Power Cable Break In - Such a Change!

rodman99999,

You have me confused...

ozzy

wesheadly,

The Dragons are broken in at the factory, but they still will require many hours within one’s system to fully break in or develop. They also have bias circuitry that is not activated until you pull the tab activating the battery when installing them.

I do get it about the pricing, I have been fortunate in that I purchase items mostly used and can sell them if I want for almost what I paid for them. So, not too bad in the long hall.

I have noticed that as my system has improved, it is easier to tell the improvements.

ozzy

audphile1,

I have also built many power cables. The best I made was using pure 10 gauge solid .9999 silver wire with the Furutech NCF fittings. I used oversized Teflon tubing and braided them similar to the Dragons. They sound very good, but alas not as good as the Dragons.

ozzy

@ozzy 
I put together two new power cords about a week ago using Furutech FP-S55N with FI-50 NCF and FP-S032N with FI-28(R). Going thru almost exactly the same nasty break in as you are experiencing with Audioquest. 
The minute I plugged the new power cord in the sound was incredible. Best I ever heard my system sound. Then 2 days in harsh, muffled, artificial, glare, boomy. Then there was no bass…gone…just harsh mids and highs. 
I stopped listening and just gave it a 3 days with the components on 24/7.
Thankfully about 110-120hrs in it’s coming around.  The delicate highs, clarity in mids and textured lively deep bass. I’m expecting it to settle around 200hr mark but continue to improve up to around 600hrs based on what I’m reading. 
Break in is real and this was worse than anything I have ever heard during the break in phase. 

     "Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction."  (Pierre Pachet, Professor of Physiology at Toulouse , 1872) 

     "The abdomen, the chest, and the brain will forever be shut from the intrusion of the wise and humane surgeon,"  (Sir John Eric Ericksen, British surgeon, appointed Surgeon-Extraordinary to Queen Victoria 1873)

      "The super computer is technologically impossible.  It would take all of the water that flows over Niagara Falls to cool the heat generated by the number of vacuum tubes required." (Professor of Electrical Engineering, New York University)

       "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible!" (Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895) 

      "There is no likelihood man can ever tap the power of the atom."  (Robert Millikan, Nobel Prize in Physics, 1923)

      "Man will never reach the moon regardless of all future scientific advances." (Dr. Lee DeForest, Father of Radio & Grandfather of Television)

      "The bomb will never go off.  I speak as an expert in explosives."  (Admiral William Leahy, re: US Atomic Bomb Project) 

      When the steam locomotive came on the scene; the best (scientific) minds proclaimed, "The human body cannot survive speeds in excess of 35MPH."     

      If the planet's innovators/inventors/scientists had paid heed to the ubiquitous bleating of the naysayer, from the dawn of humanity; we'd still be listening to conchs for entertainment.     Well: PERHAPS they'd have admitted one for each ear DOES create a stereo effect, but...

     Their church's credo should be, "Science?    We don't need no stinking Science!"   

                                         ESPECIALLY: ANYTHING NEW!

     The local Master Of The Deluded ("Trust ME, I’m a fictitious operative!"), quoting ANOTHER fictitious character, about, "self-deception".

"The capacity of Humans for self-deception is apparently unlimited" - Mr.Spock the Vulcan.

Whether you know it or not, when you spend thousands of dollars on a power cord you have just entered the land of confirmation bias-- and there is far more actual peer-reviewed science to support that than there is, by miles, that supports the pseudo-scientific theories put forth by certain cable mfg’s.

Also, the poster that said that they have to charge what are essentially insane levels of price markup because, due to the stupid price, not so many people will want to buy them-- well gee, given you have all of that profit headroom why not lower the price way down and sell so many more of them? Why? Because, psychologically speaking, the price is a part of the sound.

I’d bet that no-one on this thread could listen to and rank a series of power cables by price, in their own system, using A-B testing-- even over long listening sessions with all of those cables previously "broken in".

BTW-- why do you think those super expensive power cords don’t come "pre-broken-in"? Given they cost thousands and have obscene profit margins, and adding the burn-in cost to the final product would be trivial on a $4,000 power cable for example. not-to-mention  that wasting 150 hours or more on break-in adds inevitable wear to your cartridges, tubes, electronics, etc.? Why indeed.

Don’t get me wrong, quality cables are essential to a good high-end analog system and the wire, connectors, and build are all important-- but you can get all of that from any number of cheaper cables-- and you will never know the difference, or be able to rank them by sound quality as I stated above.

And anyone with a "golden ear" surely knows that trying to judge the effect of a high-end cable or component listening to a YouTube video would hopefully know better than that.

Is there any other hobby that makes more wildly unprovable claims than this one? Maybe that could be a topic?

tyray,

I had the SR before I got the Dragons. The SR has a more dynamic and airy quality.

I think though with my AudioQuest 7000 power conditioner and other Dragons now in my system the Dragons are more of a fit. I may actually sell the SR to complete to all Dragons. I have never had a complete loom of one brand power cables in a long time.

That’s not to say anything against the SR, it really is a fantastic power cord. Especially if you were to have SR power conditioner.

ozzy

Spock actually used very expensive components and cables in his system, and strongly believed in break-in as essential... 

Yep…
In a process he called vulcanisation.

Spock actually used very expensive components and cables in his system, and strongly believed in break-in as essential... 

"The capacity of Humans for self-deception is apparently unlimited" - Mr.Spock the Vulcan.

That video is not an explanation of complex physics, it’s pseudoscientific baloney.

The soft voice and accent makes it sound credible though.

Ozzy, Can you compare your Synergistic Research Galileo SX power cord to the a new AudioQuest Dragon power cord? Especially if used in the same and different positions. PS, Love them Focals!

                                                       OOPS!

     Make that,  "... might explain some of WHAT'S HEARD from our systems..." (typo).

@rwortman -

     What is it, far as the topics covered above, for which you are seeking an informed, scientific explanation?

     If you have any knowledge, at all, regarding the Sciences; you must be aware, that we only, "know" what comprises about 4% (matter AND energy) of this entire universe.

     Of that 4%: there are very few things that we can consider categorical, "fact" or, "Law".     The rest is all theory, over which Physicists and some of the greatest minds the planet has ever known, have argued since 1927 Vienna and the fifth Solvay Conference on Physics.

     If you're actually interested in some information, regarding the 20th Century's theories (ie: Electrical Theory (QED), semiconductor permittivity, wave/ particle duality, etc) and how those might explain some of what hear from our systems:  we're on.

     If you're just another naysayer, looking for the typical, inane, uneducated argument: forget about it!

                                      Either way: happy listening!

@chayro

I think these just sold unfortunately but 60 percent off. However register at both hifi shark and Usam and save your search term and you’ll get them soon enough.

That video is not an explanation of complex physics, it’s pseudoscientific baloney.

I agree that break-in is not necessarily linear...cables, electronics I think go through cycles until they are fully settled in...

I think everyone would like to buy exactly the cable they wanted used at 60% off.  If anyone has some 1M AU24 ICs, I’d definitely be interested. 

aj523,

I hear Ya. It has taken me years to get to this point. I always call it the lunatic fringe. Stay with this hobby long enough and you too will start searching for that next best thing. Afterall didn't your Hurricane replace your previous cable?  Your already on the never-ending journey.

Remember, people pay $$$ for collectable pennies and such. It’s all about what we enjoy!

And, even used cables require some break in or "refreshening".

ozzy

Whether break-in is real or in the brain, it’s crazy to buy high end power cords new at retail or even 20 percent off (and have them sound bad for 150 hours) when they go for 50-60 percent off used and nicely broken in. I bought the AQ Hurricane for my AQ5000 on USA Audiomart for $850 (retail $1,750). 

mrskeptic

Second of all, when he says simply bending a wire changes it’s properties and therefore changes how your speakers will sound, he loses all credibility with me.

Bending creates stress that distorts the properties of a material. 

Tying a knot in a rope reduces the strength of that rope where it is bent. One doesn’t need to be a scientist to understand this.

Knot strength chart.

the book on cable theory and design is certainly not closed...the video posted by @sls141 has appealing comic-like graphics, but that is not science, just an individual stating opinions without scientific evidence.  Even at our "advanced" date, the science of how  wires conduct electricity(notice I did not say how electricity travels THROUGH wires) is still controversial...if you wish to read mind-challenging science, read the article shown on Jeff Smith's website from FIDELIUM  CABLES.  Regardless, how many reading this truly understand the science?   one can be practical....what sounds better?  That should be what matters, right?

     According to SOCRATES: "The only true wisdom is knowing when you know nothing."

     My version: "In order to know you don’t know anything you have to know something."

     Here are examples, in response to a previous post (mrskeptic’s):

https://thermalprocessing.com/freezing-out-the-competition/#

     and:

https://www.thefabricator.com/tubepipejournal/article/shopmanagement/cryogenic-processingadispelling-the-myths-mysteries

     iow: YES, cryo treatment DOES fundamentally change the molecular/crystalline structure of metals (as well as a plethora of other materials).

     The problem with naysayers* isn’t that they’re ignorant (ie: that, "actual metallurgist)".    It’s that they, "know" so much that’s outdated and simply wrong.

                 *Those still basing their opinions on 1800s Electrical Theory

     More to the point of the potential affect of cryo treatments on our cables/components/systems:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/materials-research-society-internet-journal-of-nitride-semiconductor-research/article/improved-low-resistance-contacts-of-niau-and-pdau-to-ptype-gan-using-a-cryogenic-treatment/F9F3004B4AB0272292BB7D0122B63429

@sls141

I appreciate the effort but he’s only giving his opinion. First of all, who is he and what are his qualifications as a metallurgist or other scientist that deals with wiring and electrical measurements? Second of all, when he says simply bending a wire changes it's properties and therefore changes how your speakers will sound, he loses all credibility with me.

Several years ago I talked with an actual metallurgist and specifically asked him about cryogenic treatment of wires changing the crystal structure and when he stopped laughing, he said *if* that happens, the crystals will go back to their normal structure when they return to room temperature.

Until there is blind testing that shows differences more frequently than simple chance, it’s all just an opinion, and that goes for anything in the audio world.

whitestix,

To me the biggest improvements in my system has been with the AC power. That is the usage of dedicated lines, quality outlets, wire, grounding, power conditioning and the power cables. Get the foundation right and the audio equipment can perform at its best.

On the cost of the power cables, I’m thinking the high cost is also due to all the research that is conducted along with the trial and error. The materials are first rate.

ozzy

Most of the cost is in the economy of scale.  They won't sell a lot of these high-end cables, so to make up for that, they have to charge a lot more.

Wow, ~$4400 for a power cord, $1200 more than the cost of my Don Sachs' Kootenai KT88 amp.  It is vastly too expensive for my budget, but good for you finding joy with the cord.

fiesta75,

Perhaps you have purchased used cables in the past. But even with used cables they seem to take a couple of days to settle.

I must say though these Dragons were the most dramatic in change from break in.

ozzy

tuberist,

It is strange that initially they sounded pretty good until they were used for a couple of days, they took a nosedive in sound quality. Then after a week they sound better than originally.

ozzy

asctim,

Very interesting.

ozzy

Sorry, no break in needed for power cables. Other audio equipment yes but AC power cables absolutely not.🙃

Ozzy,

I had the same experience you described using lesser priced Audioquest power cords and conditioner unit. I am using a blizzard power cable from the wall plugged into the audio quest 1200 conditioner.

Ozzy,

I had the same experience you described  using lesser priced Audioquest power cords and conditioner unit

I don’t think about it too much. I do try to be gentle with cables because they certainly can suffer from wear and tear if they’re moved around a lot, mainly from the casing or insulator getting worn out. If a copper or silver strand is thin enough it can be flexed adequately to get it plugged in or unplugged without causing any significant crystal deformation. Enough cycles of flex below deformation can eventually lead to structural changes but you should be able to get millions, or maybe billions or even perhaps trillions of non deformation flexes out of a wire before it starts to degrade in a significant way. That’s why springs in scales can stay accurate for so long. For me, deformation that leads to obvious work hardening and embrittlement occurs with solid core wires, or multi strand when I’m working with bare wire ends and clamping them down into the amp or speaker.

asctim,

Don’t think it too much. Unplugging the cabling probably has some effect, I have never noticed much about just moving them around. However, once I route the cables it is rare that I move them.

ozzy

curiousjim,

The Dragon source was purchased new. At about the same time I installed a Peak 4 on my Entreq Silver Tellus.

ozzy

@mrskeptic This video explained it IMO. Jump to about 11 minutes in to speed it along. At about 24:30 minutes in, he explains break in.

What this video is suggesting to me is that cables are a terrible idea. Every time you move them at all you're degrading them in an audible way! What we need are cables that are built with the proper bend to fit between our components and then held in stiff harnesses to prevent them from being bent again. If we want to rearrange our components we're just going to have to buy new cables. Oh, but then there's the little flex cables that lead to the voice coil. They're being vibrated and flexed constantly. Those should be easily replaceable as they must be degrading at a rapid rate. How many hours are they good for? 

OZ,

 I am confused. If the cord was used, shouldn’t it be already broken in and the DBS is supposed to last as long as the batteries are good, plus about  three weeks. 

What was the other change you made at the same time?

JD

Also, in more than 40 years of reading about stereo stuff, I’ve never heard of something sounding worse after the supposed break-in. Why is that?

Have you ever heard that a car engine runs worse after broken in in 40 years of your life?

Thanks for all the posts thus far.

Just a little of history. I have owned several iterations of PS Audio power plants. I also have owned Acoustic Revive, Shunyata, Purist, Synergistic etc.

The AudioQuest Niagara 7000 has been the most impressive of all of them.

The same with power cords, I have owned all the ones mentioned and lots of other top named power cords. Including some of my DIY and many specialty ones.

The combo of the Dragons with the Niagara 7000 provides the synergy that was probably lacking with the others.

ozzy

@havocman , good post 

“ you should try power cords from companies like Harmonic technology acoustic Zen or any other companies that use OCC single Crystal, audioquest charges an arm and a leg for it other companies use the same wire and much cheaper audioquest is ripping people off big time Harmonic technology Neotech and a few others have much more reasonable prices for the same OCC single crystal wire.“

This is good news! A lot of people think previously owned gear has already been through the break-in process. There is always  a “settling in” period where it sounds great at first, then things get a little squirrel-e before it finally blossoms. Not realizing this at first I too  have gone on a “hunt” for some other culprit. Even thought I now understand this I still do that; every time. I can relate. 

If someone selling the item points out why it works then it isn't snake oil.  (just pointing a a common flaw in logic here). --Jerry

Mr Skeptic,  PS Audio does some great videos addressing this.  It is not snake oil. It is complex physics.   Happy trails!

@mrskeptic This video explained it IMO. Jump to about 11 minutes in to speed it along. At about 24:30 minutes in, he explains break in.

Can anyone here (or anywhere else for that matter) explain in a scientific way, how electrons traveling over, around, and through wiring of any type, change the properties of said wire to supposedly improve the sound?

Also, in more than 40 years of reading about stereo stuff, I've never heard of something sounding worse after the supposed break-in. Why is that?

well then Ozzy you should try power cords from companies like Harmonic technology acoustic Zen or any other companies that use OCC single Crystal, audioquest charges an arm and a leg for it other companies use the same wire and much cheaper audioquest is ripping people off big time Harmonic technology Neotech and a few others have much more reasonable prices for the same OCC single crystal wire.

I really like my Dragon HC power cord connecting to my power generator. To me this is the best place for it. I remember it took three weeks to reach the best sound. I am considering to buy a Dragon source power cord, if I can find a used one. You seemed to like the combination.