaced several ordinary power cables whith ”better cables”. Why is that?
How can the power cable from the wall outlet to a power conditioner have any importance?
The power has traveled through miles of ”ordinary cable” to my wall outlet, so how can this last bit to the power conditioner, that is supposed to clean the dirty power, have any impact on the sound?
I hope you understand what I’m trying to say and what I wonder. I know my English is not the best.
I do not have the power conditioner but have recently upgraded to their Puritan Ultimate power cord on my PS Audio Power Plant with very favorable results
Here's the feedback that I sent the distributor after installing the Puritan Ultimate
Darin the XX cable is a beast and an engineering work of art
It's only got 10 or so hours on it, but it's clearly better than what I replaced on my PS Audio Power Plant 15
It was an immediate improvement with no A/B comparison, swapping back and forth needed
I do not know the technical terms and proper audiophile jargon, but I do know my system and my music
And I'm hearing the best versions of both after connecting the Puritan Ultimate
Wider dynamic range, increased detail, even at lower volume
At higher volumes significant bass slam improvement and the overall sound is tight and punchy
The single best $900 I've spent on my system in the last 5 years
I know it's a cable but the improvement will have people asking what new piece of electronics have I added
After 200 hours it should be a real treat
I'm delighted with the results
ty for your coaching and guidance through the process
OP - the power cord to your power conditioner will make a difference. But the power cord for your amplifier will have a bigger impact especially if you’re still using stock cords.
What sound characteristics/improvements are you looking for, and what sound characteristics are most important to you? You’ll get some good recommendations here if you share this critical info. Also, as I mentioned earlier, buying used can definitely be your best friend here, especially when it comes to cables.
A dealer friend on this forum is currently making custom power cables and sold one to me specifically for wall-to-conditioner which serves line preamp, DAC, streamer and subs. Current cable is 10 already AWG, but dealer says his will sound more open and give more convincing bass slam. Silver plated copper strands and rhodium connectors. Waiting for that to arrive today for trial. If it makes a noticeable difference, I will ask him to build another for wall-to-power amp.
'And here come the cable deniers, lol. Saving the world... '
'So old. So obnoxious. '
Candyman, Bloody Mary, Beetlejuice, and the local Cargo Cult... WELL: those last ones can't even wait for their names to be spoken three times any longer: CAN THEY(snicker)?
You can’t go wrong with Hubbell Hospital grade receptacles. They are built like a tank. Luckily, we have all 12 gauge Romex for every receptacle/circuit in our home with 20 amp breakers. Normally, you will find 15 amp receptacles on a 20 amp circuit. Since our media room is on its own circuit, I swapped our the outlet for my audio equipment and used a 20 amp Hubbell. The rest of the receptacles are standard 15 amp and only used for lamps. Using a Hubbell receptacle is an affordable option that should be considered when setting up your system. Just one person’s opinion.
Bear with me a minute, in my folly, far as a possibility on why a power cord might make a difference.
Based on some of the theories on how electricity works, simplified:
The conductor acts as a waveguide for the signal/voltage.
Within the conductor: when excited by an AC current, electrons oscillate, generating photons/electromagnetic waves that travel, always from the source, to the load.
Keep in mind: all signals (ie: music, AC) are sinusoidal waves
Those photons/electromagnetic waves travel through and outside the dielectric, which (according to it's permittivity/Poynting vectors) will have various effects on those waves. One of the most obvious, is the dielectric's effect on the speed of the signal.
The better designers of printed circuit boards, even take the above into account, when choosing materials for their products.
I posted a link on the first page, that included data on the manufacture of semiconductor chips and what was observed when materials were cryo'd, during process. Short version: better contact/lowered resistance between layers.
Under the scanning microscope: much smoother surfaces observed.
I would hope, by now, it's a given that various cable constructions, twists, braids, etc, can make for a cleaner transmission of signals (ie: Litz, etc).
Just seems to me (a hypothesis): given the above (some theories and some things established/measured/proven), it's not a big stretch to believe a power cord, built of the best conductor (Ohno CC silver), wrapped in a very low dielectric coefficient dielectric (ie: Teflon), cryo'd for the smoothest transfer of those photons/magnetic waves and twisted in some crazy way, might not smooth out some of perturbations/noise, from the crap an AC waveform had to go through, back to it's generator. (run-on, much?)
I haven't tested this, actually comparing two circuits, but: it wouldn't surprise me, if a power supply that used a choke, would be less affected by a better power cord, as the former can eliminate a lot of the high freq garbage, etc, that's either created by, or makes it through all the big converting/filtering stuff, before.
Never thought about PCs before the good stuff hit the market, but: the Physics/QED made sense.
I tried 'em, I like 'em and the science makes my head feel better.
OH, and: it takes some time for the dielectric to form, take a charge, polarize, or however one chooses to define the process, when a dielectric is subjected to electromagnetic waves, which affects the Poynting vectors, measurably/predictably.
The lower the material’s dielectric constant: the longer that takes.
My first step (when addressing power to my system) was to replace the 14 AWG, that fed most of my upstairs rooms, with a 20A dedicated line (two twisted together, 10/2 runs of Romex*), on it's own breaker and the bus bar of the Main, with nothing but one side of the 230V, HVAC power on it (I got lucky, there).
The HVAC stays turned off, during listening sessions.
*My listening room's 120' from the mains box.
Although I don't doubt that better outlets would improve things, somewhat: I used Hubbell, Extra Heavy Duty, Hospital Grade receptacles.
That was almost 30 years ago and they still grip like a gorilla, so...
An Audio Magic Stealth feeds everything but the Main Mono Amps and VPI SDS, in my actively bi-amped system.
Though the purifier is there to do just that (purify), making it's job as easy as possible has been my goal in PC selection.
I’m not an expert but this is what Cardas states on their website.
“The Nautilus features our own 4181US power outlets. Rhodium/Silver plated contact surfaces and excellent grip tension make both of these premium connectors ideal for audio applications.
There are no current-limiting components in The Nautilus. This is as pure as power distribution gets. The hot & neutral lines are point-to-point wired with Cardas Solid Core 10 AWG copper. The star-ground system uses Cardas 11.5 AWG Multi-stranded Litz Conductor. Each outlet has the same RFI/EMI protection found in our flagship power cables. Each outlet in The Nautilus is equally capable of providing clean power and noise-free grounding to your audio system.” Hope this information is helpful.
I disconneted my conditioner because it is too noisy and it filters and modify the sound quality for the worst... There exist probably better than my Panamax.. I am plugged direct in the wall near the Main electrical panel... Can i improve it ? yes i could with a new wall socket perhaps but the sound quality is already staggering...
My amplifier dated back from 1987 and its power chord is the usual one for the time... I will not change it ...
I dont know if a conditioner will do better... The panamax had good reviews but when i go from speakers to headphone i heard clearly that it introduce noise and distortions...I disconnect it... my headphones are very sensible to the noise floor , i was in the obligation to change even my very good Sansui AU 7700 which i could not fault with my speakers...The Sansui alpha even own a "source direct" button bypassing the tonal controls and the useless circuits from the pre amp stage to the power amp stage.. for less noise... It work well...
I purchased a used Cardas Nautilus Power Strip a few years ago. You can pick up a used one for under 1K if you’re patient. I use a heavy 10 awg Silnote reference power cable from a heavy duty Hubble receptacle to the power strip. Silnote installed a right angle plug for me to reduce wall clearance and fatigue on the cable.
I have had the same quandary. Yes it makes a HUGE difference, so much so I have an Entreg DIGITAL (not analogue) power cable from Furutec socket into my specialist made extension box so I feed off that result with the Digital sources fromyte extension box to the cpources which eac hone prefers different cables
@mrskeptic+1! Clever marketing can sell ice cubes to Eskimos! The whole cable/wire/conditioner business is based upon flowery phrases and obfuscation to lure in the gullible! Audiophiles as a group are among the most gullible and susceptible to advertising/word-of-mouth marketing.
You would be better making you own cable with Furutech NCF connectors and Furutech cable. I have been swapping cables and plugs for a while to get the sound the way i want it. The last change was a HiFi tuning fuse in the wall socket plug. And that made a difference. I would say that i have got it the way i want it now, but another swap around maybe even better. lol. Good luck.
You gave the answer yourself in the description of your situation. If you have not changed the wiring in the walls and up to the socket it’s normal copper wire ... how much difference do you think it makes if you extend that normal copper wire a couple of yards? Exactly ... none. If your expensive power cables from socket to equipment do magical things to the sound, than they will still do that.
The Puritan Audio Labs Power Conditioner PSM156 comes with a good Puritan Classic power cord supplied in the box, BUT, almost every PSM156 we sell leaves with the Puritan Ultimate Power cable. It makes a very solid upgrade even better.
But the meaning with a power conditioner is to "clean the power". Right?
So how can the power cable to the conditioner matter? Or am I just stupid here?
No, you are not stupid, just logical. Why would a manufacturer not build a high quality conditioner with a high quality power cable that was matched and hardwired to the unit? No upsell opportunities.
I have found that my sound is best from my superior cables being plugged into my components. I tried my best cable from the wall to distributor, but it did not work well. Currently, my wall to distributor is serviced by an adequate, but unspectacular cable. I think it would be good to upgrade the wall to distributor cable, but I am not certain if I would notice a large improvement. A little improvement would be nice, but I wouldn't expect anything dramatic at this point.
Go to the Nordost website. They have a presentation explaining what they believe is the order of importance of each cable in a system. The power cable out of the wall socket is number one, more important than connectors. I believe that was part of a demonstration they’ve done at audio shows. Hope this helps.
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