Here is the can filled with opinions. It's been hashed and rehashed to infinity and beyond with no clear result. Since I am a seeker of truth I'll post my thoughts here for the yea and naysayers to debate over. Question is: Are expensive speaker or any other cable in a system worth the exorbitant cost over a reasonably priced cable loom? I thought I'd experiment myself to find out. My comparison is between Transparent Ultra cable loom and Blue Jeans cable loom on a pure stereo system comprised of Proceed PAV, Proceed PDSD, Krell Kav 250, Musical Fidelity A3cd, Sony Ps4300 TT and B&W 803D2 speakers. All sources were used by this experiment using identical playback material. Cables had in excess of 200 hrs burn time and all were identical in lenght. The only variation were the connector manufacturers. One change that occurred during this 4 week long endeavor was that I'm firmly seated on the sharpest picket on the fence. My result is that I'm now a believer that there are audible differences in cables. I also believe that these differences are minute and one has to really listen carefully and for a long time to discern these differences. Now to the crutch of the matter, $$$$$, As we all know Transparent Cables would reside in the upper tier of Audio Cable expense. Blue Jeans Cable on the other hand falls into the lowest tier of expense (well maybe not lowest but low nontheless ) One would think then that the Transparent would be far superior to the BJs. Not really! Yes the highs were a little cleaner, mids a little tighter and lows a tad more pronounced but not by as much as one would expect. Soundstage was somewhat more open and airy and depth was somewhat more defined with the higher priced cable but again less than one would expect.
Now for my personal opinion regarding the cable debate: expensive cable looms are slightly better than reasonable priced looms, if a dollar equals a penny to you then by all means opt for the higher priced loom, if a penny equals a penny don't be ashamed for opting for the best you can do. The differences are so minute that it's not worth going into debt over. BOTH looms sounded superb on my test system and I would be happy with either loom.
Now let the debate begin, just know I'm a fence sitter and not in one camp or the other
We haven't designed our electronics to work with a particular type or brand of cable. BAT electronics are wonderful at revealing cable differences and at providing a high level of performance with even modestly priced cables. Let past experience, your budget, and your ears be your guide. Victor khomenko
Hush your mouth! The cable debate has been going on since around 1980. Maybe longer. And it’s not about to stop now. It has legs, Baby! Witness all the cable threads. The debate whether no cables at all is better than any cables is just a subset of the cable debate. I don’t use cables and I don’t use fuses or power cords. Alas! Am I not part of the debate, too!? I can certainly imagine there will be debates about what kind of wireless is the best. See, we’re in luck! The cable debate is not going to end any time soon. Horray!
We have already entered the age of wireless audio and about to see the advent of high end floor standing wireless speakers. That should render ‘cable matters’ debate moot but I have no doubts that naysayers will find something else to dissect and criticize.
Speaking of wireless speakers, look out for Aurender line up of High Fidelity Wireless battery-powered active speakers next year. I heard the mini monitor version at RMAF 2017 and they had a very nice sound and cool form factor.
"A smart guy once said: "When confronted with the truth, believers do not want to hear about it. They want to remain in the magical world of fantasy where they think they can hear improvements in their wire...."
An even smarter guy once said, "When confronted with the truth, non-believers do not want to hear about it. They want to remain in the magical world of fantasy where they think they cannot hear improvements in their wire..."
I agree with gilatgh...this particular thread has gotten sorta boring, useless and off topic (for the most part). This will likely be my last as I get too many emails anyway and, unlike some here, I have other personal interests.
I think "our" point is there is no true science in exotic cables and wires. I've never seen anywhere where a manufacturer or cable designer actually designs a cable product to "fix" an issue that is not already taken care of with good quality basic connects. "We" believe it it mostly about showmanship and having cable "accessories" that look cool, beefy and cost more so they visually mate well with cool, beefy high-end components.
A smart guy once said: "When
confronted with the truth, believers do not want to hear about it. They want to
remain in the magical world of fantasy where they think they can hear
improvements in their wire, often arrived at by making listening tests without
adequate controls or understanding of the problems involved including speaker
impedance and amplifier stability. One of the prime tools in creating such a
faith for the average consumer is by capitalizing on fear and ignorance as in
many other things that aren’t readily apparent. There is fear that the wire
currently in use is not good enough. There is ignorance because most people do
not have scientific knowledge in this area and lack adequate measuring
equipment to prove otherwise."
So....saying you think it "sounds better" might please your ears and justify your expense, but it will never be a good enough reason to qualify as an adequate argument.
kosst_amojan @lalitk Are you blind or just stupid? Here’s exactly what I posted just 2 hours ago...
"Just so we’re clear, cables do sound very, very slightly different, they do NOT burn in, and you CAN measure them. Anyone saying different is just lying, scamming, or nuts."
How exactly do you get "they make no difference" out of that rather declarative statement? My end game is to dispell the snake oil and myths a click of you are obsessed with bringing to the table. I’m here to demand you prove your silly claims with more evidence than "I hear it".
>>>>>To be fair there is - for all intents and purposes - no real difference between the language, "very very slight difference" and "no difference" in the sound. The naysayers say there are no differences OR the differences are too small to matter. You are obviously in the naysayer camp so why all the wiggling and angst? The proponents say the differences are not subtle or are quite large. You were obviously just trying to CYA. Your fake outrage is also transparent, as usual. Obvious one can measure some things, like resistance, and maybe channel separation and SNR, but not emotion, or musicality or soundstage height, things of that nature. Try to keep up with the discussion.
Well now, we certainly got off track. Bickering, insults etc. Is that what this forum is all about? Can'T we just share our own experiences and call it a day?
> clique, not click > maybe call the group CCP (for Cable Clown Posse)
blindjim > auto correct got me there. Sorry. CCP works. However, Having to spell out posse could be an issue to if not very, very careful. Adding one more ‘C’ opens another bag of annelids.
Gee. That’s gotta qualify as succinct. I’ll make a footnote of it in my novel’s first volume. I’m trying to be good, but its so difficult dealing with so much ADD and mindless free floating disjointed spam.
I have asked, what is your end game? If you don’t believe that a cable makes audible difference then why do you keep showing up on these cable threads with same futile arguments?
Just look back at every cable thread you tread on...what have you gained by dissing folks that are pro aftermarket cables or other tweaks.
dynaquest4 > Please try to pre-think your responses and attempt to be succinct and concise enough that others here will actually read what you have to say. 🐑 🚶🏻🏃🏻🚶🏻🚶🏻
blindjim >
@dynaquest4 > Wait! What? are we running out of server space?
. No one told me. Sorry. Should we chip in to add more? You start, everyone else will follow your lead.
Its hard to let go of the playground or your vision of it, ain’t it?
By your own admission you chose not to read my post. So you have nothing to base your objections to apart from its duration and unremarkable suppositions?
Hmmm. How cordial. I would have used imogees were I able.
I communicate. I don’t grunt. Cheer on. Backslap. Nudge. Or leave much to conjecture whenever I post. At least I try not to. Why? It saves me and others time for explanations after the fact.
Neither do I expect anyone to read what I write. Albeit, some may. If just one person finds my input helpful, then outstanding!!! ,
I also tend to enjoy adding when possible, or appropriate some humor along the way.
In your case, it seems to fall on self imposed deafened ears and or blinded eyes.
OK. I apologize. I was unaware you were the forum spokesperson. The consciousness of mankind. That any attempt to communicate MUST adhere to what makes sense to you, and in some unknown crieterium of exceptional brevity so you can ignore something quicker.
My bad.
OMG! You don’t even know me. Know nothing at all about me I would think. Yet you demonstrate an obvious bias based on some fantastic unsubstantiated, known only to you, possible heresay, characteristics people must follow to gain your blessings?
If you can not maintain a train of thought long enough, or tolerate sufficiently a disposition apart from your own, the world you live in will forever frustrate you. that’s too bad.
I don’t roll with the ‘plus 1s’, the ‘absoutely’ or the ‘yeah, right on’ crowd. That jazz is sheer fraternal good ol’ boy back slappin’ cliquish drama. It fosters no positive outcome to a conversation, debate, contention, agreement or argument. It merely separates the fold. Culls the heard derisively.
Mostly though it signifies a closed mind, or a groundlessly and likely erroneously prejudiced one. Again,that’s too bad.
If you are unable to agree or disagree with grace, and demonstrate some maturity and open mindedness, perhaps these forums are not for your temperament.
But, again, I sincerely apologize if my benign discourse aimed solely on the topic or response to another’s post, upsets you. or any others.
Keep holding onto the idea of ‘succinct brief ambiguity and watch as this culture and others devolve as many have in the last twenty years or so. And everyone wonders why there is so much anger. Acrimony. Grief and misgivings.
Communication. Its communication or its absence. No one wants to know where anyone else is really coming from any more. We just suspect, project, or claim we know but we don’t because we’ve lost the ability to communicate and tolerate. Understand And empathize.
If you’re gonna express your thoughts. Please…. Express them as well as you are able. Always.
taras22> brilliant and much much fun....
blindjim > @taras22…. thank you. so… you’re the one who read my post, it seems now, you are the last of a dying breed!! Lol
= = == = =
Sorry, I must digress to this thread’s orig topic….
I like the idea of mixing and matching cables in the loom to fit better the component they are attached to, or to improve upon the synergy of the whole system.
Sometimes with wires, it is nothing more than a hunch or WAG as to how they get into the mix.
As for same same across the board, I’ve yet to find one brand and model of cable which has everything and does everything exceptionally well.
So it always ends up being some sort of conglomeration of various brands and models of wires and cords..
well, so far anyhow.
As for deletions or removals of post, maybe its just filters. Certain words. Phrases. Maybe too Admin is tired of some folks forgetting free speech doesn’t mean you can say anything at all and is attempting to remind people about that side of the coin.
@dynaquest4, again being rather selective in your criticism. If you noticed, I replied in kind. Stop being such a toadie for others.
@kosst, now you're down to the I"m rubber, you're glue school of debate? Your rants don't address what I say, only what the voices in your head say I said. Could it be that you're used to silencing people with a glare or by your barking? That you hate it when someone stands their ground? The overwhelming majority of people here know that cables make a difference and they smartly stay out of these kinds of discussions because of people like you. They probably wonder why I respond as well.
Get used to people standing up to you. It's called life.
kosst, you're just so full of it my friend. The conclusions you arrive at never cease to amaze me. You read what you want and infer what's not implied so you can have that tired old soapbox to stand and scream and your sad little head off.
Someday you're going to make a shrink a rich man. You'd best confront those demons before they prepare the padded room for you.
Are we to believe that Kosst- F5 clone amp and shadorne - Benchmark DAC3 are the only components with perfect measurements and rest of the components in the world are being put together without any measurements 😉
When it comes down to brass tacks don’t we all buy into the notion that brand ABC’s box of over-hyped and absurdly expensive box of wires is better than brand XYZ’s brand of over-hyped and absurdly expensive box of wires? I think it does not just stop being ridiculous with wires and cables, it easily extends into the audio equipment we buy. I cannot say I enjoy my ridiculously expensive stereo more than the kid down the block who listens to all his music on an older smartphone and I really would have a hard time justifying the higher price I paid for my audio adventure. What’s even more embarrassing? The banter and fighting back and forth, “I have better audio equipment and am smarter about high fidelity than that other guy” That always makes me laugh! BTW the smart guys are the ones making all the hi-fi equipment and selling it for huge sums of $$$$.... not the ones buying it.
@shadorne The way I see (hear) it is that no component, in and of itself, is a faithful reproducer of music. They are what the designers think they should be, researched and developed in house with ancillary equipment they have on hand such as sources, speakers, cables, etc. They all fine tune it to what sounds best and hope it's good enough for everyone else.
Anyone who's been to a manufacturers place and been in one of their listening rooms is privy to what they use for playback purposes. They usually have a few different speakers, sources and what cabling they like. It's fairly representative of what's out there but it's hardly extant.
Having said that, the place I visited was a famous brand name with a higher end brand that is very well respected and very costly and all they used for cabling was the cheap crap that comes with a $50 DVD player. I couldn't believe it but I certainly heard it. $5K amp driving $7K speakers with generic cabling and it sounded like crap. The guy went on about the sound and how superior the drivers were and all I could think of was did he drink his lunch? I still bought the unit I came for since I got it for half off and when I got home, it sounded so much better in my system which retailed for about 1/6 the cost.
Now can anyone claim that what I heard at the costly name brand factory was faithfully reproducing the source? Simply replacing those red, white and black cheap as hell ICs and zip cord speaker cable would have woke that system up. I've heard that gear at audio shows with better cabling and it can really sing. Sometimes, tweaking can not only fine tune a system but make up for cheap, cost cutting steps made along the way.
You are very clever. Great rebuttal. I still haven't got an anwer why some folks prefer the sound of fuses and wires over the faithful reproduction of the source!
I was once challenged to a karate fight. It was to take place on The Amazing Randi's big yatch which was going to be where the James Randi Education Fiundation (cough, cough) was having its retreat that year down in the Caribbean. I gracefully declined the invitation and suggested a stalker of mine go in my stead.
"Fuses and cable swap outs resulted in obvious changes in tone, timbre, ambiance and depth, or see through, as I call it. Even footers made a noticeable difference. I used to love Herbie's tenderfeet but with the Tonians, I had to take them out and just perch the gear directly on the maple shelves. It was just a bit too foggy with them. "
So frustrating to have equipment that is extremely finicky. You never enjoy the music because there is always contamination of the source audio from almost every extraneous factor.
In all my years here I don't recall anyone's life being threatened. On the other hand there's always a first time but hopefully it won't happen. We live in crazy times.
Sceientifics can not make valid tests with cables because there is no valid tests to check the human hearing ! how can they measure things like seperation between instruments, soundstage, details, brightness, refinement, transparency ... so on ??? These who don’t hear difference between cables are semi-deaf and not audiophiles, they will probably not hear difference between good recording to a bad one neither berween good hi fi components to lousy ones. So all the ones claim there is no difference between cables will never admit their hearing is not sensitive/ skilled enough it’s more easy for them to jump to a false conclusion that there is no difference. Maybe all of us that do hear differences between cables are making things from our imagination and should be lock up in an institute and receive aggresive treatment to cure us from this psychotic probem ...
greg22lz @kosst_amojan well, no, a scientist would actually take information, such as here about cables, and see an opportunity for new reasearch instead of pigeonhole everyone who hears differences as deluded, so no you are more of a pseudo scientist, with an attitude. That’s really the difference!
in krosst’s defense, he is not the only pseudo scientist with an attitude. That is pretty much the trademark of pseudo scientists. Think of Lee J Cobb, Juror #2 in 12 Angry Men. "But you can’t prove it!" 😀 Having had the benefit of many years of stalking by angry pseudo scientists on a mission, I think I can safely say the only one who didn’t have an attitude was The Amazing Randi. He let his vigilantes do all the ranting and attacking. Randi himself was always a gentleman. 😬
Geoff Kait machina dynamica advanced audio concepts we do artificial atoms right!
@greg22lz The more I read and hear about the Tekton speakers, the more they remind me of my old Tonian Labs TL-D1s. They were so revealing of anything upstream that what would be considered small changes here and there amounted to significant differences in the resulting sound.
Fuses and cable swap outs resulted in obvious changes in tone, timbre, ambiance and depth, or see through, as I call it. Even footers made a noticeable difference. I used to love Herbie's tenderfeet but with the Tonians, I had to take them out and just perch the gear directly on the maple shelves. It was just a bit too foggy with them.
Anyhow, keep on keeping on and tweak away as long as you can hear the difference.
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