New turntable: TW or Obama?

You might want to rethink that headline...

You are much better off with the Kuzma Pair, not as fancy looking but the 4 Point is a better arm and the R has an adequate record clamping system. It is also a very flexible table. Both would need to be placed on a MinusK platform for adequate isolation. 
Just to throw another stone in the water. Why not look at a Sota Cosmos Vacuum? It has a fine built is suspension, a magnetic thrust bearing, a better motor and control system, the best record clamping and a lovely isolated dust cover. It is not as flexible as either of the other tables and is limited to certain 9 and 10 inch tone arms. The Kuzma 4 point 9 ( many believe it is the best 4 Point), the Schroder CB, the Reed 2G, all the Origin Live arms and some others will fit. All for under 20K. The only turntable I like better is the Dohmann Helix. What it is hard to get across is that mass does not provide adequate isolation. Place your stylus down in the run out groove with the turntable off and turn up the volume. What you hear is called room rumble. You can also watch your woofers bounce. With a turntable that is adequately suspended you will get hardly any of this. You might pick up air currents in the room. Blow gently on the tonearm and watch what happens. Darn sensitive vibration measuring device!
I also think after using the Sota you will be disappointed in the others after a while. The Sota is a joy to use. You can put your hand down on it to cue a record. You can hit the plinth with a hammer and won't hear it at all through the system. Try that with the others. they do not have isolated hinged dustcovers that you can easily use during play not only protecting your records but making records sound better! It is hearing protection for your cartridge. So much for popular dogma.

Also, The Kuzmas to get for a 4 Point are the Ref 2 and the M.

The Kuzma stabi M does have an isolated, hinged cover. I'm impressed enough with the Kuzma 4 point 11 that I'm now considering a stabi turntable too. Just a brilliant arm. 

FWIW: Obama is the Chopstick capital of Japan.

Consider an SME turntable for your excellent Series 5 arm.

Geez, I’m not the brightest bulb often....

Thread title and "Obama is the Chopstick capital of Japan."

This is a double jeopardy knowledge association...huh?

Had a Sota Cosmos upgraded to TW AC3 much better bass detail and impact better midrange detail and much better highs.Using TW 10.5 arm with top Transfiguration cartridge,Enjoy!

Went through this decision last year and was almost unanimously encouraged  by Audiogon members to refurbish my SOTA Star/SME V combo, so that's what I did (it's nearly ready).  However, I was looking at a replacement price range well under the gear you're considering. 

We have probably both gotten used to the low noise floor of the SOTA.  I figured "you don't know what you got 'til it's gone," so I kept the rig.  I see another poster has expressed the same sentiment re: the virtues of the SOTA/SME V. 

Thanks for starting this thread.  I'll be watching, but I can't give you any input on these tables and arms, and I'm not trying to sway you one way or the other.  Just thought my very similar experience might be of interest.

Specifics of the $3k+ renewal (I wasn't interested in packing and shipping everything to SOTA, so I took the TT to my local high end shop where I bought the table long ago):

• new TT bearing and springs (motor is still good - who knows how long?)
• sent SME V to Alfred Kayser in Canada for disassembly, cleaning and new bearings, as well as new internal wiring - continuous length from cart to preamp
  
• new Audio-Technica ART9XA cart (had to switch out preamp's internal MC resistors to get more gain for .2mv output)
  

good moves @keegiam it should be fantastic 

@tomic601  thanks, hope so - great guidance from AG members, learned a lot

Not that my 2cents will make any difference but have heard several of the mentioned Kuzma's with the different 4Point arms and every time the sound was intoxicating. Either the M or R with a 4Point will be my next table. 

It depends. Obama was born in 61, so you might want to consider age as a factor.

The TW Arm is brilliant. Simple, elegant, competently engineered. The TW table is also nice--I spent many hours listening to a friends TOTL Raven with the 10.5 arm. If you are at all interested in a different drive system, check out the Sempersonus TE-2. I'm using a 12" TW arm with this table and it really sings. The TE-2 uses an inner rim drive system that is fantastic--quiet, stable, reliable. The combination has the drive and PRaT of an idler with the detail retrieval of a great belt drive like the Raven. 

@bobbydd,

I will say what others besides myself may be thinking about your post.   What are you trying to pull with the title?

Guys, my apologies on the title.  A victim of my smart device's auto check.  I proof read my post but forgot to check the title.

But maybe I'm getting more left wing feedback and interest so it's all good ....

:)

Both tables look great ones . I’m partial to the wood. These days I care about looks than I used to.

I’ve heard both Raven & Kuzma.
They are both great- however I prefer the Kuzma by some margin - the 4point11 arm is a superb arm, transparent and very quick.Set up and on the fly VTA on the Kuzma is super easy due to the great design.
I think the Kuzma combo will be a bigger upgrade over the Sota than the Raven - I use to own a Sota Star and know it well.

I'm pretty old, but wasn't it obvious the title was a typo?  Sheesh.

I like the Pro-ject turntable line. 

Are you putting the Sota on the market? 😉

@bobbydd 
  Are you sure you want leftwing opinion? Most I've seen would have you loot anything shiny off your system, then burn the rest of it to the ground......oh don't forget to flip over your car and set the trash can on fire on your way out.🙄

Guys please don't take anything I post politically.  All tongue in cheek on my part as evidently some here took the original title seriously.

Back to the tables.

My SOTA/SME is 30 years old, Brazilian rosewood.  Bought it new and not going anywhere.

More a matter that, at age 55 and a vinyl guy, I'm ready for a different high quality addition I can enjoy, hopefully, for another 30 years.

I also hope that the new table will sound even better, hence the purpose of this thread.

 

Guys, my apologies on the title....But maybe I'm getting more left wing feedback and interest so it's all good .... Guys please don't take anything I post politically.

Huh? I think most people just overlooked the header. I did. But what are we to make of the 2nd statement? I took it in the same manner as roadwhorerecords above. But I'm just silly enough to believe words have meanings.

I always forget that audiophiles span the political spectrum, as road******'s post reminds me.

Things are getting too political here for me.  Lighten up and enjoy the music.  Cya.

Have you looked at the Acoustic Solid Royal Turntable it is in your price range at $16k or some of the Transrotor turntables.

*hmm*  I don't approve of torching anyones' system, nor their neighborhoods.....but then, Changes are seldom merely annoying.

...and the bigger ones are always....difficult....

And I'd be secretly pleased to use a pair of Obama chopsticks.  😏

Good listening with the new TT, whichever 'side' you go with....;)

Since mijostyn mentions the Ref 2...I figured I'd chime in and say I love mine. I use the Ref 313 VTA. My guess is the Stabi R and M both outsell the Ref 2 by a pretty wide margin. Perhaps it's due to the Ref being in production so long, and/or many wanting a non-suspended table. I was speaking to a close confidant today and mentioning I want to ad a budget oriented table. He said there's nothing that can outperform a Pipe Bomb with it's standard Unipivot arm for the money. 

@bobbydd
From a performance point of view, i.e. extracting infomration from the vinyl, the Kuzma 4point + nig Kuzma would do the job.
This said, there mey be other factors influencing your purchase decision.

I also hope that the new table will sound even better, hence the purpose of this thread.

 Both the Kuzma-4point & the TW combo will outperform your SOTA /sme5.
BTW, that SOTA (/sme5) is excellent in & of itself: have you considered changing the sme5 with something different?

You are close enough to the price of the Onkk Cue, have you considered it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHmzbkWZXPQ

The pro-ject classic is a terrific value in a turntable, especially the sb model or evo. Read Fremer's review on it, it sounds great out of the box and looks good too. Upgrade the cartridge and it is outstanding. 

As a user of an SME V, I would advise keeping it and finding a suitable turntable to partner it with. SME is now under new ownership and prices have risen alarmingly. In addition they only supply arms with their own turntables i.e.arms are not available as a stand alone purchase. A few dealers carry "old" stock that they have priced accordingly on eBay. If you decide to change arms you should be able to get good money for your SME V.

With your title I will assume that the tt you are referring to is half black have white, comes with a barry cartridge, does not work and cost a lot of money!!

 I'll bet you never thought this area would be a snarling snakepit of political opinion. Things have gotten much more touchy after everything except sunspots or the lack of them have been politicized. Good luck with whatever it was you were asking about today. Remember, it isn't the same world as when you went to sleep before Covid.

SOTA Cosmos/Kuzma 4 pt/Clearaudio Jubilee MC=ECSTASY

@jaym759 

I would agree a new Cosmos would be great, but the Kuzma 4point11 I suspect might be too heavy for the sprung chassis. The 4Point11 in my view is much better than the 4point9 and thats why I recommended the Kuzma TT with the 4Point11.

Do you have a Cosmos/Kuzma ??

dover1: I do have a cosmos/kuzma 4pt9...you are right that the kuzma4pt/11 is likely too heavy for the sprung chassis...but the 4pt9 seems ideal for my setup 

So, what's the problem? Why is anyone so triggered seeing "obama's" name being used! Whether it's a typo or not, get a grip!

Keep the arm - hard to better it.

Upgrade the table to current model - costs a few thou but have heard very good things about it.

I have a series 1 Cosmos with the same arm on it and have been toying with an upgrade (only problem is that it is in my second system so not sure that's the place to be spending money).

Any TT that is just under $20,000?   It should be beyond reproach.  To say otherwise is a disgrace. 

Anyone needing advice on such a TT should not be buying such a thing if he can really hear and can actually enjoy what he hears.  Otherwise... he is just status bragging. Its no longer about the music.   Its all about what holds the highest status. 

This has made me interested in opinions comparing the Kuzma Stabi R and the "ancient" SOTA Star Sapphire.

Does anyone here have the listening experience to weigh in on that?  If so, how did you get there?

All I can say is, when I put a record on the SOTA Star, give the vacuum a few seconds and thunk the label with my thumb, the solidity always makes me smile.  The resulting silent, black background is a true joy.  Suspension TT's, baby.  That's the key IMHO.  If the Kuzma is clearly better, go for it.