Here is the can filled with opinions. It's been hashed and rehashed to infinity and beyond with no clear result. Since I am a seeker of truth I'll post my thoughts here for the yea and naysayers to debate over. Question is: Are expensive speaker or any other cable in a system worth the exorbitant cost over a reasonably priced cable loom? I thought I'd experiment myself to find out. My comparison is between Transparent Ultra cable loom and Blue Jeans cable loom on a pure stereo system comprised of Proceed PAV, Proceed PDSD, Krell Kav 250, Musical Fidelity A3cd, Sony Ps4300 TT and B&W 803D2 speakers. All sources were used by this experiment using identical playback material. Cables had in excess of 200 hrs burn time and all were identical in lenght. The only variation were the connector manufacturers. One change that occurred during this 4 week long endeavor was that I'm firmly seated on the sharpest picket on the fence. My result is that I'm now a believer that there are audible differences in cables. I also believe that these differences are minute and one has to really listen carefully and for a long time to discern these differences. Now to the crutch of the matter, $$$$$, As we all know Transparent Cables would reside in the upper tier of Audio Cable expense. Blue Jeans Cable on the other hand falls into the lowest tier of expense (well maybe not lowest but low nontheless ) One would think then that the Transparent would be far superior to the BJs. Not really! Yes the highs were a little cleaner, mids a little tighter and lows a tad more pronounced but not by as much as one would expect. Soundstage was somewhat more open and airy and depth was somewhat more defined with the higher priced cable but again less than one would expect.
Now for my personal opinion regarding the cable debate: expensive cable looms are slightly better than reasonable priced looms, if a dollar equals a penny to you then by all means opt for the higher priced loom, if a penny equals a penny don't be ashamed for opting for the best you can do. The differences are so minute that it's not worth going into debt over. BOTH looms sounded superb on my test system and I would be happy with either loom.
Now let the debate begin, just know I'm a fence sitter and not in one camp or the other
After many years of changes and upgrades I ended up with all cables (interconnects, speaker’s and coax) of Tellurium Q Ultra Black ,fortunately my dealer had some second hand ones which I bought with a substantial discount, this cables are very expensive and I couldn’t afford to buy new ones .It’s realy a nirvana with this cables in my system which sounds now as many times more expensive systems than mine . So do cables matter ? - Yes !!!
I myself have discovered MG Audio Design interconnects, at first from comments made by Arnie Nudell about them-that he himself found them to be he best avaliable at any price. Latr I found out that Paul McGown of PSAudio also uses them, and also that at a meeting of the Colorado Audio Society, that the members present for a demonstration favored the MG Audio Design interconnects over top of the line Nordhost Odin 2 models. That the MG Audio Design top of the line interconnects are $1600 for a one foot pair helped. But still they were too much for my budget. Then I found out that a half meter pair of them goes for only $900 a pair. To cut to the chase, they are easily the best interconnects that I have ever used. Far superior to my pair of Audience 24AUse pair. Anyway, these are not just good interconnects. They are easily state of the art. I presently ue an McIntosh MR74 tuner for most of my music. The audio reproduction that I am able to achieve listning to local FM rdio broadcasts in Boulder Colordo is simply incredible. I do not need to use my OPPO players or phonoplayback system to achieve audio nirvana. That is a simple truth. Of course one must have the power cord, power conditioning plus speaker wire combination to be able to achieve the total effect. Overall it can end up to be a costly endeavor but with careful selection it can be achieved. I am also using a bunch of Audioquest power cords, a JPS power cord for my 2 OPPO's and two Audioquest Niagara strips. Fortunatly I am able to use a one foot pair of MG Audio Design's top of the line speaker wires-which go for $900, combined with runs of Jenna Lab's 18 gage hook up wires for my speaker wire configuration. In total, my modest audio system is able to achieve results much greater than could be expected otherwise. Anyway, overall I have spent a lot of money on my wire-power conditioning combination, but at a level of audio reproduction simply amazing. Simply, if one could hear my present audio system just on FM radio, they would be easily impressed. To be able to get the quality of audio reproduction from FM radio-you would have tohear it to believe it. I have found out over the decades that if one is able to get a superior sound quality from ones audio system using FM radio as the audio surce, then the higher resplution audio sources themself will truly be able to do their stuff to truly exceptional levels.
Most educated, experienced and knowledgeable audiophiles would opine that if OP knew which cables he was listening to, his test is invalid and of little merit.
Where to begin? 1. Tin clad copper? Yigads! 2. Yes the better the quality of the conductor AND the dielectric mated to high quality connectors and guess what? High quality, high functioning cables. 3. Spending ungodly sums on cables relative to the quality of your gear is silly. Perspective! Life rule: Keep things in proper perspective. Find a balance to where and on what you spend your money. Example: Having a fabulous amplifier connected to poorly designed and thus poor performing speakers is madness. Balance, perspective.
I agree with cables being of lesser influence. I thought the same about streaming devices. They are just an inbetween between network and dac. This thought has been proven all wrong. I have experienced that the quality of network streamers matters a lot. A Sonore microRendu give a huge upgrade in sound quality over Pioneer and Marantz streamers.
So my first venture into some what higher end cables, was a pair of JPS interconnects. This pair is some sort of aluminum copper hybrid which sounded smooth and open and better than what I was using. Soon after I purchased JW Audio solid core OFC copper speaker cables and some of his stranded interconnects. These were reasonably priced and to me had a cleaner more solid and hard hitting dynamic sound to them with the speaker cables. The interconnects seemed more transparent.
After a conversation I had with a rep from a well known hifi cable maker I decided to stick with high grade copper. Further research with my wire supplier and their manufactures for the guitar pickups we make at our shop got me on the trail for thicker gauges for speaker wire. The difference between OFC and ETP is not audible and very similar on paper. As far as the connectors go, I just take them out of the equation.
To to me the solid core sounds a bit more forward and harder, were as the stranded is some what softer and mellower. I suppose it depends on the gauge and materials. It's some what subjective and I guess my point is if your happy with copper you non't have to spend much for quality materials.
I do believe that cables make a difference to some degree, but the law of diminish returns is an immutable law. I think I perceived some improvement in the low frequency response of my main system cabling it with Supra Ply 3.4 speaker cable and a more open sound using vintage WE 16 ga. cloth-covered tin-clad copper wire in my bedroom system. Neither set of cables cost over $150. Purchasing a run of speaker cable that cost more than a new car is unfathomable, yet many do it. And then there are the astral travelers like GK that tapes rocks to his cables and puts crystals the top of his gear in a feeble attempt to improve the sound quality. It would only be laughable, but I suspect he does a fair trade peddling these foolish tweaks to an undiscerning public. In the same vein are the "fuse-heads" who tie themselves in knots over the directionality outrageously expensive fuses. This is purely "confirmation bias". The level of self-deception that audiophiles will indulge in is shocking. High anxiety runs rampantly through our ranks. Frankly, Blue Jeans cable is more than good enough, but there is better wire if you have the dough. Just give it a listen and decide for yourself. And make sure you can get your money back if you don't fancy its performance.
I don't think I have ever seen the issue of old (older) age that we all are living, and how that affects what we hear, or think we hesr? I have been in this game for a long time, back to the Sansui and Fisher days. I have had my hearing test done at work every year for 44 years. There has been a gradual decline in my hearing. I know some is from the loud music, cars, shooting guns, and of course the work environment. The getting older is also a part of that, but I don't see anyone addressing that here when talking about what they hear from their systems. I believe you reach a point where the differences that you think you hear, are pretty minute. To each his own. I don't know how cables can be truely tested, without have them on a true A/B test switch, where you flip from one cable to another. Better audio shops used to alwsys have their better speakers set up so that you could sit and A/B them instantly on the same music. That way always got me to the best sounding spesker, IMO, that I could afford at that time. I did once have a shop loan me three speakers for a home two week demo in my own home, so that was good for me to do. I just hope all of the people here don't get too old the hear these improvements in their systems.
The first problem with your experiment is that the Transparent Ultra’s need a lot more time to break in than 200 hours. I just went through this with two pairs of Transparent Super’s. Had to burn them in for 300 hours before they finally settled in. I would bet the Ultra’s need 300-400 hours. That said, the difference in sound after break in was unbelievable! Almost like I bought a new component. I have no doubt that jumping to the Ultra would have improved the sound to an even higher level. If you can afford it, go for it.
Hi guys krell b&w sony this equipment is not the equipment ready to perform any tests, just waste time, better jump on bike and go to park to enjoy natural sources of sound 😄
For me Transparent did not pull away from the other less expensive cables until you get to Reference level or higher. Time Portal Reference cables was a less expensive cable that competed with Transparent at the Ultra level in XLR. enjoyPete
The better my system got, the more of a difference tweaks have made.
Active shielding on vs off is a pronounced difference.
Just getting my cables off the floor made a difference, too.
Now I've fully 'tismed out, and my speaker cables only have 3 points of contact: the two terminals and a porcelain electric fence insulator on a 3' wooden dowel at its midpoint.
- some speakers can sound different when cables with different complex impedances are used, so go to a rent / return cable place and try different ones - your manf. may have suggestions too
- DACs need very low noise, so buy a LPS, buy or make a star-quad DC power cable for it, and galvanically isolate the inputs ==> or buy a DAC that is designed to be immune from any such effects - either way no need for a fancy USB cable - but if you do want one check out the Lush
- buying expensive analog interconnects is woo-woo; get some good balanced ones and buy balanced components
- do not wast $$ on fancy AC cables - buy well-designed components and an isolation transformer to solve any noise there
* no affiliation with any consumer audio co.; none of the above will be as big an effect on SQ as expensive, top-notch speakers, room treatments, or building a new listening room...
most importantly - ignore the trolls whose majors in interpretive dance did not equip them to understand any of this
....and under all you can now include a new cable serving from TEO Audio....inspired by non-other than our very own mashedpotato-11 (a.k.a. randy-11 ) we are going cook up a new series of cables filled with our own special , you guessed it, mashed potatoes.....initial testing has shown them to be superbly rich and very smooth with no lumps ....can be ordered "au naturel", "lightly buttered" or the "la speciale" that comes with hot peppers.....
....a complete loom of the TEO Audio MPs will be just a dollop under $1,000,000(USD)....a delicious deal considering how yummy the potatoes are.....
>>>>>I suspect one might actually be better off using different brands, to allow any anomalies in say, frequency response, to average out. Just as one cannot generalize about copper and silver conductors, it depends on where they’re placed. Certainly cryogenics changes the whole cable comparison on its head as does directionality. Fortunately for the average Joe most high end cable companies pay attention to direction and Cryo their cables. Due to break in times and the issue with plugging and unplugging cables during comparisons, especially of new cables, I’d say conclusions are oft way premature and lead to many toss ups.
I totally agree with this. I think "too" many cables from one company can create anomalies. My interconnects and speaker cables are Morrow and they haven't caused any issues. My power cords have always been an array of manufacturers because simply I can change the flavor or tone. Yes one can with interconnects but I think its easier with power cords overall.
"Third, It’s better to use same level of all your system cables and better of the same brand, mismatch of cables can make things worst. Forth, the most important test if the cable is right to your system is your own demo only. Let your ears to decide what is good for you."
>>>>>I suspect one might actually be better off using different brands, to allow any anomalies in say, frequency response, to average out. Just as one cannot generalize about copper and silver conductors, it depends on where they’re placed. Certainly cryogenics changes the whole cable comparison on its head as does directionality. Fortunately for the average Joe most high end cable companies pay attention to direction and Cryo their cables. Due to break in times and the issue with plugging and unplugging cables during comparisons, especially of new cables, I’d say conclusions are oft way premature and lead to many toss ups.
On a related subject, is anyone using interconnects of different brands connected in series?
By making a test with 2 cables and jump to a conclusion that there is no much difference between cheap cable to more expensive one is not more than a false generalization .
First, there is no necessary correlation between the cost of the cable to its quality. Second,You need the match the right cable to your own system one cable can be good for one system and bad for another. Third,It’s better to use same level of all your system cables and better of the same brand ,mismatch of cables can make things worst. Forth, the most important test if the cable is right to your system is your own demo only .let your ears to decide what is good for you.
How much do they matter and how much should they cost? The only possible answer is "it depends".
In general. I’d reserve a fairly small % of overall budget for wires. The smaller you can get away with the better. After all, they are only wires. No rocket science needed there if all else is well.
Good quality wires made for pro use are always a safe bet if not sure how to cut through all the BS one will encounter with many products marketed mainly to audiophiles.
@twoleftears To follow up on your point, another way of looking at the "sweet spot" is expressed as "the law of diminishing returns." Finding equipment that is in line with your budget that gets you the maximum sonic performance for the amount of money spent, such that to get much better sound you would have to spend a great amount more than the component you selected. That is where you want to be. So there is a "sweet spot" within a specific category of components ie. amps, preamps etc. and also as you were eluding to, a "sweet spot" in a particular manufacturer's line. Specifically, this can be seen in a cable manufacturer's line where there is a cable that gives you most of the sonic virtues available at a price point and to significantly improve sonic performance would require a major jump up in that line to a prohibitively expensive offering.
What this does is call into question the notion of the "sweet spot", at least as far as cables are concerned. No, not your listening chair, but rather the price point in the "family" of products where performance and price are best balanced.
If you need to spend $5000 to hear even a minor significant improvement over $50, why ever spend $500? [numbers rounded for the sake of argument]
Only in the muddled mind of the cost benefit analyst is Honda best.
Yet, again delivery of the proven fact with some cheapy labeling. Label means nothing at least to me. Do you still go to yer mama's bed if yer scared at night boy or my assumption a-bit off axis?
"....it happens every time they open these worm cans, Taunto. They escape, burrow into their brains. and consume everything from ear to ear. All that's left is this strange knee-jerk response pattern...."
"No cure, Chemosavy?"
*Sigh* "Only one, so far. But everyone's tired of cleaning up after it. It's more humane to let nature do it for us...."
👺 kosst_amojan @geoffkait There you go again, spouting your ass-backwards BS. I’ll set you straight again... Honda is the company that made Ferrari rethink their entire approach to quality and luxury. The Honda NSX is widely considered to be one of the best sports cars ever built. The NSX was and still is the benchmark for quality and reliability in exotic sports cars. What’s more, their sport bikes are among the best in the world.
>>>Uh, kross, did your Thorazine stash suddenly dry up? I was obviously referring to cheap Hondas. You know, since the thread has to do with relatively inexpensive cables vs very expensive ones. Duh! If you’re attempting to be the new poster boy for the reading comprehension challenged you’re doing an excellent job!. 👱🏻 Maybe you need a time-out.
I concur with the OP, for the most part. There comes a point of diminishing returns. For those who can afford it, then sure, buy the super high priced model. For those of us with more limited means, we have to balance what we want with what we can afford, or at least can just justify expense-wise. B
@czarivey But Honda is not (rpt not) best. Actually, Honda is worst. Only in the muddled mind of the cost benefit analyst is Honda best. Do you work for the Government?
@hifiman5 Tough to quantify for most agree. You can profit on fool only if you're smarter and only if you can quantify. That's the core principle of economy to be smart in order to profit on fool and that's where mega-priced home stereo components including overly debated wires fit in.
@geoffkait Thanks for showing how to 'quantify' out why Honda is best.
Huh? A Ferarri is not 10 times faster than a Honda. And a Lamborgini is not (rpt not) twice as fast as a Ferarri. And a Koeniggseg is not 10 Faster than a Ferrari. Different strokes for different folks. There’s something for everyone. All you can eat, Baby!
Will a new $12,000 ARC power amp sound 600% better than a well known new $2000 tube power amp? How about a $12000 Pass Labs power amp. Will it sound 600% better than, say, a $2000 Marantz power amp?
The only right answer to that is to make sure that if you're paying 600% more that it will do job exactly 600% more or better and that's exactly what I do otherwise no deal at least from me. Make sense?
If there is not a difference in the sound of various brands/prices of cables, then why wouldn't we all just use the cheap stuff and invest more in music? One reason would be the "snooty" factor of liking the "idea" of having the high price spread in your system. Another reason why some invest tidy sums in cables is that in their system and circumstance they hear a difference that justifies, for them, their cable investments.
My cable purchase decisions have been based in part on reviews, price and most importantly, experience over decades in audiophiledom. Please know that I, in that time period, have made some significant purchase errors. Fortunately, most of those mistakes were rectified at little financial detriment.
Interconnects - I like the Audioquest line because of many years of experience with their cables and that whatever their current line is, their is a consistent sound revealed by their interconnects as you move up and down the line. The trick is finding the cable that best suits your sonic tastes with your system. Example. I tried AQ Columbias and Colorados from the line previous to their most current offerings. In being able to A/B them, the Colorados had a fuller more natural bass response than the Columbias. Their response sounded to me to be very linear up and down the frequency response of my system. Therefore, my system is wired with AQ Colorados.
Speaker Cables - Here is where I learned a new lesson a little over a year ago. When I traded in my Vandersteen 3A Signatures for Treo CT, the copper heavy earth series AQ cables that I had used successfully with the model 3s sounded too heavy in the mid-bass with the Treo CT. And yes, I experimented a great deal with speaker placement trying to find a spot in my room to tame the mid-bass beast. Didn't happen. Then came research time. I was reading hours each day all over the internet, investigating cables from myriad manufacturers, many of whom I was completely unfamiliar with.
It was in this forum however that I began reading more and more about Paul Laudati's Clear Day Audio cables. The more I read the more the adjectives used to describe the sound people were getting through them started to sound like what I was looking for. Next step. Call Paul. That I did. He was very forthcoming with information about his cables but made no wild promises about how they would do with my system. The price was very reasonable for what he was offering and so I took a leap, after even more research and purchased the Double Shotgun models. Fortunately for me, the mid-bass hump was gone and the treble smooth but opened up so for the first time I could truly hear what the CT tweeters were capable of.
In summary, experience, research, personal contact and anecdotal information from others informed my choice here. Isn't that what a lot of us learn from other's experiences here on this forum, kinda the whole point of spending time here. The bonus is of course, in those situations where sharing your audio travels can help someone else here on their journey.
Then develop a cable that doesn't need '' boxes'' and be done with it. Ohhhh wait just another excuse to charge $10,000 for a power cord. Get it right the fist time through correct engineering and design.
Ah Blindjim is the voice of wisdom and reasoning. Pay attention grasshoppa's because he knows what he is talking about. I think most of have been on this merry go round for awhile and I know there are doubters however, there ARE differences in cables. For example I can say there is quite a bit of difference between a HiDiamond P3 powercord and a Shunyata Python CX. Both are very good but very different. If one can't hear a difference or much of one between various brands then consider yourself VERY lucky haha. :)
There is no debate - everyone agrees that adding a filter (like the one in your Transparent cable) will change the sound often audibly. No debate at all.
I think the OP makes several really good points, certainly worth thinking about. Then again, I am a great fan of Blue Jeans cable products; extremely well built and great value for money.
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