I’ve recently purchased Magico A3 speakers and a VPI Classic 2 SE turntable with an Ortofon Black 2M moving magnet cartridge. I have a Marantz SA 8005 CD/SACD player to play the few (maybe a hundred or so) CD’s in my possession. I’ve mostly vinyl albums and no streaming sources. I’m next going to upgrade my old amp/preamp purchased back in the late 70’s with a new, probably integrated, one and am starting to do some research.
Here’s where I need some tutoring. A lot has changed since the seventies with the advent of digital technology. As well as I need to learn more about amplification components in the high end of audio technology. I keep running across terms I don’t understand. I’ll give you a list and if someone would be kind enough to explain these basics I’d be obliged.
For instance I was reading about the Hegel H360 integrated amp that Magico’s Alon Wolf recommended for their A3’s. The review mentioned they were a Class A/B amp, another person commented Class A’s were better, and a third person said he didn’t care for Class D amps. What do these classes signify?
A second question is about DACs. I generally understand their purpose of the DAC, converting a digital to an analog signal. However my only digital device, the Marantz SA 8005 already has a DAC, ostensibly of good quality. The turntable ’s Ortofon cartridge would not need to play through a DAC, I presume. Would I bypass the CD’s players DAC if I purchase the higher quality Hegel H360 integrated amp?. Or could I find an equivalent integrated amp without an integral DAC?
On the other side of the equation I understand the turntable’s cartridge cannot play through the Hegel without first going through a phono stage. My old Phase Linear 4000 preamp you just plugged the turntables RCA cables into the back of the preamp and you were done. What’s that about? Do they make equivalent integrated amps to the Hegel H360 with integrated phono stages already in place, so I can just plug my turntable in as I’ve been able to do before. The amps don’t seem to be well integrated at all if you have to add a pricey phono stage to make them work, and end up having an extra DAC. That’s just me whining.
Third question is what are monoblocks, how are they used, and what are their advantages to a system? They were used at one of my speaker auditions.
I figured out the answer to what amplifier damping was myself, so I’m sparing you that one, but what does the term impedance mean? I keep coming across that.
Thank goodness I don’t have to figure out the cabling nightmare yet. Thanks for any help.
Kosst_amojan, Class A is hardly 'ideal'. It suffers from very poor efficiency, shortened component life [heat is a killer], enormous size and higher $/w.
ALL amplifier classes suffer from intrinsic failings. The key is to forget about theory and concentrate on getting a good match to the loudspeakers that does not accentuate the myriad other system faults and satisfies the owner's prejudices.
Mike, since this a long term purchase, pay attention to thermal management and electrolytic capacitor quality. Ideally, the equipment should be actively cooled, preferably with thermostatically controlled fans to maintain constant internal temperature. Quality fans with well designed blades are inaudible from less than a foot away when run at low RPM.
Sorry, but class A is most definitely the ideal form of audio amplification.
I completely disagree. As I have said before, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. A full "FET Class A" amp will sound different than a "Bipolar Class A" amp and will sound different than a standard "Class AB" amp, (obviously Class D sounds different as well). They all introduce a different sonic signature to the mix. Personally, I have not heard any full Class A amp that I really liked, but many others love them for the full/round and warm sound - or liquidy if you are looking at a bipolar Class A circuit.
Builder3, glad you had good luck with your used amp. I’d likely be the one with bad luck taking the same chance. I think my Dad’s many years of selling used cars taught me to stick with new, so you’re sure what you are getting. His used cars came with 90 Day Guarantees, or whenever you pulled out of the lot’s parking lot, whichever came first. Unlike his customers, he thought that was real funny. Even new equipment you can’t be sure about. I was shocked to find the Norwegian labelled Hegel I was about to spend $6000 on was manufactured in China, the home of poor quality everything.
Yysantabarbara, thanks for the link. I’ll check them out in short order.
Headphonedreams, same with your links. Thanks
Ieales, i will pay attention to thermal management and electrolytic capacitor quality. I’’ll have to learn how to do the latter though. I’d just emailed Hegel about the former a couple of days ago and got an incomplete response.
Auxinput, just when this was getting a little less confusing...
Kosst thinks that his Pass Labs F5 amp is the greatest thing in the world. And for him, that may be true. He has also touted that his system with his Focal speakers can beat almost anything out there. That perception may have some truth in it, but there is also the element of system synergy. The Pass full "Class A" circuit will have a very neutral sound, but also warm and a very thick midrange/midbass. The Focal speakers tend to have a somewhat thin and hollow sounding midrange/midbass. The combination of these two things is an example of how the thin sounding Focal is compensating for the extra thick sounding midrange of the Pass (or vice-versa depending on how you look at it). --- In looking at other amps, I just heard a set of mid level Focals with the new Classe Audio amplifiers. They are Class AB monoblocks and it definitely showed how the Focals were somewhat thin/hollow in the midrange and, therefore, seemed too bright because there was too much up top (in the high frequencies). That’s a Class AB amp. The Bryston amps (which are about the closest thing to Class B) would be a severely bad match with the Focal speakers (and a lot of other speakers as well).
---- The Pass Labs full "Class A" amps may not be a great match for every speaker or every listener. In this case, you’ll need to think about what speakers you have and what sources and then decide what kind of sound your ultimately after.
Sorry Kosst, but I have heard both FET and Bipolar devices and they definitely have different sounds. The FET usually has a more warm/fuzzy texture, but they can be relatively clear in some cases. The bipolar are ultimately cleaner sounding and have a completely different sound when biased into Class A. Bipolar devices are sometimes chosen over FET because of the distortion characteristics of FET.
Yysantabara, I checked out the new Mark Levinson’s amp link you provided. they sounded perfect until I got to the price, a couple thousand or so out of my already inflated price range or $5000 to $6000. I might have jumped up another $1000 for the integral mm/mc phono stage, but can’t responsibly go to $8500 for that. Close but no cookie. Thank you much though.
Skyscraper Although I understand your reservations about Chinese manufactured audio products, not all of audio equipment is of bad quality. Line Magnetic Audio makes very good products, just look in these audio forums. Primaluna products are made in China but many audiophiles all over the world really like the products. Among just a few audio companies that have gear either designed somewhere else and built in China or Taiwan....or designed and built in China or Taiwan; BMC, Sonus Faber, Krell, Classe, Bada, Doge, Jolida, Opera Consonance, Musical Paradise, Lawrence Audio, Melody, Auralic, Aerial Acoustics, Dussan, TAD, KEF, Luxman, Musical Fidelity, B&W, Cambridge Audio, YBA.
2psyop, I'm really concerned with the quality control there and would feel like a fool if I went to that well again and ended up with more Chinese junk, especially at such high price points. I am very often disturbed by Chinese products breaking down at home, everything from electronics to plumbing parts.
On the social conscience end of it, you know Chinese products are so cheap because their employees are paid so little. They don't have labor unions over there, and thousands and thousands of companies worldwide have abandoned their own work forces to take advantage of that. So I try to avoid Chinese stuff out of self interest, as well as to have a clear conscience.
I'm old enough to have known some of the old union workers who paid a great personal price to fight for decent wages here. Now you only see vacant abandoned factories, and innumerable dying small towns and cities all across the nation where they worked and lived. Their sacrifices went for nothing as their companies closed up and did an end-run to China. It's no joke, and a worldwide tragedy. I honestly wouldn't want to touch products from any of the companies you named above if there is any possible alternative.
You might also consider German T+A . I have no idea of how they sound, but the rumor is - very good. They have a range of models. Don't know if they are all made in Germany, though. I don't want Chinese either. As for South Korean, I didn't mean Samsung, I meant Allnic - tube equipment of very high quality. Still, my Samsung phone has been working flawlessly for years. I guess, Accuphase is out of your reach.
Buy two good books Jim Smith - Get Better Sound ( this will save me a trip to setup your speakers ) Robert Harley’s book should cover DAC, class A. A/b and D
i assume you demoed the A3, Treo and the Devore with integrated amps in your general budget range, what were they ?
And.... i used to be able to break phase linear 400 by looking at them cross eyed.... i would use caution before I hooked them up to you brand spank new A3
@skyscraper Some lucky person bought the ML 585 I have mentioned a few times so that item is no longer listed. It was listed at $6400 used. Now the more recent links I have posted are for the new ML 5000 series integrated that have slightly less power than the 585. They will not be released until Q1 2019, but the MSRP is 7000-8500. Not sure people pay MSRP on these.
I only keep repeating my self on the A3 + ML combo because it is really some poerful, smooth, and FATIGUE free sound coming from that
Jack, at Command Performance we talked about the Hegel H360 a little bit, but the focus was mostly on the speakers being demoed.
Inna, I was reading up on the Accuphase amps tonight, but they are priced too far over my $6000 upper limit.
Tomic60i. Thanks for the two book recommendations. I’ll have to find my notes from the demos to recall what equipment they used. I do remember the amps were around $10,000 at both places, which is higher priced than what I’ll be getting.
You know I’ve never had a single problem with the Phase Linear 400’s since I got them forty or so years ago. The Phase 4000 preamp I’ve had some issues with losing the right channel. I used to bring it in right to their factory near home then in Seattle. I have been thinking, like you, that it might be pushing my luck and a potential disaster to hook the Magicos up to the old Phase 400. That’s primarily why I’m looking into getting a new integrated amp so soon, to take them both out of the picture before the back ordered Magico’s arrive in February.
I’ll look up the rest of the manufacturers you listed tomorrow that I haven’t reviewed already. I also contacted one of the VP’s at Magico to refer someone to me who could make another recommendation on amps, since I didn’t care for Alon Wolf’s Chinese amp recommendation.That should go over poorly. I should have asked for him directly now that I’m thinking about it. Oh well.
Yysantabarbara, the new Mark Levinson, if I’m recalling the right model, was a bit too pricey at $8500 for me. Thanks for the thought though.
These are all very good brands, but I suspect that some of them won't offer the wattage that you need with the Magico's within the price point you specify. For instance, you could get Belles preamp+monoblocks new and within your budget, but that's "only" 112W into 8ohms.
Kosst, did you read what I wrote? I said they are colored relative to another design. This applies to all devices, especially loudspeakers.
I always read the entire article and comprehend all measurements and graphs. One often has to read between the lines for a reviewers preferences and biases.
Neutral is in the ear of the listener. Tonally, they may be but phase, no.
The Anthem STR Integrated is built in Canada. Not sure how well it goes with Magico but it does 200w at 8 ohm , 400w at 4ohm , 550w at 2 ohm. It runs $4500 new. They also have power amps in your price range with more power. There should be Anthem dealers in your area might be able to get a home demo with your speakers.
The Quad ESL's are now made in China; I bought some. As soon as they were out of warrantee I opened them up to take a look and begin to modify. I couldn't help but notice the build quality.
The Quad 2805's were a bit rough, but the 2905's were of good fit and finish. Parts quality was pretty much as it always had been, that is, could be better. I made it better, it sounded better.
Not all Chinese stuff is junk. Quite a lot of it is quite good, as the Quads testify.
Meh... Some like to make big mountains out of the mole hill of phase. It doesn’t seem to matter all that much.
Except to those who have heard properly phased systems and know how a sound stage should be presented because they created it.
I recorded and mixed on minimum phase error systems and have had minimum phase error home systems for over 40 years. I can’t make it through one cut on systems with phase all over the map. Sadly, for me, Focal’s fall in that category. I auditioned several models @ Stereotypes in Portland.
And no amplification electronics, no matter how good, can do anything to fix phase errors.
The first time an enthusiast hears a correctly phased system, they never mention tonal balance. Adjectives like precise, accurate, musical sont les mots de jour.
Twoleftears, you're correct about the wattages after looking all these up.
DJones, I researched the
Anthem STR Integrated and added it to my short list. The ARC room correction function makes it interesting, Couple of others on my list also have that capability. I'm not sure how valuable an asset room correction might be relative to integrated amps without it. Don't know how well the Anthem STR's would synergize with the Magico A3's either. They certainly have the wattage and the best price point at $4500. When I get done with my short list maybe I'll post it and others can recommend which amp they'd prefer off it, and why, for use with the Magicos.
Terry9 and Schubert, there are no absolutes in manufacturing anywhere. I did look into the Quad's because I've always admired their sound, but they were out of my price range plus I'm so leery of Chinese manufacturing practices. Schubert, no doubt you're correct, but the pay over there is generally abysmal by our standards, which is why the manufacturers are there or Mexico in the first place.
Jafant, thanks again, stay tuned for coming attractions. Tomic60- Tim the Toolman always said, "More power!"
Chinese can steal better than anyone else, even Russians and Americans, their intelligence is so good. That's how they learned and developed their at times impressive capabilities. Some of them also have a strong work ethics. Yes, they can make good stuff.
So how about buying something used like a Boulder integrated or higher end separates and having them sent to the manufacturer for refurbishing and possible warranty extension?
If I remember correctly, the Chinese were handed modern technology with aerospace deals under Reagan. It was all in the open, above-board and, what must now be obvious to everyone, was not to US advantage.
Twoleftears, thanks for recommending the Coda CSiB. I hadn’t heard of them before, but read it’s designers worked at Legacy and Pass Labs before, which is likely a good pedigree. Tough to find reviews on them though. They sound interesting and made in the USA to boot.
They’re quite powerful.at 800 watts into 4 ohms, like a modern day Ampzilla. At $6000 they do make the top end of my price range. I’ll keep looking for reviews. They list Audio Doctor as a dealer, but Coda isn’t listed on at least their New Jersey site as a product they carry. The NJ Audio Doctor writes in here frequently so I thought maybe they’d know something about them relative to other integrateds on my short list. Thanks.
Bjesian, appreciate the suggestion on getting a Boulder refurbished, but I’m going to stick with new to avoid hassles.
Terry9, no doubt true.
Jones4music, be nice. If people here on Audiogon can’t help with high end audio suggestions, I’m not sure where else to turn for assistance. This stuff is expensive for the average person, and without an audio engineering backgroud, I can’t ill afford to make completely uneducated, if not just plain dumb, choices.
With all of your suggestions and some research, I’ve got my list of possible amps narrowed down to ten potential choices. A couple of Chinese made ones were left in due to exemplary reviews, albeit with a little trepidation. I’ve winnowed the list down on the basis of price being between $4500 and $6500, a stretch beyond my self imposed $6000 limit, and having the recommended power, 50-300 watts into 4 ohms, to feed the power hungry Magico A3’s.
My interest is in playing mostly records and CD’s, no streaming media. Being able to plug my Smart TV into it would be okay too for listening to movies. My system, as aforementioned, will be Magico A’3 speakers, a VPI Classic 2 SE turntable, and a Marantz SA 8005 CD/SACD player with integral DAC.
I’ll likely have to bump the Krell off the list as it’s going to be $7000 in the US, as opposed to the $6500 price I saw listed in Europe when I calculated the exchange rate. For some reason the McIntosh MA 6700 is listed on the McIntosh site as not available in North America, so that may have to go too. I’m not sure how much value should be placed on the room correction feature included with the Anthem (ARC) and Lyngdorf (Room Perfect) entries either, which make choosing a bit more difficult.
I know it’s a lot to ask, but If any of you can help focus the below list on which amps you perceive should be the front runners on a short list, I’d be appreciative.
Mike, Since you decided to consider 'Chinese' Hegel, I would also consider 'Chinese' Luxman. Power figures do not tell the whole story even within power figures. Older Gryphon Class A 100 watt/ch/8ohm amp sounds much more powerful than older 600 watts/ch Krell, not to mention incomparably better. Besides, you need a good phono stage. And also, almost everything breaks from time to time, manufacturer's support is important.
Inna, I read yesterday Luxman, pulled out of manufacturing in China. Anyway, their products and Gryphons are well out of my price range since I'm only buying new . However with Xmas coming up you might keep me in mind for a Gryphon Diablo 120 with their optional phono stage, though.
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