Open baffle speakers

@mijostyn - not with nearfield listening and if that OB works off a competently designed and built field coil driver. You’d have to actually hear one to understand what’s possible. I only need to cross my subs over at 50db - any more affects the nuance of the mid and low woofers. My listening position is 7’ from each woofer, which are 8’ apart 😉

in friendship - kevin

@mijostyn - I have not had that experience. My OB woofers have smoother in-room response than I have ever been able to achieve with conventional box subs. I suspect this is because they don’t excite the side to side room modes as much because of the radiation pattern.

My response at the listening position is fairly flat, ultimately rolling off in the upper teens.

My experience with OB speakers is that the hype surrounding them in recent years is mostly unwarranted. They do sound different from most box speakers but not necessarily better. Of course if you spend $10K on a well designed OB speaker, it’s likely going to outperform a $5K box speaker. I suspect that many listeners who made the move to Spatial or Pure Audio Project OBs and raved about the performance were upgrading from cheaper box speakers.

Personally, despite their considerable shortcomings, I prefer Magnepans and ESLs to any of the dynamic-driver OBs I’ve encountered. 

One trait that has been consistent among all dynamic-driver OBs I’ve owned or auditioned is substandard imaging, probably due to the requisite width of the baffles. Also, none managed to completely do away with the resonances typically associated with box speakers the same way a panel speaker can. 
 

But you don’t need a subwoofer with 2 15” subs in the lower half of an OB speaker. How much bass does one need? I’ll tell you what, the most natural, the tightest bass I ever heard from a speaker was from an OB speaker. It’s as if the jazz bassist is in the room. Almost scary.  

I had the good fortune to be good friends with Don Barringer who worked with Siegfried Linkwitz on the Linkwitz "Orion" speaker design. Don and I were both professional musicians.  Don worked for a number of years as the recording engineer for the U.S. Marine Band in Washington, D.C.  Don was constantly experimenting with all things audio and even when Siegfried decided that the Orions had reached peak development, Don continued to tweak and improve them for another 20 years !  A great deal of his concentration went into modifications of the X-Over network and I spent many sessions with him as he brought my X-Over "up to snuff" !  I mention all this to establish his credentials as both a performer and an engineer.

     One of the most amazing changes to his reference system was when he decided that the Orions needed a rear-facing tweeter.  To my recollection, Siegfried agreed with the change and resultant improvement.  It was really then that the Orions truly required that they be spaced well away from the back wall.  The incredible imaging that these speakers provide should satisfy anyone to whom this facet of performance is important.  I've always thought that the bass of the Orions was tuneful and accurate as well as plentiful. The Orions incorporate four 12" woofers facing front and rear.   

    With the advent of amplified musical instruments [of all kinds], bass has become something that it is NOT in the natural world.  Most bass instruments do not play very loud and do not produce ripples in your Martini glass !  Tympani, bass drum and organ are exceptions and can be very powerful in their "natural" state. The common belief that a low thud is authentic bass instrument information is incorrect.  Of course, the over-amplified electric bass has become ubiquitous but would be useless without the help of a hefty amplifier.  Should we call it man-made bass ?  In any case, evaluating loudspeakers using recordings of other than natural instruments is very misleading.  I enjoy punchy, artificial bass and screaming highs as much as anyone but have never heard the equivalent in the world of natural sound. Open baffle speakers are great if you have a room in which they can do their best.  Highly recommended !

Does it get better than this, because it really doesn’t do it for me? I’ve heard similar live and..., meh.

The peak in the vocals here would drive me crazy.

https://youtu.be/eB6ZJvLICVo

@jaytor @coltrane1 Low bass, below 100 Hz is handily the most difficult part of the audio spectrum to evaluate by ear and even measurement can be tricky. The first tell that there are problems is the baffle shaking or vibrating with low notes. That vibration is distortion. The best way of measuring what is happening is comparing free air response to t in room measured response with short sinewave sweeps measuring at various locations. Regular enclosed subwoofers are bad enough, but Open baffle versions are all over the map. If you think you are getting anything below 30 Hz. Take a pair of subwoofers and put them across the room from one another. Flip one in and out of phase while playing a 25 Hz test tone. Please tell us what happens.

Just came back from s concert last nite ,jazz played in a small room , 2 horns ,piano ,bass ,and guitar, no box on stage . I have gradient 1.3 speakers 

@mijostyn, every speaker I’ve posted was an open baffle speaker. The problem is I’ve heard each speaker in small rooms, mid sized rooms, and large rooms. Each speaker performed like no other. The disadvantage you have is, you haven’t heard these speakers. The 15” subs were specifically designed for OB’s. I can’t comment on the design of other OB’s. But I can personally vouch for the performance of these. Each speaker was custom made by hand, by an audiophile who was also an exceptional woodworker. Each speaker was built from solid Sapele, or solid Ash. You don’t find this design on the open market, for most OB’s produced today are finished in Veneers.Therefore, there’s no comparison

I understand speaking in generalities. But none of your uncertainty would apply to these OB’s. The quality of them is beyond compare.

@mijostyn   You absolutely right  , 

@toddalin , sounding great! What speakers are those?

@terraplane8bob I totally agree, I've never heard an unamplified musical instrument have tight low bass like some amplifiers and speakers produce.

coltrane1

According to the video they are Lii Audio PT-10/W-15.

I know they are certainly far from cheap, but they just don’t do it for me. Maybe it’s the track. IIRC, I have that one on CD and will have to listen on my system.

@coltrane1 Sorry friend, but I have made and measured open baffle subwoofers and there is no mystery here. If you think what your listening too sounds good you have a lot left to experience, which is a good thing.

@mijostyn , well let’s see, I’m a jazz pianist and play jazz guitar fairly well, on top of being an audiophile for 50 plus years. Maybe you’re right, I have no idea about sound or music. 

I'm thinking of getting into open baffles. Looking at a pair of Lii Song Liionidas. Anyone had any experience with these? 

@coltrane1 I have been designing and building subwoofers for 40 years, https://imgur.com/gallery/building-resonance-free-subwoofers-dOTF3cS I have no idea about bass and I have been an audiophile for 70 years. My mother had to put a table radio in the crib with me to shut me up. None of this means that I know what I am listening to. This is a matter of experience. To know what proper imaging sounds like you have to have heard a system that images correctly. I did not hear that system until I was 24 years old and I was not able to reproduce that feat for another 10 years in my own system. 

Unless you have measured your system in your room you have no idea what you are listening too. You like what you hear, but you cannot say exactly what that is.

Plenty of acoustic suspension designs produce far superior bass to most OBs IME. Though who am I to judge since I am no musician? Lol.

I’m “baffled” that after more than 100 responses nobody mentions the room the speakers are being used in. OB speakers are the first that worked in my room. Prior to that, even at low volumes, three different ported box speakers (two standmounts, one floorstander) excited the room and muddied the bass significantly. My current OB speakers, Spatial Audio M3 Sapphires are heads and tails better than those speakers IN MY ROOM, so much so that I’m having a pair of endgame OBs custom-made as we speak. 

Honestly, the conversation is a waste of time without considering the room. Open baffle speakers are incredibly room friendly as long as you can have them a minimum of three feet out from the front wall. For anyone who has struggled finding a box speaker that works in their room, try open baffles. They make fantastic bass even in small, difficult rooms, no subs required. 
 

Like box speakers, every OB is unique. People are referring to OB’s as if each is the same simply because they’re OB’s. I fail to understand the logic in that.

Those I posted were each created by one custom builder. They’re not a speaker for everyone. But I found them to duplicate music very accurately, especially the bass. I’ve never heard more authentic bass from a speaker as those OB’s.

@Coltrane1 our experiences seem very similar. The bass is sublime. Way more textured and detailed than any box speaker I’ve heard.

I honestly don’t know why a certain segment of the audiophile community has made it their mission to denigrate a particular speaker design. Variety is the spice of life and all that. I wish there were more commercially available open baffles (excluding ribbons and quasi ribbon dipoles). As it stands they are quite rare. I guess that’s the reason you and I have gone the custom route.

Maybe the bass is "way more textured" because open baffle speakers tend to use an accordion rather than foam surround?

I use JBL 2241H (18")  and 2251J (~10") woofers in ported cabinets and these have accordion and double roll, respectively, rather than foam surrounds and are extremely textured in the bass. I am not a fan of foam surrounds even if they go a bit lower. I have JBL AlNiCo 2235s (foam edge 15") in my L200/300 cabinets and the texture of the bass, especially things like stand-up string bass, can’t compare.

Who knows. Here’s the 15” woofer my new build gets. 
 

https://www.sbaudience.com/index.php/products/open-baffle-drivers/bianco-15ob350/

It does seem to have the same surround as the JBLs.

No not quite, though it appears to be a "double roll" rather than a simple foam. It would appear that your selected surround is "applied" to the cone whereas the JBLs are a "part" of the cone and of different material.

Of course the JBLs also have bigger voice coils, more tesla, higher BL, etc., but I don't think they are suited to open baffle mounts.

Another qualifier when I put these together was that there would be no foams to rot and replace, again at the expense of deeper bass.

@toddalin That’s very interesting because a lot of classic jazz guitar amplifiers also use Alnico speakers. They’re some of the finest tones to be had from a jazz guitar amp, of course powered by tube amplification. 

I have friends with Lii speakers. They think they sound great... meanwhile all I hear is "HONK". The primary factor for them cutting a piece of plywood and mounting a big Chinesium driver was... as usual:

PRICE.

And I also know this... "The frustration of poor performance lingers long after the lowest price is forgotten."

I smile and nod... neither has been over to hear my setup... and in some ways, I don’t want them to - because when they leave, "things won’t be the same".

OK...,

JBL 2279 18" in U-Frame.

https://youtu.be/UA6fvVMoTug

What tangramca said…

I have a problematic asymmetrical room, and try as I might, I couldn’t get sufficiently satisfying bass without then overloading the room at high volume.

I now use Spatial Audio M3 Turbo S speakers, and the problem is gone. Truth be told, I do like a little more bass than they provide, so a pair of Hsu ULS-15 subs complete the picture. The sub settings are different; the closed side of the room gets less gain and the Q is set to minimum. 

If I had a perfect room or something close to it, I’d probably revert to box speakers, but for now, the Spatials do exactly what I need them to do.

I believe it’s a case of ‘horses for courses’ with open baffles.

BTW, I’ve heard Bache’s (OP) speakers, and they sound great.

I use OBs in my loft listening room. All my closed box speakers really did not work well in this specific environment but the OBs do. The room plays a very key role on how they sound. I also cross my OBs over at 90db and use a powered sub so base is not really an issue. 

 so base is not really an issue. 
 

That’s really cool. One question, how is the bass?

nzastro , where can i see pics of your compact baffle speakers?

@bache you keep talking-down open-baffles, and saying "measurements", "measurements". So here you are, in-room measurements from the speakers I made, including open-baffle subwoofers to fill-in the lower octaves using REW and calibrated mic...

As you can see from the graph title, these are a stereo pair of Linkwitz LXmini's complimented with a stereo pair of Linkwitz Phoenix (alt) open-baffle subs resulting in a fairly flat full-range response. They are preamp'd, crossed-over, EQ'd and amplified with a pair of Hypex FA123 (one FA123 mounted in each of the Phoenix OB-subs). Why a stereo pair of subs - "don't you know freq's below 80 Hz are mono to the ear!" I say BS - stereo is stereo at every freq, and if you want to listen to mono bass - do your thing (but don't complain to me when it doesn't sound or measure the same). Regarding the subs... they are extremely articulate and 'fast' enough to keep up with the LXmini - my experience is anything less (sealed, ported, slotted, etc.) is less. What is the (alt)? While I encourage everyone to read Siegfried Linkwitz recommendations on driver selection (and every other topic)... "alt" means 12" Peerless Tymphany XLS830500 drivers made in Denmark (instead of whatever where the original recommended drivers). Each cabinet (of the stereo pair) receives two of these drivers mounted front-to-back and wired out of phase to cancel even-order distortion and provide inertial balance of cone mass. This is what the system looked like. I was testing-out a Denafrips Ares2 at the time - it added no appreciable benefit. Notice none of these speakers are very far from the front wall (the system is in a 600 sq.ft. bedroom) and plays louder than I want...

I read a lot of arguing which is typical on this platform (and sad for the self-proclaimed mature and skilled in the room). There are many ways to acheive audio bliss. For me (an engineer), same as motorcycling and other hobbies, joy comes from the journey more so than the destination. I realize many (maybe most) folks listen for the music; meanwhile, I listen mostly to the system. How well does it put me on the stage, convey the emotion of standing amidst the musicians and instruments first-person - instead of in the front row (listening to microphones, switchboard, amps and speakers). Long ago, I discovered that elusive realism comes from dipoles (same as instruments). I've had so many different speakers (e-stats, ported monster coffins, stand-mounted, etc.) in this room and so much gear (various amps, so many DACs, multiple power conditioners, expensive cables, etc.) and nothing out-does the current configuration: LXmini + Phoenix(alt) subs source is my wife's old (broken screen) Samsung phone running DeX outputting HDMI to the Hypex amps via Coax audio stripper. An invisible system that delivers video and spacious 2-ch audio flat full-range response. Why does it sound better than everything in the pile of abandoned speakers and gear that still occupies space everywhere (I have control) in the house? Listed in order of sonic priority: LXmini, OB-subs, signal is digital (no analog) all the way to the amps within the subs (no analog signals - not even XLR), only one (1) single conversion (which is digital to analog) inside the Hypex plate amps - no multiple conversions back and forth (ADC/DAC), reclocking or resampling/upsampling (like many systems). 

@mwatsme You measurement looks very good , you made good job . Only one question , What is distance between microphone and bass driver cone ?

If you an engineer , you must be know the lenght of low frequency wave . So if you stand close to driver the bass may be ok. But if go 3-4 feet to side the wave from front cone and back wil be eluminate each other , I am not hate anything. Each design have some issues , To be find out which is better in you particular room there is best way to make A-B comparision ,

@bache Every speaker design has “issues.”

You doubt OB’s, as if you’ve heard every OB. And yet here you are representing yourself as knowledgeable. Perhaps you’re filled with as many assumptions as knowledge? Personally, one thing I believe people can’t relate to is their speed. I couldn’t, until I heard them.

Now you’ll argue time alignment or whatever measurement, as if that relates to all OB’s. Personally, I think you protest too much. Argue away. I’m done listening to your opinions.

You know with dsp you think you could get around alot of problems and electronic crossovers.even if you don't like that you could get them close with electronic crossover and then build a fixed capacitor and crossover with coils and inductors.enjoy the hunt and experimenting..

Back in the old days past, most manufactures of console stereos had open back cabinets. Some of these sounded really great and had no lack of bass.

In experimenting while building DYI speakers I found a properly damped cabinet with not fully open back but partial depending on the cabinet size can open up the sound stage. Allowing an internal pressure regulated to breathe. With a resonator port internal to the cabinet with part of the resonator end open in my case  with a front vent also made a Smooth lower mid bass. Midbass woofers usually cross over at any number of frequencies depending on the woofer can cross over from 500 to 5,000 depending on the setup. The woofer also does mid range as well as bass. The tuned hemholz took charge of the deep frequencies. There are more factors than you can shake a stick at when building. But this worked in my case. I am not an expert by any means.  However if open back is used properly I think it is rewarding. I just had fun. I suspect some higher end open back manufacters are striving for openness not sounding like a cabinet or case is there at all.

@bache I take all measurements from the listening position - about 8ft. in front and centered. Also, you can see in the photo that the LXmini and the subs are toed-in toward the listener(s).

But if go 3-4 feet to side the wave from front cone and back wil be eluminate each other

Yes! This is true, you have uncovered (for yourself) another wonderful benefit of open-baffle subs... they don't 'load' the room, don't rattle decorations, don't turn the walls, celing or floors into giant vibrating panels. You might also notice that (despite excessive endeavors to improve the sound) there are no audio-inspired room treatments. Even though I have 'improved' (further minimized) the system since the photo and measurements that I shared - there are still no room treatments. Why? Because they are unecessary - for exact reason you said... the drivers don't radiate sound from the sides (that would reflect all over the room) causing need of room treatments. Now, could the room be improved with treatments... yes, I'm sure it could - but the improvements would be so minimal as to not be worthwhile (for me).

To be find out which is better in you particular room there is best way to make A-B comparision

Again, I agree completely. This is not always possible, but I have endeavored it, comparing many different speakers in the same room and same system (at each time in history). Here's a photo from a previous itteration of 2-ch system, where I was A/B'ing LXmini against ML and Tekton DI's...

The only speakers I've had that have the same 'magic' as LXmini are the Martin Logan e-stats. Problem with those speakers is that the 'magic' only happens in a very small focused frame (head in a vice syndrome). The LXmini take the 'magic' and make it both more spacious and available everywhere around the listening area. Not all 'box' speakers are 'bad'. I've kept a few for various reasons... GoldenEar Triton One's are currently in the basement HT system as mains, GoldenEar Triton 3+ as rear surrounds, Martin Logan Motions as center and side-surround, and ML in-celings as Atmos (GE and ML both use AMT tweaters, so voicing is very similar), Elac were too good a bargain to resell and found a home in the garage system, and I learned a lot during my time with Tekton DI's. The Tekton's don't have the 'magic', but they do some things very well, resulting in me using them to fine-tune the crossovers and EQ of the LXmini + Phoenix(alt) subs. You might ask what 'magic' is missing from the Tekton DI's... they sound very good, flat linear and full-range response that is lightning fast. But when you listen to them, it sounds like you're listening to speakers - there is no 'magic' found in LXmini and other similar dipole designs.

BTW, I have made several in-room recordings of this system posted on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxwE9oiZfmM

@mwatsme your system sounds fabulous, especially for such a narrow room. Well done!

Yes , GoldenYear Technologies, Tektone DJ is the Best LS on the market, Really Class A , 

@coltrane1 Thank you for your kind comment. There are several videos of the system on my channel. Regarding the subwoofer topic of this thread, I would recommend watching the video featuring Maggie Rogers "Alaska" - wonderful bass texture on that track.

@mark200mph You were writing about DSP crossovers, and their beneficial capabilities. While some will say DSP flattens the sound (Danny Richie being one), once you have the ability to adjust crossovers, parametric EQ, individual gain and delay on the fly while listening... its hard to imagine not having the capability.  When purchasing pre-manufactured speakers with passive crossovers, you're putting a lot of trust in the mfg that they voiced them to your liking, and that they will do what you want in every room, at all volume levels and across every genre of music you may enjoy. With DSP, you can save presets, and change them at will. I can't imagine a speaker a speaker so perfect that I wouldn't want to adjust it... maybe if it came with its own listening room, had a fixed volume and only played one song? Again, not bashing passive crossover box speakers - my HT system is littered with them. But for critical 2-ch listening, best be able to adjust.

@mwatsme  I still dont understand why the speaker company dont making  a Subs wth open back? Just close box or ported, So stupid ?

40 years in this hobby and owned all styles of designs in that time. New designs of open baffle speakers are like having a Magiee or Quad Electrostatic but with the full bottom end, extended highs, and dynamics on steroids. They work great in all rooms, and like all speakers sound best 2-3 feet from the front wall. No different than box speakers.

So much in the audio is talking about how things were in the past, from Class D amps to digital and DIY OB speakers.

This is 2024 new time and era of new designs that have had years to mature and form.  Open baffles speakers bring the music "live" into the room. Besides my Quad ESL's OB speakers on well-produced recordings sound like they are playing in your room, yes they sound different than box speakers as do the panel and electrostatic speakers and that is not a bad thing music-wise. 

@phillyb, Great take! I could not agree more. But first you’ve got to have an open mind. I’ve owned Electrostats for over 40 years. For years CLSiiz’s were my speakers of choice. I relished in their midrange which I believed was not matched by box speakers. We all listen differently, and prefer different components, so why should loudspeakers be any different? But 15 years ago I met an audiophile who was a professional woodworker. He built his own speakers, using solid woods and no mdf. He began building OB speakers using bass speakers specifically made for OB’s. I was floored by their performance to reproduce authentic sounding bass, which was as natural as I’d ever heard. I purchased several pairs, all while keeping my electrostatic speakers. Enjoy whatever speakers you choose. But to denigrate someone else’s choices, especially when you’ve not heard them, seems a bit harsh and illogical. We each have our biases. Allow others to enjoy and live with their choices. After all, audio is about freedom of choice. 

I heard those OB speakers a year ago or so and they were really good and very small. There are two planar tweeters mounted angled on each side and a midrange. Four 8-inch base drivers (might be sealed, hard to see and I don't remember).

https://www.hifistallet.se/products/lindstr%C3%B6m-audio-iso-85

I went to my friends Danny's place in Ventura, CA he is the owner of Requisite Audio. He is also a musician and has the best ears for audio of anyone that I know, genius level hearing and also commented as such by Stajan on an article on 6moons.com.

He told me his new creation is the best speaker he has ever heard. Now I know he does not BS but still it was his baby, so I had some doubts.  He had come to my place a year earlier and heard my Yamaha NS5000 with my CODA #16 amp and said that was the best box speaker he had heard in about 40 years.  I have it in a nice room with very little side reflections and a high ceiling.

When he told me the open baffle speaker he his creating sounded better than the NS5000, especially on the bass I was surprised. Yesterday, I had 4 hours available while I had to go to LAX to pick up my parents. I spent that time at his place listening to the smallest iteration of his new speaker. His place is not ideal for a demo of speakers, he will set up the top end model at his shop in Ventura soon. However, this demo reminded me of a demo of a DAC and amp by what is now Infigo Audio about a decade ago. They used a $500 used scratched up B+W speaker to demo the DAC (and amp). Even in a non-deal setup great sound was possible.

I had heard an open baffle system, that cost $160k for the speaker alone, at a local store and thought it was not better than the NS5000.,which they also sold. I was not blown away with the idea of open baffle based on that experience. That is until yesterday. What I heard yesterday was a very fast, detailed, and explosive speaker, The demo was one where I was either toe tapping or dancing to the music as never before in a demo. I had also taken my superlative Schitt Yggi+ OG DAC to his place to listen with it so that had something to do with it.  That bass was extraordinary and Danny told me that is what bass should sound like. He was a professional bass player for decades.

I listened to jazz, Mozart, rock (specifically Roller by April Wine).  There was something special going on with the open baffle design. He had a class D on the 15 -inch woofer and a device to control the top end from a 15-inch full range driver. That full range was driven by a Felx Envy 4-watt amp with $2k+ of tubes. The customization of the balance between the top end and the bass was all done on the analog domain. Normally, I would say digital was the way to do that but what do I know after hearing this.

This maybe the best speaker I have EVER heard. The wife may be a no go to having 2 speakers in the same Livingroom. I also need some cash to make this happen. 

I asked Danny if he would sell the NS5000 if he was in my shoes. He said he would not since it is so good, but he also said he will no longer listen to a box speaker. I totally get that sentiment now.

Due to space restrictions and the wife factor, I think I may be selling my NS5000 and the CODA #16 amp (or my Sanders Magtech amp) to get this speaker. I love the CODA amp and can use it in my office with my Magnepan Mini. I am getting the open baffle speaker but not sure about selling the NS5000.

Requisite Audio | High-End Audio For Creators & Connosouirs

The web site in not updated with the new open baffle speaker. He is expecting a December release with many customization options from a 2-driver setup to a 5-driver setup. For my Livingroom his 2-driver speaker would be good, but the 3-driver is ideal. I am getting the 3-driver. The customization is for extra bass modules, fancy finish, 2 levels of driver quality. I heard the lower end driver he will sell. I will likely go with the unheard higher end driver and bare bones finish.

He will offer me a discount, but I never take discounts from my friends since this is their livelihood.