One big reason why brick and mortar high end audio dealers struggle.
I live in a major metropolitan area with several close by high end stores. I never go in any of them. A dealer just opened a new location 5 minutes from my house. Major dealer with Magico, Constellation, McIntosh and many other serious brands. I went by a couple weeks ago mid day on a Friday. Door locked, nobody there. I call today to make sure they are actually open for business. Guy answers the phone and says that they were out on an install when I can by and that they are short staffed. No problem, I understand. But from that point on the guy takes a subtle but clearly defensive and pissy tone. He states that they recommend setting up an appointment for customers to view their products. Sure, and I recommend never going there. Off my list. Back to buying online. Here's the issue. So many of these high end dealers are only after the wealthy guy that comes in, spends less than an hour there and orders a complete home theater or 2 channel system and writes a check for $50k or more on the spot. That's there customer base. I get that it can be annoying to allow a bunch of lookers to come in and waste their time and not buy anything, but isn't it good for business to have more customer traffic? If someone comes in, spends an hour there, listens to some amazing gear and then buys nothing, doesn't he tell his friends and family and coworkers about his great experience? Isn't this word of mouth valuable? These brick and mortar dealers almost universally are unwelcoming and unfriendly to people that want to come in and just look and listen and not buy. Sorry, but the vast majority of potential customers are not going to spend 20 minutes by private appointment to order their new $100k system. Why not encourage people to come and spend time with zero pressure to purchase. I have purchased dozens of high end speakers and electronics over the many years I have enjoyed this hobby. I might well buy from a dealer if they were actually nice, friendly, and encouraged hanging out and getting to know their gear. But they don't. I would never go to a high end store that required an appointment. Because this creates a huge pressure situation for you to purchase that day. I'm not ready to purchase on my first visit. And neither are thousands of other potential customers. If they can make a good living just catering to the wealthy one time buyers, then, ok, good for them. Doesn't seem like they can though since so many have gone under. Maybe it's time to try a different approach? Step one, no commission sales people. Step two, welcome people to listen and not buy anything. Encourage it. This will create positive word of mouth and significantly increase customer traffic and ultimately create more paying customers it would seem. I don't get it. Rant over. Please don't respond that you have an amazing dealer. I'm sure they exist but they are the exception. What I am describing is the typical customer experience.
We seem to be universally blaming the tire-kickers who end up buying online, and we seem to be debating the qualities of dealers who can be unwelcoming and condescending.
The assumption is that it's cheaper to buy online. But is it? Which high-end companies allow their equipment to be sold online for less than MSRP? Which online sellers sell their equipment for less than a brick-and-mortar store? I haven't noticed Moon-Audio or Audio Advisor discounting much, but maybe I've just missed it. Or are we talking about the grey market here?
I think we are often referring to the wide availability of used equipment, and the internet availability of authorized dealers selling demo and factory refurbished...all at extreme savings
Thanks. I don’t see much to do about used equipment, though I can see why that’s a problem for dealers. As for authorized dealers, it makes sense to me that the companies should either not allow authorized dealers to sell demos/refurbished ... or brick-and-mortar stores should also sell demos/refurbished. (Obviously they DO sell demos and trade-ins.) It also seems to me that brick-and-mortar stores can set up online sales for such items, as many already have.
I’m simply trying to figure out where the problem is here. The used market and the grey market undoubtedly detract from dealers’ sales, but that’s simply an escalation of a market long available to buyers. (I don’t mean to underestimate that; of course the internet has dramatically enlarged that market.)
Over the last couple years I’ve had long talks with three highly-regarded, multi-decade brick-and-mortar store owners. All said that it’s a much harder business than it was twenty+ years ago, and all were resigned to selling HT stuff. Interestingly, none of them mentioned tire-kickers or internet sales. They talk about the changing values of their customers, saying that younger people these days (under 40) simply aren’t as interested in two-channel systems as they used to be. As far as the mid- to hi-end market, I wonder if that’s really the problem that dealers are facing.
Thinking about this some more, I realize. When ever I go into a high end store, typically I will find the most knowledgeable guy (usually by asking to see the manager). I then explain my intentions. I explain the system I have and any intentions… like, I am in the browsing mode, with a long-termed intent of replacing something, or I wanted to understand what they carry, or what ever. This way I can assess their knowledge / strengths and they know what to expect from me. A courteous customer tends to illicit a good relation from a sales person. I suppose this is why I have had good luck and long relationships with high end audio dealers.
Boy, the two local places near me in Minneapolis that I’ve shopped at in recent years -- Stereoland and Audio Perfection -- have not been anything like the negative experiences some of you are talking about with brick and mortar retailers. I come in with a strict (and frankly laughably low) budget. They let me stay as long as I want, even let me cart my own gear and vinyl in to compare, poke their heads in and offer advise at reasonable intervals, and didn’t have a whiff of condescension or salesmanship. If I had the money for all the toys I’d get I would spend a day in those stores every month.
Dealers obviously should be friendly, respectful and accommodating. Today, dealers work in an almost impossible environment with audiophiles wanting to audition the equipment of interest and then buy at the cheapest price, usually online or via non local dealers. Dealers do seek out the larger fish to make ends meet, but must make all customers feel welcome. Perhaps a nominal hourly auditioning fee, returned with purchase in the next 90 days, will keep tire kickers away. However, this may lead to a quicker demise of local dealers? I appreciate the difficulties local dealers are facing but I also understand they must not make their customers feel uncomfortable or unimportant. Maybe extinction is sadly inevitable?
I am endlessly perplexed by the attitudes of experts and employees at the remaining brick & mortar dealers. So many of them just sound like they don't want to be there and are critically inconvenienced by talking to a potential customer.
There are gems in the field of trash, though. When I was still living in LA, I would venture over to Randy's showroom "Optimal Enchantments"; he was always super friendly, gracious, and helpful. It was through some key initial conversations with him that I began my path into audiophilia.
A person either has genuine passion for their work or they don't. Those that do exist. They just have to be sought out.
Well, it sounds like I am pretty damn lucky. My local dealer (70 minute drive) is phenomenal. Always a pleasure to see, never any pressure but always helpful and very knowlegable.
There is another hi-end dealer in the same town (they are on the outskirts of a major metropolitan area) and the dealer I visit shares a parking lot with a Magnolia/Best Buy.
Tonight, I'm going down for a "Groovy Event" that is scheduled to have in attendance Roy Delgado, Jeff Sigmund, John Pravel, Doug Cowan, and Dave Kroll.
I initially became interested in high end audio after spending time with my local dealer, listening and learning. And while today we have excellent online information available, as well as audio shows, I fear that the younger folks just getting into the hobby won't have the benefit of a relationship with their local dealer.
Example, I tried to make an appointment at a local dealer for my Nephew and I to audition a new turntable, with a budget of $5,000. I spoke on the phone with the salesman and we narrowed the selection down to 1-2 turntables in our price range. He knew that we would be buying it after the demo.....no "kicking tires."
I have purchased a lot of stuff from the store over the years, so the salesman proceeded to tell me about some great $25K+ turntables he had. I said I was happy with what I'm currently using but would keep it in mind if I decided to make a change.
He never called back to schedule a time to bring my Nephew in. I guess the $5K sales was not worth his effort.
We ended up buying a turntable, tonearm, cartridge, record cleaner, cabling and all the necessary accessories from another dealer that I've worked with in the past.
The store not only lost my Nephew as a current and ongoing customer, but I won't be going back either.
Is this the level of investment we want to make in the next generation of audiophiles?
Firstly: There isn't much new in the writers' criticisms of profit-above-all outfits. The smaller the floor space; the possibility of some kind of integrity is enhanced. The only big-box outfit in my area is Best Buy. However, it's still geared to mid-fy, but does showcase some audiophile gear that significantly undersells the other stuff.
Fortunately, I took my graduate courses in Balti, including advanced audiophilia. The Baltimore salon is still family-run (since the 1930)s. It operates on "when you would like to talk, or listen to something...just ask". And yes, you can talk as long as you want. The owners and staff are educated, articulate, welcoming, and superbly experienced in the field and music itself. Been with them for over 25 years. That in itself says a lot. FYI: Soundscape in Baltimore, owned and shared by the Dorsey family. They have a website.
I have to comment about a local dealer in the Phoenix metro area. With two locations in Tempe and Scottsdale, I’ve been to both a few times and I’ve always been treated kindly and professionaly. I’ve bought from one location before, but when visiting the other at one point, I was just checking out a $500K system (that I sure cannot afford) and the guys at the store were happy to demonstrate it for me and answer plenty of questions. Well done LMC!
The effect of the Internet on the audiophile industry/community is more complex than our discussion has acknowledged so far. Long time a'goners will know that the Internet, especially A'gon, not only has changed the audio marketing landscape, but has enabled new component manufacturers (what I call basement developers/entrepreneurs) to start up and thrive in that marketplace. I have enjoyed watching several of these new product lines evolve and develop, and I have enjoyed auditioning some of them in my home system. All of these products began as direct sale only, often here on a'gon. Although some have made their way into the mainstream market, most simply are not available in local audio stores. I think the opportunity for this kind of innovation, created by the internet, has made valuable contributions to the audiophile industry, driving further innovation and development. Most of the purchases I have made in this market are described best as tweaks, rather than major components of my system, and I have no problem buying these types of products directly from the manufacturer.
Where the major components of my system are concerned, I strongly prefer to buy from local dealers. The problem is that I am now so deep into the hobby that no local dealers can accommodate my auditioning needs. There are just too many products I want to hear for local dealers to keep up with my kind of demand. The market changes too rapidly these days. As someone noted above, it is not easy for dealers to balance the marketing demands of various manufacturers, and the number of product lines they can support is limited.
On the other hand, I could go today into any one of the stores still operating within two hours of home and construct a system with which I could be completely happy. I think this is what any good audio store should be able to offer, and at several price points. This seems the natural niche for a high end audio store these days: to help people construct a fully satisfying system for listeners interested only in reproducing music accurately and pleasantly, without the buyers spending the hundreds, perhaps thousands, of hours I've spent reading online, and buying and selling on a'gon.
My interests are more complex than merely creating a satisfying listening experience in my home; I've become a hobbyist as interested in the performance of a wide range of products as I am in having a system that communicates music accurately and pleasantly. It would be unreasonable for me to expect local dealers to equip and staff their stores to satisfy my curiosities.
I still need a place to audition the wide range of products in which I'm interested without having to buy and have them shipped to my home and, perhaps, to ship them back. Eight years ago, I downsized my system, purchasing new speakers, amp, power conditioners, TT, and digital streaming components. Although I have been working with two local shops for more than four decades, I found that many components in which I was interested were not available locally, so I opted to audition them at annual audio shows. Now, serious auditioning is difficult in that setting. However, with patience, I was able to narrow my options to several and set up times for private listening with the dealers of components on my short list, after hours, if you will. I purchased three major components this way, and I was very happy with the service I received during the purchase. However, with my Devialet amplifier, which met my needs all but perfectly, I sorely missed the after purchase support my local dealers would've given me. But, that support was not possible; the dealers simply do not have license to sell or support the product. Nor did Devialet offer good support early on. Fortunately, Devialet now offers excellent support services.
I guess my point is that the market has indeed changed. There are far too many product lines available, and local store simply cannot support all of them. But, we as consumers have changed as well. The Internet has enabled us to learn a good deal more about the growing number of products in the marketplace, and our interests have outgrown the capacity of the local audio market. We cannot expect local stores to cater to our arcane interests and curiosities. They are there to sell products, not to create audio experiences for navel gazing hobbyists like me.
Best Buy Magnolia is what passes for a High End dealer in my area. We had 2 or 3 bm dealers at one point, but they all faded away. I am primarily a value/used buyer, but I made sure the allocate some purchases to my local dealers. They were nice to deal with, and did not condescend to me or assume an arrogant attitude. I have come to realize these were the exceptions, and I was lucky to have them as resources.
I have travelled a bit for business over the years, and have had opportunities to visit dealers in other (larger) areas. Many were some combination of rude, condescending, arrogant etc. Several were essentially drop shop clerks- no inventory, all sales at MSRP, then purchases are drop shipped to the buyer, with warranty support from the wholesaler/manufacturer. These people litterally took your money upfront, then entered details on line and tole you to expect delivery in about 2 weeks !
IMO if a BM wants to justify their higher costs, then they have to deliver higher value. Education, opportunities to browse, delivery and warranty support are just the tip of the iceberg. Allowing for in home audition (with a deposit of course) would build good will. Buyers now have a worldwide market from which to purchase, and a physical dealer has to justify their place in the sales chain. Very few provide enough value to justify their existance.
If one wants to invest some time, carefully purchased used equipment allows for an extended in home audition, and then resale for your cost if the purchase does not work out. With Covid after effects, more buyers are migrating to this mindset, and realizing they enjoy their purchases and the process much more because they are in control.
They talk about the changing values of their customers, saying that younger people these days (under 40) simply aren’t as interested in two-channel systems as they used to be. As far as the mid- to hi-end market, I wonder if that’s really the problem that dealers are facing.
After reading dozens of comments on this thread, the phrase "late 70s/early 80s" keeps popping up. It would be safe for me to assume that the average age of most on this forum is skewed into Baby Boomer territory. I believe this is the TRUE issue, not "tire kickers" or "time suckers" or any other pejorative term for prospective customers. With that said, there is a generational disconnect with the preferences of those in the "under 40" crowd. As I'm on the cusp of that demographic, I know for certain that a solid majority of those in that age group don't have a clue what high end audio is about nor do they express interest in it (even after having listened to it). Most of them prefer PORTABLE electronics; this is where I see the future of high end audio. Several dealers in my area are catering to this market with Audeze, Focal, Hifiman, etc., as most of those so inclined in audio do not have the space for big speakers and racks of gear and are underwater in so much student debt to where it's not affordable. Portable/headphone audio can be had with an outlay of several thousand for the high end brands. This should become more a focus for most dealers if they want to stay alive. The older audiophiles cannot be around forever and things change.
Also, it would make more business sense to reserve one or two days a week for "appointment only" or on-site customer calls and the rest of the week for standard operating hours. A LOT of younger people have no idea these places exist because they're not accessible (and we're talking about younger people with money to spend). Boost the visibility and lose the "snob" factor because multi-millionaire clients are not guaranteed.
I'm a firm believer in going to a shop to demo the product you're interested in buying - you MUST hear what it sounds like - especially with headphones. I understand the direct sales model but how many times am I going to buy heavy speakers and send them back because the sound doesn't match the review hype? I've been burned before with that and I want to audition the gear in 3-D, not read about it or watch a video. I've been in the audio hobby for over 30 years and you still need to LISTEN to this gear before parting with $100 or $100,000.
Wow and hey!, Best Buy has people waiting for you to come in and browse. They've got a great deal right now on a Crosley system. Amp, tuner, cd player, a turn table and even a cassette deck with speakers! It's $199.95 so jump on it!! But really, high-end audio is a tough damn business. Think, how many people do you know who have a stereo in thier home? Now, how many of them have an audiophile level system that cost somewhere between 10 and 50 thousand to assemble? The people your running down struggle to survive and I, for one, am thankful for the ones that manage to. Yes, a friendly, not too engaging approach to the "customer greet" could help some of them. But it's likely hard when someone feels the pressure of the books running in the red and not seeing how to change that long term. Remember, just because they close doesn't mean their financial bleeding stops. Committments have been signed. Paying the salaries of staff to just wait around for you to stop in when there is consistently little traffic is financially brutal. Audio shops will have formal relationships with high-end makers who set the sale prices of their products and define the territories in which they can sell. This means the "authorized dealer" who's products carry a real warranty are competing agains gray market re-sellers who can undercut them. So the local dealer pays rent and utilities and licenses and taxes and salaries and benefits to create space where people can listen to products before they go buy from someone online with much less overhead. Best Buy loses business along that line when someone comes in, checks out the new LG OLED screen and then price shops and buys it for $35 cheaper somewhere they find online. But Best Buy is in perfect condition to fight it out in that market space and as often as not they will undercut everyone else and take the sale from some other brick and mortar. High-end audio shops can't fight like that for a number of structural reasons. Maybe we cut them some slack. They and we are in a rarefied niche. Maybe you left a shop thinking, "I didn't like the way that person acted. What an idiot." I can guarantee you that you have had people over to your home who heard your system who said to you, "oooo.. I didn't know a stereo could sound so wonderful!", who then on the way home in the car said to one another, "Can you believe that stereo? It sounded nice, but I think he said altogether it cost something like $18,000!! What an idiot." (and before anyone goes off on that number, maybe you can go lower, but for many in here that didn't even buy your speakers, for some it didn't even buy all your cables). Point is, the audio dealers and we are a rarefied niche. We get to buy cool stuff, take it home and enjoy it. They are struggling to survive. So again, maybe cut them some slack. Of course there is that awesome Crosley system at Best Buy. They've got lots of people who've gone through greeter training to be sure to give you that big smile and anyway that Crosley system will even play your old cassettes !!!!
Whenever I am dealing with a local store, I always deal with the owner so there is never any commission issues. If I am seriously looking at something, I will make sure they can have it set up when I get there to save time. If they are a one person operation, I will make sure they will be there regardless of hours posted if I want to stop by (doesn't happen nearly as often as in the early 80's). They have lives and go to doctors, etc. and occasionally stray from the hours.
If you make your intentions clear, you will earn their respect as you won't waste their time. I see the value in buying from a local guy for support and expertise. They can give you an educated opinion, and you can learn usually. The ones that are surviving are in low overhead spaces they either own or are very low rent.
You want the dealer to take time away from the customer who actually bought from him/them and he's now installing the equipment the customer purchased to come to the store so you can kick tires?
At a high end store in The Bay Area I was looking for some expensive loudspeakers. The salesman had a silent partner who pretended to also be a customer..
To heck with them. Their prices are way too high anyway. Their customer base is rich folks willing to pay top dollar No discount prices anyway. They'll be out of business within 18 months.
I've had great experience with my local stereo stores in Souther California. All are knowledgeable folks that are clearly in the business for the passion of it and are trying to make it work.
I really try to buy local when I can. One thing that keeps me from doing so more often than I'd like to is 1) limited return policies vs online (if I want to audition a $3k preamp it's not helpful to do without hearing in my system). 2) The used market is so robust and accessible, especially when you factor in a 10% sales tax.
The second can't be fixed, but I really encourage the retailers to work out some policy where folks can more easily try stuff out at home. All the customers are aware of how easy that is to do with the online merchants.
I am also in the Bay Area and also familiar with those stores. The one who said he charges $250 - I was floored when I walked in and he told that. I had cash with me and wanted to listen to Harbeth speakers, Never did get to listen to them. All he did was talk and talk about how great and knowledgable he was. Anyway, not only did he not get that $8K sale (plus some upgraded speaker wire), I have in the meantime upgraded my DAC which was $6K, I didn't even bother to go to his store for that. One perhaps two lost sales due to his ego and attitude.
I live in the Seattle area and frankly the options for audio equipment is pretty pathetic. You either have a bigger retailer with the same equipment (that I have no interest in) that rarely changes or the smaller guys that cater to limited budget or smaller systems. As others have stated, the equipment universe is very vast and it's difficult to audition equipment that interests you. Then it involves audio shows and visiting out of state dealers.
Listening habits have changed to portable systems rather than to larger dedicated two channel systems. I don't listen to headphones (except on an airplane) but I'm one of those boomers with money to spend.
What a shame. Seattle used to have Magnolia, Speakerlab, Hawthorne and Definitive, all on the same street no more than a 3 minute walk apart. Now we have Definitive for those who want to drop six figures on whatever they're told to buy, and Hawthorne for budget/used. Magnolia, that served your middle class bread and butter high end, and Speakerlab for the more budget/technical oriented serious audiophile, are both long gone. This is beyond sad. Tragic, it is.
We know the reason, here in Seattle anyway, and it ain't audio. Over on the Eastside though we have our own. Chuxpona and Chuctoberfest were a success, and so we are looking at MCES some time early next year. Stay tuned.
The Rose Hill Alehouse down the street went out of business because they didn’t pay their liquor license. A long time employee said no it was because they weren’t paying their unemployment insurance. Ran into one of the owners told me the landlord jacked the lease when it came due. They were doing so much business it was hard to find parking. Another one said the partnership wasn’t working out. This is a place I was in on a regular basis right down the street from where I live. Every single one of the stories I heard had a lot of validity. Take your pick.
All I know, the market has bifurcated. You can see it even just looking at the one example. Definitive Audio used to cater to guys like me looking around trying things out maybe find something worth buying every once in a while. They did some install and sold some big systems but they had "us" covered as well. Gradually they shifted higher and higher until one day I go in and see a system that was $1.3M. Yes, million. And they kicked me out of the room saying they had to get it set up for a customer. Because, to them I am no longer a customer. See how that works?
Magnolia the space was turned into a CityMD where I actually worked for about a year. (Now CityMD is gone.) All that whole time the SpeakerLab store sat vacant, the algae-streaked SpeakerLab awning still advertising what had been. Those two catered to what used to be the great mid-level high end market. So now we have Definitive selling million dollar turnkey systems to Microserfs and Goolagers, and Hawthorne selling used and affordable entry-level gear intended for your typical apartment or corner of a living room type setup. Huge gap between the two which is really sad.
But as to why? Might as well ask the Alehouse bartender, probably has as good a guess as any.
@chorus - I live in San Francisco, and I enjoy popping into Music Lovers on occasion. You are incorrect however as to its location - it's not in downtown SF, it's over by the Fillmore. I like the 'by appointment' shops, too. Not a big deal to make an appointment, and you get to spend a lot of time there. The other place has tons of gear, but in addition to charges for auditioning, they are far from the friendliest hi-fi dealers in town. The Music Lovers guys are great.
are the high end stores that have survived this far actually struggling ? ... in any of the stores I'm a "regular" I certainly wouldn't think of myself as a customer in a $1.3M system room they were setting up for an actual customer for the system...I would expect to be politely asked to leave !!!
I buy gear on the used market. If I were to buy new,I would definitely buy from a local shop. Because I KNOW I'm buying used,I can't justify going into a shop,and knowingly waste someone's time. I would rather buy blind than do that. I worked retail sales in the past,and that is not a very good feeling to have someone walk in that you know isn't going to buy from you.
All of the excellent stories above serve to illustrate in technicolor the dilemma faced by anyone trying to sell music retail. Back in the day I sold pianos and organs at one time and then hifi gear at another, and I confronted the contradiction. Even remaining record stores have to face it all the time. I’ll describe two intolerable situations:
1) A music/instrument/hifi store is being run by just 2 or 3 people, all of whom are busy with customers or housekeeping chores. None of them are making much above minimum and all of them have been there since 9AM when two people walked in and then left without buying anything. The phone rings occasionally but who’s to answer? If they’re on commission, they may not have had a paycheck recently or have run up a tidy debt to the boss to repay the "draw" they've been paid against future earnings. I figured out that a commissioned salesman in a failing store will inevitably earn what amounts to belowa minimum wage! "This isn’t a concert hall!", I remember a colleague spitting after spending 2 hours with a classical lover who left without buying anything. Playing a Steinway or a Hifi for a half-hour to entertain a man whose wife is in a nearby store rubs the wrong way. The inevitable result is retail burnout. It occurs to sales staff in any retail business and unfortunately afflicts long-term employees first. Then the infection spreads and turnover results. I had a sales manager in a high-pressure TV store tell me, "Nobody drives all the way down I-35, looks for the turnoff, negotiates the access road to the parking lot and then walks all the way across that lot to get to our store just ’to look’!"
2) A customer walks into a music store to buy a few accessories and look at a possible new pre-amp plus advice. Should he go tubes? Separate power supply? But everyone is busy: in the back, with a customer, cleaning up Aisle 6, in the loo. Finally he is offered a fixed appointment to play the Steinway, or the new Magicos at leisure the following day.
Who’s wrong!? It’s a cycle of abuse. Any really experienced retail salesperson will gladly ask you to "Walk a mile in my shoes." This dilemma exemplifies the tensions that have accellerated retail’s nosedive. RETAIL BRICK/MORTAR HIFI IS DEAD!!
D-E-A-D! When the customer/salesman relationship turns adversarial, it’s all over! This does not bode well for a nation experienceing late stage capitalism.
The slope is slippery and we’ll see how steep. Only the Golden Rule can save us!
The customer is always right, but man, can they be A holes! 😁
Like all business, it can be done correctly and it can be done wrong. Some of these guys are probably really busy too and tire kickers really can be an issue. They just need to be more proactive about how they go about it I guess. Seems like a good formula would be to be by appointment only most of the week and maybe open on Friday and Saturday?
These can be substantial puchases so there is no reason appointments can’t work.
I can hardly imagine a tougher business to be involved in. Those still operating B&M audio shops must have a real love for the industry. Back in the day, high end audio shops were amazing places to visit, where you could hear new gear, and dream about what was possible in your own home. Circumstances including the onset of the internet, direct to customer purchase options, and demographic changes in younger listeners/buyers have made it very difficult to profitably operate a B&M high end audio business. When profitability declines, business owners cut unnecessary costs so it is not surprising to see dealers carrying less product inventory, reducing their hours of operation, cutting sales staff, and spending less time on customers who do not appear to be ready to make a purchase. I have friends who worked in promanent local audio shops, but I have not been inside of one in 15 years, ever since I started to purchase gear off of Audiogon or directly from the manufacturers. I refused to waste their time.
for every mistreated real buyer walking in with wads of cash ready to buy, there must be 20-50-100 a-holes who mercilessly abuse the retailers' time, energy, facilities etc for their own benefit
I only visit a HiFi store if I'm going to buy something or if they have a customer event with a manufacture. I know the stores basic inventory in the Seattle area. If I travel, thats a different story and may pop into a retailer noting that I'm traveling and just wanted to see what they have and not waste a lot of their time.
We get the occasional phone call from (generally) a local who’ll ask:
"What can you do for me for ( 500~1K$) ?"
Sell you parts for a DIY installation, as long as it’s ’residential grade’.....and not too large. The bigger the *X*, the more it will cost or will need to be ’commercial grade’.
That typically gets a few moments of silence...then, the usual ’thanks, ’bye.’
The committed may ask for a number on an item or 2. That may start a ’U p/u’ sale or the previous ending to the inquiry.
We DO treat those that show up the same as any of our commercial clients; friendly, willing to give advice on their project-in-mind, and help load.
Our commercial clients typically begin with an email that stems from a referral from a architect, designer, or a pleased previous client....the latter, usually what we call a ’high-end res client’. We, like the b&m shops we prefer to go to, are willing to ’hold your hand’ and give you the outcome You Want.
Match (I call it ’spoof’, but I’ve got a sense of humour about that process) you homes’ architecture? We do that. *S* Quite nicely, if I allow a back pat on my own time & effort.
Even with the ’com’(mercial) client, with ping-pong e/m’s, there exists the likelyhood of ’issues’ that require what I call ’fire control’; as in ’put it the F-out’ and move on...
(Current project is 80ish mi. south, a major new install for a large city. GC promised that everything would be ready for us early Oct. when we began to set up late Sept. They’re still playing ’grab-butt’, since this is NOT the typical project in nature.)
OK... Google "NC custom playgrounds". Scroll down below the map.
Our name begins with where we’re located.
We don’t have a huge margin either. Sometimes we get ’snagged’, if you will.
But you will still get what you expect...and typically a detail or so that you didn’t.
THAT....is our je ne sais quoi as to how we approach our work.
Crafty art? *shrug* Your call. ;)
It’s probably a ’good thing’ I don’t rep audio....for now.... ;)
*s* Enjoy our website, J
....not b&m...steel&concrete....and of course...the 'Net.
I still say a majority of the decline can be attributed to generational proclivities. There's virtually little to no input from any of the thirty-somethings in this thread.
Blaming "tire kickers" (the first I've heard this term applied to audio shoppers was in reading this thread) wholeheartedly for this is unfair, just the same as blaming snobby salesmen.
I can see the issue from both perspectives but I have to offer an analogy of car shopping for further clarification:
The shopper knows full well what they can reasonably afford. Over 90% of the average demographic will purposely avoid entering a Bentley/Rolls Royce or Lamborghini dealership because there's nothing there affordable (this is the equivalent of visiting an audio shop you know has stratospheric systems in there that you know you cannot afford). You will, however, have persons that are either serious ("I want an S Class Mercedes S65 AMG Black Series with custom Designo leather interior, upgraded wheels and Burmester sound system") and those that are browsing (or "tire-kicking" as some pejoratively refer to them). The browsers, in my opinion, are comparison-shopping, as they have more than likely visited other dealerships and are looking for the best value for their money.
If you're wanting to purchase an upscale luxury vehicle, will you only visit the BMW dealer if you don't know precisely what you want? Wouldn't you read internet reviews, watch review videos of the interested vehicles? Wouldn't you also visit Mercedes, Lexus, Audi? Someone will get your sale. You may have really liked the features and performance of the Lexus but the salesperson treated you as a "waste of time" so you decided to buy the BMW instead because, not only was the vehicle comparable but the service was more accommodating. The salesperson realized the customer was making an important decision and spending a large amount of money and didn't want to make any mistakes. True, this does not bode well for commissioned sales staff, but it's the nature of the business. You never know if that person will actually return and purchase from you because of your patience. Not everyone is a walking sack of money (even if they're in a BMW or Lexus dealership). The internet direct-order equivalent for something like this would be Carvana or similar.
Apply this to high end audio and you'll get a clear picture. The disadvantage of high end audio is the lack of financing options industrywide. This one aspect alone would expand the customer base (especially for millennials already wrestling with student loan debt). Until then, every high end salesman is Captain Ahab.
In other words don't go looking at a Focal Grande Utopia/Naim system with Martin Logan/Benchmark money. As much as I would want to hear a pair of Focal Grande Utopias, I couldn't just go down there and expect them to turn them on for me (if I don't know the owner). For sellers, don't write off a customer as a waste of time because they're just listening to a system. They probably traveled from out of state to listen to it, and if it is not an "appointments only" type of establishment, it makes sense to accommodate this because this person may return after they've done their comparison-shopping. Service is expected to be paramount in brick-and-mortar establishments. Not every customer that walks through the door of an establishment will buy something. Maybe that's my millennial logic.
I can tell you why some dealer succeed while others struggle. Dealers who are successful number one work hard, very hard. They visit their customers homes and set everything up. They have a consistent approach where the speakers they sell, their components and cables and accessories all work well together to create synergy. And again, they go to peoples houses and set it all up with the knowledge of how to deliver great sound. They also focus on established lines *people want to buy." They do not chase the flavor of the month. They are relationship focused, both with their customers and their vendors. They have demo items to loan out and demonstrate in their stores. They often work late nights *at their customers houses* because successful people work during the day, they avail themselves to accommodate their schedules.
Dealers who are not successful tend to be lazy from their customers perspective. They don’t go to peoples houses to set everything up, instead they glad hand their customers with a product and a hand shake, no in home set up, and often times no chance to audition before purchase unless in their store that often times does not sound all that great. They waste time with non serious customers or they cannot tell the difference between a real audiophile and a poser. In short they understand neither high end audio or business so they pick the wrong lines, can’t get good sound because they are clueless, they spend too much of their profit and so, have thin demo inventory and they don't know what they are doing.
Yours in music,
Ted Denney III Lead Designer/CEO Synergistic Research Inc.
+1 And an interesting view from the manufacturing end of the industry.
Somehow, B&M retailers must rediscover the "value added" that used to come with shopping with a specialty store. It may actually cost too much money off the bottom line for many small shops to stay operating. They must begin by offering everything the online dealer offers (price, loaners, shipping) and add-on: service of all kinds.
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