My pet peeve: "revealing" speakers

@mahgister- The article does mention clean (I’d add ample) AC and vibration control, which, "aided" the author in obtaining greater system resolution.    Though I’ve always considered both those and room acoustics (per Sabin, etc) primary, far as setting up either a live venue, or home listening room; I’ve never heard the term, "embedding" applied.      Does make sense.      It’s been my experience; only after those are correctly addressed/implemented, can most truly appreciate the improvements (ie: resolved/revealed microdynamics) so many of the oft-argued about components or, "tweaks" offer.        Happy listening!

Yes, it happens! Very revealing! Did I get it right?


I can understand why this bugs Eric.   It's not as simple as it seems.

PEople make things much harder and more complicated than they often need be.

In reality in serious matters people always simplify or try to simplify a very much complex interaction impossible to understand completely....

In trivial matters people always complicate the situation tough....

Audio is a complex and serious matter....Discussion about audio are often more trivial tough....


:)

"Revealing" is for me what a good audio system reveals from itself, through the room acoustic, through the noise floor level, and through mechanical influences....

"Resolving" is more linked to the source recording and his translation by the embedded audio system.....

Then an audio system reveal something of itself, of the room and of the house, through his resolving power "working" in his own way to be true to the recording source....

There is always a balance between the revealing and the resolving peower.... No speakers can resolve "per se" in the absolute without revealing some intrinsic limitations of his own design and at the same time extrinsic one linked to the gear, room, house etc...

This is why i speak about a "living" sound, between an " ideal" neutral and a "bad" coloration.... Neutral is not always good, and coloration not always bad, when you inhabit specific conditions....

There is a trade-off between generic design and specific conditions.....

My point is good luck with both. PEople make things much harder and more complicated than they often need be. But it does make for an interesting discussion.  Is "revealing" really so controversial?    That is revealing.  :-)

And the Inuit people have some 80+ varied descriptors for ’snow’.

Your point?

The most revealing thing is how many definitions of revealing audiophiles have. 

djones51 - I'll take a pair of Dutch and Dutch 8c in white/white.
What an unusual port, they do look pretty, no doubt about it.

I worry that many times these claims of having less loss, actually mean "more treble" or "distinct treble."

Of all the speakers I’ve read about the ones I would like to listen to are the Dutch and Dutch 8c. Not sure if they are " revealing " but they have been touted as neutral. If revealing is colored then not for me I want as flat a FR and neutral as possible. The Harman curve suits me just fine.

mahgister - the voicing of the speaker for a particular sized environment is also a form of embedding, even without room treatment. It’s not just the measurement of the frequency response coming out of the loudspeaker, it’s an understanding of a good average fit for a general room size for the loudspeaker.

For sure you are right rick....This come with the "generic" final design of the speakers....

The room, the electronics, the recording, is very much more pronounced and unveiled, by a highly resolving loudspeaker (whatever type it is) and it can be more or less flattering or very much not so.

This is my experience....

But my system being good is not at the highest design top quality in the market....Like most of us....

My sound is"living" in this interval between the highest resolution and some coloration coming from all the parts and even from my room...I lives well with this imperfection, and i call that "living" sound....This is the most many of us can wait for with their actual audio system....Totally resolving system in a perfect room is out of the purse of most....It is a theoretical concept rarely manifested  with an audio system...In real life we listen to "living" sound, never perfectly resolving one...And in any normal audio system, we listen to some aspect of a recording slightly more than to some other aspects... There is a slight unbalance like in real life... Except for very high end speakers in a designed room, with a low noise floor level and no mechanical  vibrations uncontrolled... 

In my many experiments in listenings what i listened to was this INTERLINK between the recording, the electronics, the electrical grid, the mechanical grid, and the acoustic of my room...In my experiments in listenings  i play with device that will improve this interlink.... We cannot change the quality of the basic electronic  we own.... Only make it able to reach his potential....

No embedding will gives to someone the sound quality of a top level component with a low level one....

But The embedding of an audio system rightfully done gives more sometimes than most of the so called upgrade....

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/tas/261/editorial.htm

Short article but right for me....Thanks rodman....
I never own a system so resolving tough, even rightly embed....

There exist a scale of hi-fi quality for sure....

My system tough gives me a hint of what he described, then it must be rightfully embed indeed:

« In fact, higher resolution renders greater tonal saturation, warmth, and instrumental body by virtue of revealing the timbral micro-structure, which only contributes to a sense of realism and life. Instrumental textures simply sound more like the real thing when the system accurately portrays the instrument's harmonic and dynamic structure in all its finely textured glory. Unfortunately, it's these low-level signal components that are the most fragile and easiest to lose. Resolution is shaved off in every stage of the chain, from tonearm resonances, to electronics, to the mechanical structures in transducers. »

To the mechanical embedding he speak about, i will add the electrical embedding and the powerful acoustical one....

 

newbee -

IMO the easiest way to get ’revealing’ components, including speakers, is to reduce output in the lower mid range which effectively reveals more information in the mid range, or in many instances increasing the output in the upper mid range/lower highs which gives the appearance of better, more extended highs. Both of these can create a sense of increased soundstage, especially depth of image.

mahgister -

I want speakers that gives me the impression of a musical sound living presence, timbre+imaging...And "living" is not colored, nor neutral, it is a living interval between these 2....

dazzlingmd -

My current speakers are far more revealing and unforgiving, to where Gaucho sounds fantastic (better than through my old speakers) and All the World’s a Stage sounds dramatically worse in comparison. The speakers are better at revealing recording/mixing/pressing flaws, which is a double-edged sword, as it showcases the greatness of great recordings but also the issues with poor ones.
I’m not sure how reviewers use the term, but that’s how I’ve understood it.

As an employee for a very focused bespoke loudspeaker manufacturer (who’s actually not particularly wealthy, or high profile other than in his local circles) I know well a story of my employer who was approached by Australia’s Federal Government to build them a pair of speakers.

He delivered the pair of commissioned speakers, and a panel of reviewers reported back, the Sonus Faber Guarneri Homage were the only speakers at the time that could touch them (yes it was some years ago). Yes it could be argued that the Sonus Fabers were off the shelf, and my boss’s speakers were built to best whatever they could, and wasn’t a stock sale item. Like comparing a sports car to a street car someone has heavily modified, tuned for a specific task.

After reading the reports that the Sonus Fabers had something in the sound they projected that made them just sound right, my employer flew down to Canberra, borrowed the Guarneri Homages and listened, and changed his crossover, and listened again, and tweaked throughout the weekend.
He probably didn’t get much sleep, and was in a hotel room, so probably didn’t make friends with the rooms beside him either.

newbee - you’re clever, so anyway, he could hear the interaction with the room gain, and after working out what he was hearing, he called the tuning he uses PRC. He had learnt something from the Italian designer about room gain, and what is does to the overall sound.
mahgister - the voicing of the speaker for a particular sized environment is also a form of embedding, even without room treatment. It’s not just the measurement of the frequency response coming out of the loudspeaker, it’s an understanding of a good average fit for a general room size for the loudspeaker.

dazzlingmd - absolutely bang on. A truly revealing loudspeaker, or an unveiled loudspeaker will with a high degree of fidelity, does resolve what is being fed into it. Correctly designed there will be no restrictive points in delivering the appropriate frequencies and levels of energy to whatever electro mechanical device actually voices the reproduced music.

It is indeed a two edged sword, on a well toned, fit woman a catsuit looks astonishing, a catsuit is much less flattering on someone very much out of shape, where a less revealing outfit is far more flattering. The room, the electronics, the recording, is very much more pronounced and unveiled, by a highly resolving loudspeaker (whatever type it is) and it can be more or less flattering or very much not so.

As for what measurements matter, consideration to how all of the above interact with each other, that’s a lot of measurements that all matter simultaneously.

Yes, you can all consider me an opinionated geezer, I just seem to share a lot of opinions of others in here :-P

I learn a lot in here too.

There seem to be two extremes w.r.t room interactions.
One extreme would be the Bose "direct/reflecting" strategy, which deliberately exploits room interactions.  Another is the magneplanar/electrostatic strategy, which typically aims for a more focused sound that minimizes room interactions. 

Yet, a very nearly flat frequency response curve (with relative absence of room colorations) doesn't necessarily tell us much about how well the speakers reveal subtle details, nor about how well they respond in the time domain.  My Totem speakers, as measured using REW, show a fairly impressive frequency response.  Yet when I apply various filters using HQ Player, I hear little if any difference.  Could be my ears, of course ... or perhaps my gear isn't sufficiently "revealing".  

At any rate, I'd expect a "revealing" system to make subtle details audible at normal listening levels, in addition to having a nearly flat frequency response, with little blurring/smearing due to phase and timing issues.

So, instruments and vocals sound natural and realistic;
the soundstage/image is believable;
subtle details are neither masked nor exaggerated.
Still, a system can sound quite good even if isn't very "revealing" in all these respects.  

Anything with moving mass tends to be the hardest, or most difficult, to remove waveform tracing distortions (in said motional mass) from.

Systems that move about or translate and/or modify this thing called ’electricity’, can be easier to deal with, but that depends upon the given designers of of said systems -whether they understand the actual nature of electricity or not. Very few understand it. Most can cite the textbooks and manipulate formulae, but understanding the nature of electricity or electron flow or atomic function as related to this 'electricity' thing? Almost zero.

Or, that surface views won't give one an in-depth view, so as to be able to go after in-depth problems.

The whole thing becomes circular and redundant. Where inches of minor change are touted as miles and heights.

In no way do I intend this to be an exercise in semantic gymnastics, but- I’ve often used the terms, "resolving" and, "revealing" interchangeably.      ie: A really, "resolving" speaker will be found, "revealing" of whatever is correct or incorrect, in the system before it (sources/media, components, cables, etc).      This article (notwithstanding opinions on Robert Harley, Martin-Logan, Constellation, TAS, the term, "Hi-Fi, etc) exactly describes how I’ve viewed the subject, since 1964: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/tas/261/editorial.htm

1.  Your ROOM is the most important element of any sound system.
2.  If you want to HEAR your components, have your dealer install (CORRECTLY) the most expensive Magnepans you can afford.
3.  If they did it properly, you will now hear your components and the recording as it was made.

If you like what you hear, so be it.  If not, time to start replacing your components or fixing your room.

Cheers!

'reveal' is a transitive verb.
This speaker is revealing......what?

Unless what is revealed is specified, the use of the term 'revealing' is meaningless.  So please stop.

In the main there are only three groups of phenomena that might be revealed:
1.   The signal on the recording.
2.   The artifacts of the system.
3.   (very minor and just to be complete) the external artifacts that millercarbon tells you to spend so much money eliminating.

So let's always be specific.

p05129112 posts08-22-2020 7:04pm

Excuse millercarbon, he gets paid by how many threads/posts he can answer/start about Tekton speakers.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Look I been on the take for years, now if I could just get paid for it..
I’m a major advocate, of speakers that haven’t been made for almost 9 years. Talk about revealing. I’m nuts... I almost bought a 40 year old pair of dipoles. RARE! I still might. First time I’ve ever seen a pair for sale.

That’s telling me. People just don’t sell them, WHY? They must be so revealing, that’s all I can figure... 15 years of looking, 1 pair.

Ok, ok, maybe not political enough, I’ll try to stay on topic. OP

Them speakers are better than those speakers, how am I doing?
Because those are on the LEFT, and those are on the RIGHT. BUT I’m slightly right of center.

That’s revealing. Oh, to much. OK, you can stop reading right after "posts" the second time. Just sayin’ :-)

It’s Saturday night, still 88 degrees and to hot to play the stereo.

What else am I gonna do?

Regards

Some of you seem to be reading material differently than I do. Revealing done right should be a positive, not sure where some get the idea it’s a bad thing. There are other words that are, and should be used when it’s meant as a negative. 

Revealing could also mean high resolution.

Which IMO is a desired characteristic of a great system.

Revealing is an oft used audio term that means about nothing in actual sound attributes.  Often it is applied to things that sound awful but are expensive.

For me, the term "revealing," as far as audio goes, means a complete lack of coloration/distortion, and a clinical sound. In other words, what’s on the source is what you hear ... not necessarily a good thing given various recording and mastering techniques, etc.

I just spent the better part of the day listening to a very......revealing speaker. Thanks for the word assist as I was somewhat at a loss to describe it. 

As for your feelings about the word, revealing....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wujVMIYzYXg

All the best,
Nonoise

Review speak:

Revealing = you will need ear plugs
Ruthlessly revealing = you will need ear plugs and Advil
Needs careful system matching = you will need ear plugs, Advil, a tube amp, and a glass of Scotch

+1 @dazzlingmd

For example: B&W has a certain sound that shows up in all of their speakers except for their top of the line.

How do you know that? 

Much ado about nothing, really, no, really.

Excuse millercarbon, he gets paid by how many threads/posts he can answer/start about Tekton speakers. Tekton are anything but revealing. They have a mediocre tweeter as their tweeter and midrange drivers.

Everybody has a preference of what speaker sound they like. I like to say that each speaker manufacturer has their own type of sound and if you like their cheaper models, you will probably love their reference speakers. For example: B&W has a certain sound that shows up in all of their speakers except for their top of the line. Same goes for Focal, Totem, Revel, Raidho, and many others.

Perhaps fluorescent conveys the feeling, Erik.  Some systems are like a room lit by fluorescent tubes.  You can really spot things, but it isn't natural or nourishing--it's why you don't light a church sanctuary with fluorescent lights.

I have a Chauncey Gardener relationship to sound-- like to listen...or not.  Part of what I like to listen to is the poetry of the lyrics, so the system has to reveal the words and how they are expressed without going fluorescent. A clearly heard whisper in candlelight

Based on this discussion, I think I’ve been using (and reading in reviews) the term “revealing” very differently than others.  
I’ve had speakers in my system that were more “forgiving” in my view, and less “revealing” to me, in that a meticulously recorded album (e.g. Steely Dan Gaucho), compared to a poor recording (e.g. Rush All the World’s a Stage), would sound better, but not dramatically better.  

My current speakers are far more revealing and unforgiving, to where Gaucho sounds fantastic (better than through my old speakers) and All the World’s a Stage sounds dramatically worse in comparison.  The speakers are better at revealing recording/mixing/pressing flaws, which is a double-edged sword, as it showcases the greatness of great recordings but also the issues with poor ones.  
I’m not sure how reviewers use the term, but that’s how I’ve understood it.  

I have a new saying. If you wear a helmet when you go out buy speakers based on their measurements, otherwise buy what sounds good to you. 

The "generic" sound of speakers out of a "specific" room makes no more sense to me...

For sure Tannoy dual gold and Magneplanar for example has a sound of their own very different of one another.... Are they revealing? Yes if they are specifically embed rightfully.... Will they reveal the same thing? No not at all...

I want speakers that gives me the impression of a musical sound living presence, timbre+imaging...And "living" is not colored, nor neutral, it is a living interval between these 2....

"Revealing" remind me of the quality linked to microscope...

Music is first about a perceived wholeness not about micro details first or foremost....

To me the term "revealing" for a component simply means that 90% of the stuff played through it sounds ugly.

Hint neutral to source starts with being AT the original acoustic event in reverberant space. Pick your first microphone and the original event is gone. Kinda cracks me up people using multitrack studio stuff to pick flavors they like, but maybe that’s 2 far off track - pardon the pun....

want imaginary detail and fret noise, give me three minutes to change..., the microphone 

Heavy, for some revealing might be as simple as putting new batteries in the hearing aids. 

Wow, kenjit actually wrote a sentence that made sense, too bad he ruined it with the second one. Eric, unless they’re misusing the term, revealing is not coloration. Stereo, so then you agree he’s a legend? Lol.

Eric that is a very generalized assertion.

Sir, this is a political debate.  If you want specifics you should go to a car dealership.

My Grandmother would say MC is haughty. BUT, she would say it in a very kind and understanding way. I’m learning... Even about stereo gear. :-)

Revealing, NO idea, what it means. I guess I'll be learning.

Thanks and

Regards

@millercarbon.             


 'When you realize how right I am let me know. I got ways to remove so many veils you'll need a 20 yard dumpster to haul them all away by the time we're done.                   '


Oh brother, give me a break.  You are a legend only in your own mind.

Eric that is a very generalized assertion.

There is nothing wrong with coloration if it enables you to hear more details in the recording. As long as the speaker gives you more enjoyment it doesn't matter what coloration there is or what frequency response it has or what crossover circuit it uses. 
It also doesn't matter what words you use to describe what you hear. Some people call it revealing others call it coloration. The fact of the matter is Erik, unless you can prove to me precisely which measurements are important and why when it comes to perceived sound quality, you are just going round in circles. 

eric-squires, you're right, you didn't bring up manufacturer's claims, my bad. I have gone out with professional reviews in hand years ago to make a purchase only to be disappointed after bringing them home and doing close listening tests. But I'm sure that some reviewers are accurate especially if if most people agree with them.

I don’t know if we need to change the word revealing. Maybe some reviewers are just misusing the word to describe something else? 

why would anyone buy a pair of speakers solely based on the manufacturers claim that they are revealing?

@phd 

I certainly never brought up manufacturer's claims. I was talking about reviewers, both professional and amateur.

It could be that the word revealing is over-used and is not the end game.

I think so.

Good speakers are a major investment so why would anyone buy a pair of speakers solely based on the manufacturers claim that they are revealing? Certainly there is more that contribute to a speaker's overall sound. It could be that the word revealing is over-used and is not the end game.

In addition who would buy speakers without hearing them first hand in your own listening room? This comes down to using your ears which are the best instruments for evaluating any component.

@newbee :

That's definitely a very popular method, and honestly this is a great solution for listening at low volumes.  The current line of Dali and some Dynaudio go this route.  Some create this by having a low impedance in the same area you described.

The other way is more subtle, to introduce peaks and valleys in the tweeter.

I'm not criticizing these speakers per se, buy what you like.

Best,

E

Mozartfan, Please take a moment if you will and describe for us exactly how you would find a speaker truly neutral to the source? What would you recommend others do to that same end?