The five years I sold and installed Hi F gear in Miami, FL. That was in the late 70's early 80's. Home theater was just starting to develop. Most stores were 2 channel only. Early on I worked at Luskin's Hi Fi as a commissioned salesman. Later I worked for myself installing big systems in the houses of very wealthy people. Most of my equipment came from Sound Components, Miami's only real High End store. I got my own equipment at saleman's comp which could in some cases be less than the store payed.
Commissioning salespeople is OK as long as all the equipment is commissioned at the same rate. Luskin's use to "spiff" it's salespeople for selling certain gear which they made more money on and unfortunately it was usually the inferior gear that got spiffed. It is very difficult for small retail businesses to run on salary.
In Hi Fi there are two basic types of customers, those that are price sensitive and those that are convenience sensitive. Today, those that are price sensitive and those that know what they are doing and do not need any help, shop online. The convenience sensitive people shop in local stores. Today these people are usually more interested in theater and want one set up in their home. Smart dealers evolved into comprehensive theater stores that just happened to carry Hi Fi gear. This requires a lot more skill and attention in terms of carpentry and installation. It also involves much more expensive displays increasing overhead. Tire kickers are a PITA and the stores do not have time to deal with them. They are out doing installations with the minimal help they can afford. Many of them are one or two man operations. They have to do business by appointment and their customers appreciate this and like it. Those of you who do not like it are welcome to shop online. The stores would prefer you did. If you want to kick tires go to Best Buy and have at it. |
Also, one person’s idea of a great sales experience will not be the same as the next. Too right. What some here have shared that they find so displeasing in their (less than great) sales experience I may often prefer. I do recognize that perhaps I come from a different culture - just the way it is. |
Being an audio manufacturer, I have to honestly say that regarding this post - most likely - nobody here is their customer base (maybe a few). And people don't tell their rich friends to go visit a dealer. I tired not to waste a dealers time but there are so many people in my area that I can go hear something - even Fremer is close by.
I did go to Audio Connection yesterday to hear the new Vandersteen speakers with Richard there to support John Rutan. While he has some expensive components, he is not in the exotic price range.
The "rich" people who buy my products basically ask how much and when can I come buy and set the system up. There is no price haggle. Now their friends do hear their systems and then they come to me to do the same thing.
You aren't going to buy $200K speakers, $100K amps, $50K preamps, $10K cables, etc., so stop wasting their time - period. Even if they were ten times better that what you own, you still are not going to buy anything.
Happy Listening.
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You know what chaps my hide? Mom and pops who sell on Amazon and feel the need to open whatever you buy and stick their gd business card in there. Yes, I admit I am extremely anal. If I buy something new, I don't want it opened before it gets to me. Just put your stupid business card in the shipping box. I'll see it. |
Let me throw out a few thoughts here. If you’re planning to go to a high end store, your main purpose is to physically be in the room with expensive gear you are possibly interested in and to make your own impressions - if you are there to simply browse with absolutely no intent of buying anything from them, you shouldn’t be there. So, as with any other expensive purchase you should insist on individual customer service, and how do you get that? By making an appointment at a time where you and (hopefully) a knowledgeable representative will be there to help you audition the item(s) you are interested in. Why would you expect anything less? You could always go to your local Magnolia store and wait around while some associate who was put in the music area "for the day" tries to sell you something, anything. So OK, not having personnel present any time you want to pop into a store can be irritating, but that restriction has been in place forever - called "Hours of Operation". It’s just a little stricter nowadays. In addition, look at it from the other side - if you were having someone come to your house/apartment/storage shed to do some work for you, would you be OK with "Well, I can do the work for you - don’t know when I’ll show up and I might not show at all, but I expect you to be home whenever and IF I decide to show up". As far as the pressure that an appointment makes on you to buy, that is not exclusive to certain retailers anywhere, high end or not. Ever been to a car dealership, and did you buy the first car the salesman tried to put you in at the price they threw out? How about a timeshare seminar? The pressure to buy is self-inflicted; if you haven’t learned to say NO easily, that skill should probably be added to your priority list of skills to pick up. Once you’re acquired that, you are immune to any high pressure sales pitches. Until then, tell yourself beforehand that you’re going in to audition but you are NOT going to buy anything until after you’ve gone home and considered it, and if you DO decide to buy something you’ve heard, go back to the store/associate, hear it again to make sure, and buy it. I’ve gotten to the age where I don’t waste my nor the salesman’s time; I tell them what I’m looking for, how much generally I’m willing to spend, what my current system consists of, and let them know what I like/don’t like after hearing it. |
What a complicated question! Just a couple thoughts.
Appointments. I resist them, though I have shopped and purchased gear from brick/mortar. Why? It ramps up the pressure. It almost feels like an engagement. For me, personally, if I'm going to listen to gear that costs thousands, I am really not going to go to a store with an intention to buy. I'm not intending to tire-kick, but I need to feel at ease in order to listen objectively. I have to imagine there are others like me. If everything comes together, and service can help, here, I will buy and it will be at that store. Their expertise deserves to be paid for.
Specialized stores still exist -- mattress stores, jewelry stores, cheese shops, etc. Those lines have found ways to give customers a reason to shop with them, rather than at a supermarket or Macy’s. If hifi could get itself disentangled from consumer electronics, it might stand a chance. But since most people listen ubiquitously (e.g. while they’re cooking, commuting, etc.), this is a challenge. In some ways, it might take the music industry to push this change, but since they want to push content, they couldn’t care less if it was coming across bluetooth headphones.
Best Buy -- upped their lines a few years ago. It’s not hifi enough for me, but there are some good things there. Yes, it’s still a terrible space to evaluate audio equipment, at least one can fall into it while shopping for something else. If HiFI could become part of, say, Nordstroms, there might be a chance for people to both make it a destination and also fall into a shopping experience for hifi.
Combining online with in-person. The Music Room is building a listening space after years as an online seller. It seems that online retailers could follow suit and build or rent spaces to demo gear. That way, when nothing else is happening (e.g. foot traffic) they could just do the online sales/service work they’d be doing anyway. |
Wow!
This thread is something else. I choose not to jump in all the way, but, as a former "High-End" (HE) dealer during the wonderful 1970's and early '80's when the inventions were a tidal flood, I can tell you that there are as many types of HE dealers as there are anything else in the world of retail.
A customer's attitude has a lot to do with the way they are treated by "normal" (if there are such things) dealers, but of course there are people who behave the way they do whether they are selling or buying, so individual personalities enter into the equation. All my fellow HE (and other) dealers back then were pretty nice. All we wanted to do was make you happy so you would shop with us exclusively. I had tire kickers, discount-seekers (FAIR TRADE was in effect back then--look it up), and everything in between. Once, Bill Johnson paid a surprise visit to my shop and told me he did not think my showroom was conducive to selling his stuff--this is when Audio Research and Magnepan were aligned and selling their stuff as a "system."
Anyway, we sold a ton of it, so kind of proved it was the people not the setting that made the business successful. Some manufacturers had ridiculous rules that small shops could never follow, some could not do enough for you, and others just filled your orders. SO, from the point of view of the dealer, the customer was sometimes the easiest part of the equation.
For those who find dealers today are not to their liking, TELL THEM, politely, what your perception is and then LISTEN to them. Some will blow you off--the fool I sold my shop to was like that--some will try to explain the situation and work to earn your business, and others will just hang-up or walk away. I have no idea why, but if you work with a dealer, more than likely he or she will work with you. If you are a jerk, and there seem to be several on here from the inane prattle I read in some posters who try to dominate the various threads (you know who you are), you will be summarily dismissed and asked to leave. The one thing the idiot I sold my store to did was throw out jerks, and being a large person, he could with impunity. It was not my style, but it worked for him for a while, I guess. I understand some posters' frustrations, and I am sorry you are having that experience. Keep trying to find a dealer who will work with you. I am certain they are out there.
And remember, it is all about the magic of the MUSIC.
Cheers! |
You only needed to make an appointment! At least it wasn’t as bad as Audio Vision in SF which charges $150 for the honor of listening to something in their store, even if you’re a serious customer. Oh, and depending on who’s asking, another $250 for their advice. Hahahahaa. At least there is Music Lovers Audio which is awesome and has some of the most friendly people I’ve met in high end retail.
I actually called Audio Vision first when looking for a system, and the person was so rude I never would have gone there. Went to Music Lovers and over the past 2 years probably spent $350k in there. So the OP is right. These shitty HIFi stores suck and are probably turning people off hifi. |
tubebufferI
have be careful with word here. This idea that store should be there to
serve you is knuckle dragging liberal philosophy full of expectation ... Nonsense. This has nothing to do with politics.
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All you old Geezers here are making some great points. My Audiophile Journey is almost over after dipping my feet back into it 3 years ago. For twenty years I’ve been more into 5.1 including upmixing my 2ch stuff via Dolby Pro Logic II and now the “new” Dolby Surround on my Sony STR-DN1080 and all the wonderful variations on 2ch upmixing on my Onkyo PR-SC5530AV Preamp feeding an Orchard Audio Ultra Amplifier and BAT VK50-SE Preamp. My Speakers have always been hombrew except for my Bose 901’s and my loaner KEF R3’s.
It doesn’t matter if it was 36 years ago in my hometown of Hamilton, Ontario buying my Dual CS515 w/ the ever crappy Ortofon OM10. 23 years later and 6 different Carts, I’m done with Vinyl.
20 years ago, in Phillipsburg, NJ, I traded in my beloved Adcom GFP-345 and GFA-545II that I purchased 8 years earlier at a Dealer in my Hometown for a Denon AVR-1802 and a used Adcom GFA-555II. That Hometown Dealer also had a pair of Mirage M3si’s that were gonna be mine but my layaway payments only covered the Amp/Preamp. My post college purchase only would cover so much. I burned the Dealer on the Mirages and am not proud of it to this day. I built a pair of Homebrews instead and saved some money there.
Fast forward to now and Scottsdale/Phoenix AZ. Plenty of Dealers here but none are to my budget.
My entire rig currently is bought online without an audition used or new. PS Audio gives you 30 days trial and TMR Audio gives you two weeks trial on their used stuff. So going to an intimidating Dealer by appointment only is a non starter for me.
I honestly feel for these Dealers who no longer can afford to cater to us budget Audiophiles and can only survive on the high ticket crap that I’ll never be able to afford and even if I could, wouldn’t on my twisted principles.
I’m that 16 year old High School kid that bought a TT/cart in 1985, went on to buy an Amp/Preamp after college, and then went 5.1 after marriage and a mortgage. As Newlyweds back then, we enjoyed watching Movies together while I fell asleep listening to two channel music late at night on the 5.1 rig 😂. Our newborn also enjoyed watching his Cartoons on that rig.
Now that I’m a non upmixing 2ch Audiophool and slowly revamping my 5.1 rig in the same room with the same Speakers (currently a blend of homebrew and consumer). I’ll never buy from a Dealer ever again. You’ve lost us Budget folks. To those in my 50+ age group that can finally afford all the high ticket stuff.
May God Bless You….but I’m out ! |
Audio merchandizing has changed since my good experiences with B&M prior to internet. Online business is competitor and likely perceived as a winning competitor by B&M personnel. I suspect they assume each new visitor may be comparison shopping via internet, greater level of vetting or ignoring if busy would be expected.
I only know that my days of visiting B&M ended when I realized the internet was indeed competing in my expenditure of hard earned dollars. I came to understand I was misusing the B&M by extracting benefits with no cost to me.
I'm fine with internet business model, I have to do the hard work of determining products to purchase, I have to purchase the product to demo in my home system, finally either keep or resale to fund the next purchase, diy audio system acquisition is golden for me!
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Due to the pandemic we have the same scenario here, by appointment only. Some guys have even closed their store fronts and are actually now selling out if their homes, or out of a small office space they've rented instead, and you guessed it...by appointment only. |
The world has changed. Several years ago I realized the retail high-end hi-fi was destine to become either the domain of the Interior Decorator or the Web. I don't need to explain the web part, folks with some knowledge are educated sufficiently to know how this stuff works and (except for intragate wire pulling) install and even enjoy the DIY aspect of the hobby.
The Interior Decorator responds to the issue of a room as presentation space, a whole presentation of sight and sound. Not a sound room but a space to impress, to generate envy, and the illusion of culture and taste. Hi-end hi-fi is much like expensive furniture and paintings, The goal is not a listening space but a presentation space, a small piece of theater is a larger construct to announce attributes of the owner. In the end it is not about a personal musical experience but a larger more public ego experience.
Both are legitimate desires using the same hardware, just different goals. |
Over the last 15 years been in 3 audio shops.
The first one I went into to buy a power conditioner, and while there asked about a used CD player they had for sale. The salesman asked me about my current player (musical fidelity A5) then proclaimed in a snooty pretentious way how all Musical Fidelity equipement sux. bought the conditioner and never went back.
The second time I went into to audition a VPI prime, very nice store, nice salesman, his associated electronics were way above mine yet the sound sucked. I asked him about why he didn't position the speakers correctly, why he had equipment rack between the speakers, why no power conditioning, no vibration remedies, lowfi cabling etc and he stated he didn't want to optimize things and then have a customer disappointed when they setup things half arsed in their home. Puzzling thoughts, I bought the VPI Prime anyway despite being underwhelmed by the demo. It sounded great when I set it up at home.
Third store I made an appointment, I wanted to audition Hegel H20 and Bryston amp for my new Magico A3 speakers, Very highly respected audio store in Delaware that carried Magico. Nice store nice salesman, but they setup Magico A3's with these amps in a room where the speakers were 20 feet from the sidewalls 20 feet from the rear wall and 20 feet of open room behind the listening chair. How the hey am I supposed to get a valid sonic impression? Bought the Hegel anyway and very happy with it at home.
All in all I'm thankful for Audiogon reviews and opinions to get me started and don't expect much at the bricks and mortifying stores |
In the Southern California area I've visited AudioElement in Pasadena, known for their turntable bar, Scott Walker Audio in Tustin, many custom options for sampling and Hi-Fi Heaven in Whittier, selling McIntosh products since 1957 in the same location. A family business that can repair, optimize or find any McIntosh product ever made.
All have limited hours, easily found on their web-sites or locations. All are willing to see you by appointment. All with friendly knowledgeable staff, each with unique personalities. You may relate to some individuals more than others, but that's just life.
Neither sell every product or accessory in the market place, but all are willing to help you find anything or propose an alternative.
These are small examples of a rich fabric of high end audio dealers across the nation. I for one appreciate them, buy from them along with on-line and believe there's always a place for them. |
In this era and times, something in me miss the 50 and 60 years just before Kennedy ....i know old man nostalgia...But all things were simplier...
Something crawling and flying in me says that tomorrow many like me will miss human interactions of any kind....If all thing goes well with robots and A.I.
But an another voice spell to me that with social and climate change, the way the customers are received and the ways customers are a plague for some sellers, the way customers "rape" human trust of the vendors or vice versa, in spite of all that ,all that we will be dearly miss...
"Times are changing".... |
Stores like Best Buys rarely have anyone knowledgeable and they are generally dark and unwelcoming. If you wanted to start to stock a store include many of the high quality mini components now available. I would not ever buy a 54" television again because they are too big. Quality screens and recent projectors are a much better deal and they can roll up into the ceiling when you want a big screen. Most stores are selling too many items and categories. There is a big opportunity here. |
NO ONE ask me a question or gave CRAP. The wife had 50k in the purse and a gun. I'm thinking of a missing scene from Breaking Bad... and then there's that US law requiring IRS/FinCEN Form 8300, Report of Cash Payments Over $10,000 Received in a Trade or Business. |
When I go “shopping” for costly good I make sure that I do not wear an expensive watch or shoes and what goes in between follows suite!
that allows me to decide not the sales force as to what I purchase!
one time a auto salesman looked at me and pointed to the emblem on the car and asked if I could afford it!
true story!
however my dealings with audio sales has been excellent in the past- I recall once getting a call stating that the dealer had a pair of speakers I was looking for and but was six months prior to the call that I expressed my interest!
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I am a retired territory sales manager (not in audio) who saw, over the years, how some business persons "get it" and are successful no matter where they are, some are lucky enough to have a great location and are successful until they aren't and others never "get it."
Retail is a please the people business - if you're selling something they want or need at reasonable prices and don't treat your staff and customers like sh*t, odds are you will do well. But the potential market for any sales category decreases with higher prices as you have fewer potential customers, even with liberal credit policies. The Porsche dealer will rarely have more potential customers than the Chevy dealer. That said, if you sell enough Chevies, you can make more $$ than the Porsche dealer, you just have to have more transactions.
Repair work and installations are more profitable, in the long run, than straight up retail sales in most markets and that's why the OP and others are running into the gone on an installation signs. That's the reality of business these days as it's the only way for many dealers to add value and profits. |
I believe customer service is the best business model. We have a few of those stores here in New England that only offer high end gear and that's it. Make an appointment! That's okay as long as there's no pressure sales. There is a store in Chicopee MA that does car audio installs but also high end audio. They have very consistent hours but also have a strong online presence with extremely good pricing. Great customer service and being treated well. That for me gets the sale!
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You should try going to the Magnolia store in Lone Tree, Colorado. The manager there is the most unfriendly person on the planet and then he expects you to buy something from him.
Our largest dealer in town with the best lines have sales people who are stuffy. As though you are doing them a favor to talk to you. I have been there several times and I get stuck with the same sales person. I have asked him simple questions, already knowing the answer, and he responds I don't know but let me find out. All I know is if I worked there a couple of weeks to a month and someone asked me a question I would have the knowledge to answer them. Sales people either have the passion for what they do or they don't. I would think most people with passion would retain knowledge because they were excited about what they are doing. To make things worse their sales people come across stuffy.
I also think buying such expensive equipment would provide enough margins to allow a customer to negotiate. I think what happens is when customers get turned down, they simply walk out of the store and buy it over the phone with an out of town merchant. The merchant feels they can bury the purchase, make a few bucks and no one will be the wiser. In the meantime the local stuffy hi fi store goes out of business.
Right now car dealers are selling cars at full sticker price because they can. You wait...things will change and customers will get even with them by offering a huge take it or leave it discount. Those of us who were treated like dirt will remember and we will get even. No one, regardless of the market, wants to be taken advantage of. |
Almost forgot to mention.
Arnie, originator of Audiogon, had a store in Ann Arbor, Mi called Accutronics, best audio store ever. Took in trades and purchased used items from all over nation, just tons of used high end to pick from, also sold new. He'd let me listen for hours, set up potential purchases of mine, whether new or used, into his showroom systems. So giving of his time, I had tons of questions, learned so much from him. Occasionally, he'd invite my fiancee and I to his upstairs private system, I recall lots of Jadis equipment, my first listens to extreme high end, just amazing! My system at the time was sorrowful in comparison. I liked the feeling of purchasing items from him, enjoyed supporting a business so generous with it's customers. Arnie spoiled me for what I expected from audio stores, sigh! |
1. Why do you feel like you can't/won't be able to resist "pressure" to buy? To buy or not to buy, that is the question ... for you to answer. (apologies to Shakespeare)
2. I understand that - for you - making an appointment may be less convenient than casually dropping in, but an appointment benefits you and the store owner. You benefit by having store personnel expecting you and dedicating time to your shopping experience. The store benefits by ensuring that staff are available and prepared to serve a potential customer.
3. The last dedicated hi-fi retailer near me closed its doors more than 20 yrs ago. A few high-end home theater/listening room design/build/install shops that also represent some top brands now are the closest thing in town. I drive approx. 3 hrs to visit hi-fi shops - none of which requires appointments, but does accommodate appointments if requested. My browsing has been "drop-in," but as a consumer I can see benefits to having an appointment, even if I lived nearby.
4. Do you complain about having to make appointments for doctors, dentists, auto service, etc.?
just my thoughts |
@sns You're making me nostalgic. I traded in a bunch of stuff (mainly ill-advised purchases) and bought a big Cary 300B amp and Proac speakers from Arnie. I was upstairs a number of times, and he also held manufacturers'/distributors' visits up there. Down in the dungeon like basement was the affordable stuff and all the traded-in stuff. An Aladdin's cave. He and that young guy who assisted him sold a lot of it on ebay. I believe it was that experience--shifting all that stock--that led him to create Audiogon. |
There was a time where you didn't have to make a appointment for doctors, dentists, or auto service. |
The destruction of all "past" human values or life, even what is a doctor and what he "freely" can do or not; all past capitalism conceptions are superseeded also by a new monstruous beast called worldwide fascism...
Even the war between China and Us is a superficial movement on the visible part of the sea...
What enlightened times to live and think!
I am optimist ,spiritual illumination is on the porch....
I miss old times and i cannot wait for the new times to come....
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I have a good friend that has a problem making decisions. He will go into a high end store and spend an hour or two asking questions… he goes to shows and talks his way through the show and rooms. He somewhat proudly proclaims he can waste an enormous amount of salesman’s time. He is a bit autistic, it is not malicious… but it is a waste of salespeople’s time… and his own. They usually figure out he is not buying anything in about 45 minutes or so and go off to help someone else. In the long run, the joke is actually on my friend… he is 70 and has 1/2 a great system… that sounds terrible and has wasted most of his life not making decisions or making bad ones, not accomplishing the things he wanted. But sales people have to put up with people wasting their time. |
no amount of reading will substitute for a decent knowledgeable, enthusiastic salesman. I would be devastated if they went out of business and I find the original post very arrogant for generalizing based on ONE store.
I had enough horrible online, factory direct experience and 95% positive experience with retail stores.
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I used to have Mick Jagger and Paul McCartney tag along on my HiFi auditions, but as of recently I have to chose one or the other.
Thinking of switching to George Clooney as my sidekick (I just do not enjoy picking sides with the other two).
Anyway, always received super service everywhere we went.
DeKay |
No amount of reading. I see. Just curious. Which "decent knowledgeable, enthusiastic salesman" would recommend Tekton, Raven, Decware, all of which are sold direct? What salesman would recommend Origin Live, Herron, Soundsmith and other top brands with hardly any retail presence?
You're right, no amount of reading "will substitute for". Greatly exceed, is more like it. |
My experience has been mixed. I have probably visited 8 different brick and mortar stores over my years. I think I have purchased 2 components from them. The rest being through web sites. My best experience was in Boca Raton where the owner tried hard to get me to buy Wilsons. He loved Roxy Music and qued the music up with the intent of selling his products in an amazing listening room with chairs that one could just melt into. I listened intently. He was all in on the Wilsons and Roxy Music. It was intense. Great music, great setting, great vibe. Everything about it was great. Except, I just wasn't there on the Wilsons. Had just come from another showroom where had listened to some Vandersteen Quatro CTs and the comparison made my mind up. However, it could have gone the opposite direction if my brain had perceived the sound differently. Also been to places where they perform perfunctory auditions because they sense you are not the right costumer for their product. In the end as a seller, I think you need to lay the groundwork for future purchases. I can say that if I go back to Boca Raton, I would definitely stop at that B&M store and maybe I would buy something. Multiply that by a thousand future customers, and that is a lot of folks who might buy something. At an average cost of a couple of thousand per component, 1 buyer every 50 customers is not trivial.
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When I said “all a store can offer is service” it means demo’ing audio equipment, and offering easy trade-ins and easier returns.
And I’ve run audio stores myself. Yes, they can run them anyway they like, they just won’t be successful or profitable by insulting or ignoring customers. Which a lot of people on this thread have clearly said have happened to them.
As an example, walk into a high end watch/Rolex store or other high end jewelry store, if they treated you like dirt or refused to show you a watch or diamond ring, what would you do? You’d walk out, you know you would. Why give audio stores a bye?
Also, Being helpful and useful is not knuckle dragging. I find firemen, doctors and garbage men helpful and useful and I expect those groups and others to be so. So yet again somebody tries to turn an interesting discussion into a stupid and very useless political insult. Stay on topic. The topic is audio stores and how they are run, nothing to do with liberals or conservatives. |
@deadhead1000, your brain has been fried by too many hippie drugs and lazy jams. Go back to Haight/Ashbury! (Hey now, my friend, I am SO kidding! I can't count the shows I saw between 1978 and 1995. I *still* miss Jerry ....)
There's a strong undercurrent of nostalgia in this thread, and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm of that age that used to haunt stereo stores in the late 70s and 80s. Even mid-sized cities had three or four stores back then and even a grubby teenager like me could walk in and listen. And dream. And lust.
It seems to me that overall the equipment has gotten better and the high-end is brilliant. It's vastly easier to buy and sell used equipment. There's more access to information, and forums like this are a remarkable way to share the hobby and learn a lot. But buying online is a lousy substitute for the live, sensuous experience of a good store and a well-informed, honest owner.
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Even before these trying times (Covid, staffing, etc.) I always called ahead of any dealer (hi-fi, car, whatever) and even if I wasn't planning on making a purchase that day, it helped paved the way for me to be taken seriously. Yeah, sure, I did my share of drop into the store things when I was young, but the market has changed dramatically. These are not chain drug stores or supermarkets with promised hours.
There may be other reasons why I find a dealer less than ideal, but this isn't one of them. At this point, having moved to what I consider to be a pretty bare audio retail market, I can't even tell you the last time I was in an audio store. |
@millercarbon No knowledgeable salesmen would recommend Raven or Tekton because their after sale service stinks. Just read the reviews in this vey forum. Yep real charmers they are, snake charmers. decent knowledgeable, enthusiastic salesman" would recommend Tekton, Raven |
The writing's on the wall for the bricks and mortar guys.
Look at it from their point of view. You go into the store, spend three hours chatting and listening to equipment. The he lends you a couple of pieces you like the sound of to try in your system. You go back after two weeks saying 'thanks but they're not quite what I'm looking for'.
Then you go and buy them from a warehouse on the net or a grey importer at a 15% discount to the MRP.
Sure, you would never do this. But plenty do.
Sorry. The world's changed and it ain't going back. No future for them. For most people it's every man for himself and a buck's a buck.
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Back in the day, ie. late 1970's I found I could mail order camera gear from NYC for a 30% discount vs my local camera stores. So I would go into the stores and make a cash offer for gear somewhere between MSRP and NYC prices. Sometimes a deal was struck and sometimes I got kicked out of the store. Yes, a few grouchy store owners would be offended at an offer below their advertised price. I wondered even then how stores would stay in business if they cannot compete with the high volume mail order business.
For me the answer was service before and after the sale and product availability. A few decades ago I had no patience for stores (Cars, Stereos, appliances, etc) that carried little to no inventory but wanted MSRP. These same places had disingenuous sales people with little to no product knowledge who trashed any brand that was not in their store. Today I'm happy to see stores that have found a way to compete with mail order that offer great service, product knowledge and a reasonable if not surprisingly large inventory as well. One great audio store is in Atlanta and I will buy from them every chance I get regardless of the two hour drive. I typically have done my research and am either ready to buy or need to down select one more time before buying only to be "sales'd on or ignored". So I feel for those who have had that experience as well. And that goes for anything, not just audio gear.
Isn't there an old adage that a sales person has to visit 10 homes to make one sale? I'm sure that holds true for walk in customers as well. |
It may be every man for himself when it comes to purchases but we're all in it together when it comes to the broader world of stereos. This forum is an extreme outlier when it comes to commitment, experience, and budgets. Folks here are comfortable spending thousands of dollars on equipment they've never seen or heard because they know how to research, know where to get trusted recommendations, and know they can resell anything after a few months of listening.
Out there in the real world, few people will take that route. What sane person who has little experience would spend $5,000+ on speakers without hearing them? The esoteric high end may not be too affected but, without stores, the mid- and upper- ranges will continue to shrink. It's not a pretty vision. |
I get that alot of people miss the social aspects of going to a hifi shop. Going in just to browse evolved into a particular kind of customer dropping in to talk about their own systems. They were looking for a “clubhouse”. Sometimes amazing, sometimes cobbled together, always a time suck.
Some stores have tried to “schedule” the massive time suck people at the same time by having a “cars and coffee” style time window weekly. Brooks Berdan used to do these kinds of “events” on Saturday mornings. Lots of DIY types trying to talk about their latest project, why it was better than anything Dave Wilson could construct and then off to unload the shyte out of their cars they had picked up at garage sales and swap meets earlier that morning. Its a generational thing. Heaven help you if you werent in to that vibe and wanted to just shop on a Saturday morning!
When seriously shopping, I have always made appointments. Its convenient, the gear I want to hear will be set up, warmed up and ready to go. Both my time and the dealer’s time is respected. Most importantly, I don’t have to verbalize my hifi resume to some slapdyck following me around the shop (and I’m not talking about the proprietor, I’m talking about the guy who has been constructing a set of speakers for 2 years in his garage).
I also find it quite ironic that some here talk about carrying wads of cash in their pocket as some kind of qualifier as to why they should receive some kind of perceived treatment. That’s a walking inferiority complex with a chip on his or her shoulder walking in to a store. No thanks.
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@millercarbon
I will put into context for you, not that I think it will matter - I never understand your "logic".
"no amount of reading" for the not crazy wealthy, crazy nerdy, crazy expert level audiophile. Have you tried to learn to swim from a book? You need water more the description.
You need to LISTEN and not just READ to begin somewhere. Words can never describe sound faithfully, and without a lot of money you can't have an intermediate system in your living room, magically that will work and be a good reference. You need to COMPARE, that where a store is vital. |
and without a lot of money you can’t have an intermediate system in your living room, magically that will work and be a good reference. You need to COMPARE, that where a store is vital. A good few bucks system used or legendary vintage is not becoming "trash" suddenly compared to costly higher one today... And the magic at which you point exist, i call that ACOUSTIC... It may cost NOTHING..... I know i made my room treatment and control myself... I did not need to compare my system to any other to know if timbre of a choral piece or an opera fill my room with naturalness and 3-d holographic volume... I need to compare only if i want a bit more for a very big load of money yes....What all people name an upgrade.... if you want to learn how to "swim" in audio, you can read reviews or compare yes, but like you say to learn to swim we need "water" and in audio water is acoustic....Not marketing electronical design articles or reviews or audio show gear comparison in bad room ....Acoustic and psycho-acoustic science and experiments... |
There are a few shops still in the Chicago area that I stop at occasionally. Nice guys who will talk with you if they can. If very busy, you won't get the usual banter. But that's fine. I see what they have plugged in and may listen a little. I am very aware not to waste their time. I have purchased a few things from them.
There are a few other 'higher-end' shops that I just don't go to anymore. Back in the day when I was just getting started I did go and listen to expensive systems. I would say up front that I wasn't interested in purchasing at the time. Everyone was pretty cool about it. But now I realize that I really would just be wasting their time.
I personally don't see the big deal with appointments. I would love to sit and listen to new gear without any distractions! If you have deep pockets have at it. Just be clear upfront what your intentions are. Or, if the thought of having to make an appointment gets your panties in a bunch, just don't do it. Pretty simple really - shop elsewhere.
The times they are a-changing. Roll with it. |
jaxwired
Where are you located? You can PM me if not wanting to post here.The owner is a poor Businessman not seeing the potential Customers.I tend to agree that Appointment only is not a good model. Audiophiles want to drop by, listen/look over all of the gear. Pass on to a better dealer/retailer.No sympathy here if he goes under.
Happy Listening!
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Not too many successful dealers would shed a tear if the 50-100 frequent posters on Audiogon chose to take their business elsewhere. |
Everything has changed. I loved going into a store to hear good hi-fi. Not easy to do anymore. I like the suggestion we share our knowledge. I know exactly how my last four amps and speakers sounded together and the DAC I liked best, etc.. Maybe that is the future of decent audio. Talking about it. Look at the audiophiliac , he is good and very entertaining. I will try and share more in the future on how a piece of gear sounds or works. I like hearing what others say about their gear a lot. It helps! |
@northman
You are right that stores are the main way we get to audition equipment before purchase. True some manufacturers sell direct and will ship on sale or return. But you pay return shipping and with a large speaker this doesn''t work well as there is a push to keep the piece because of the cost of sending it back.
I entirely agree with you on your second point too. I always insist on a lengthy home audition in my room and my system. But from posts here there are plenty who go out and buy expensive gear on the say-so of other members, many of whom are being paid fees for recommendations.
Ho hum, we can't help everyone.
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the bottom line is: many brands won't survive without retail stores and retail stores won't survive without the help of those brands. Mainly the small ones that spend their balance on the quality of the equipment and research with nothing left for online marketing.
Retail stores and those brands could pool their resources - if they don't already
A sidenote:
There are brands that use despicable marketing and I think audiogon is the place to name them so that we are warned |
I understand that some dealers require appointments. If that is the case, maybe they should place signage that says appointments only. Or hours where appointment are only accepted and walk ins other times.
Setting up rooms for tire kickers takes time and 9 times out of ten these days, people go into brick and mortar stores to demo equipment, try clothes on and then go on the internet and purchase.
I for one like and appreciate brick and mortar stores.
Back before he retired, Steve from Stereo Design had no problem at all allowing me to go the stupidly expensive sound room and play whatever I wanted. Whether or not I bought anything. He knew I loved driving down to San Diego and just hanging. His used equipment room was heaven. He would let me take equipment home to demo in my home because He knew that if I really liked it, I would probably purchase it. I miss Stereo Design.
Randy at Optimal Enchantment was the same. I would call and he would say, come on over. He only had one room. But, he would demo what ever I wanted and just play the music and not say a word. He knew.
I never pay for bad service. people that look me up and down or that can't be bothered to answer basic questions or worst, lie outright, I have no time for. Except for racist, bigots, etc. the days of the Pretty Woman scenario are well in the past. These day, dealers have absolutely no idea who is walking into their store. That person could very well want the best and is willing to pay for it. So keep that racist, bigoted, stupid attitude behind a locked door please.
I have walked into stores and requested that certain speakers or amps or pre-amps be connected and played. If they are sitting in the room not connected. There should be no problem hooking them up. otherwise, why are they in the room?
I also shouldn't have to play 20 questions with the salesperson. However, I do understand the need to get to know the customer vs tire kickers.
It is to me the attitude of the dealer/sales person.
enjoy |
Long ago margins in high end audio were high. Also, the purchase cycle was long. Cultivating a customer now would net you sales in a few years. It was how you built a good business. Inspire a person today and they will buy some day when they have money.
Today, high end dealers must cull out people that will listen at their shop and buy on the internet. It is honestly pretty disingenuous to do this, they have a business to run. People that can afford to buy want, what a dealer can provide a stressless purchasing experience. When I received a unit which had a meter that didn’t work, my dealer came over to my house, gave me his demo, ordered a new one, delivered and installed it, without me lifting a finger. For over $20K… I don’t care if I save a couple grand… I don’t want the hassle… I am retired.. I want to enjoy life… not wrestle 150 lb amps into boxes and call shipping companies and not have a working system for weeks. So, I am completely on the side of the dealer in getting disingenuous buyers out of the store.
I am the kind of customer that high end audio dealers want. They are the kind of guys I want… someone that can intelligently discuss and and help me choose the very best equipment for my tastes and makes sure there is never a glitch in the process. Dealers that get that… will survive and thrive. |
