The one word that bugs me the most in all of the audiophile world is "revealing."
It's plenty descriptive but it's also biased. What I mean is that speakers that are revealing are also usually quite colored. They don't unveil a recording, they focus your attention by suppressing some tones and enhancing others.
The reviewer who suddenly discovers hearing things he has never heard
before and now goes through his entire library has fallen for this trap
hook line and sinker.
This is not always true, as some speakers are revealing by ignoring the room. They can remain tonally neutral but give you a headphone like experience. I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about the others. I wish we had a better word for it.
Mind you, I believe you should buy speakers based on your personal preferences. Revealing, warm, neutral, whatever. I'm just saying this word is deceptive, as if there were no down side when there is.
As I've posted in many other threads, recording engineers, equipment, speakers, all are so different, and trendy, the idea of getting perfectly accurate reproduction is impossible. The best we can do is pick a sound which bowls down the middle of the lane more often than not, get good sounding tone controls and go with what we have.
For me, that tends to be following neutral B&K speaker curves (on axis). I find I can listen to a wide variety of music enjoyably that way, but it may not be for others.
Interesting thread. I'm 70 and read almost everything printed about the high end since the '70s, but I don't have a fancy rig. This thread has actually changed my goals from assembling "revealing" equipment to "sounds right to me" equipment, which I didn't expect. I say that because I've finally gotten it through my head that no specific combination equipment can ever deliver the absolute sound. There are an infinite number of variable in the individual installations and an infinite number of variables in what people want to hear. The simple answer is eliminate the variables in what people want to hear down to what YOU want to hear and the variables in installation down to YOUR installation and the process becomes manageable. As a person who searches for "the truth," that's a disappointing result, but it's a liberating one. After 40 years it's obvious that enjoyment is all we can accomplish.
Each of us has their own approach to the conundrum, so you’re left preaching to the crowd. And well aware of the impact that makes for the greater part in this local focal locus...
*J blows a smoke ring* Lasts about that long, with for the most part as much impact....
...but I try to be ’diplomatic’ about things in general...;)
Thank you my friend...
I hope i could have your wit and wise understanding, i must not forget your more diplomatic demeanor than mine....
I am too rough on the corner and lack humor, but i only want other to think about the simple basic fact:
«Dont upgrade anything before embedding them all...»
I read you always with pleasure since the first time...
Thanks to be so understanding in all sense of the word....
I build my own speakers and can move drivers and tweeters around and switch in and out until I find that ideal sound - not too hot, not too cold, but just right!
Each of us has their own approach to the conundrum, so you're left preaching to the crowd. And well aware of the impact that makes for the greater part in this local focal locus...
*J blows a smoke ring* Lasts about that long, with for the most part as much impact....
...but I try to be 'diplomatic' about things in general...;)
Aren't all speakers 'revealing'....whatever is being sent to them?
Doesn't indicate good, bad, indifferent to me....
"The damn things Work..." OMG, what a surprise, 50$ or 50K$...
It reminds me of a 'come on' line from 'Bored of the Rings' by the National Lampoon;
"Do you like what you doth see?" the elf maiden coo-ed, parting her robe, exposing the glories beneath....
(...well, Maybe....'maidens' tend Not to know what they're totally 'in for'...robes can disguise contents....how drunk Are you? Really....the following morning can 'reveal' hopelessly bad judgement....)
Been there, done that? Take a number....go to the end of the line... ;)
The recording is resolved by the system+room, but the system +room reveal his own inner working in resolving the source...
People speaks as if the dac has the only resolving power, or the turntable, or the speakers, but it is the system+room that resolve the recording...
People speaks like the speakers could have too much "revealing", too much details, or resolution, but it is the speakers+room that reveal ,not only the recording ,but the way the room deliver it....Speaking of "revealing" about bad designed speakers is not a good use of the word.....
Then there is a difference and a balance between "resolving" and "revealing"....Resolving refer to the original acoustic of the recorded initial musical event, revealing refer to his recreation by the system+room...
The ears/brain distinguished the 2 acoustical spaces, and all audio acoustical science is the art of educating the ears to use these 2 acoustical dimensions in the same moment...
But the acoustic of a room is NOT the acoustic of a musical hall... Secondary reflections plays an active part in a small room and contrary to some sayings not a negative one at all if we know how to use them.... Then the Active acoustical controls can play an important role in the way we use the complex interplay between direct sound and reflections.... Passive materials treatment is not enough contrary of what is said in most audio thread..... This is my last discovery....
By the way nothing is more important than the room acoustic, no electronic component do much without the room.... But most people dont know that because they dont have any comparison point...
I have one and no system is at his utmost level without room controls...Nevermind the price....Even if you are in near listening.... This is a myth to think that in near listening the role plays by the room is diminished and played down.... This is rubbish but people have no comparison point with any experiments....
A small room is a very complex acoustical space and NO computer can use it and compensate for all the content and topology, because too much non linear variables are coupled.... We need the ears to work one step at a time the active controls that will make possible a very good S. Q. The active controls gives a feed back for the ears to work with one step at a time in each different and specific room....We can compute the nodes to put passive materials in a room, but active devices need to be located where the ears guide us to put them....
Only active controls work with the limitations proper to each different audio system and can compensate for them(dac,amplifier, speakers)...Passive materials work identically for all audio systems.... This is a very important difference unknown to most..
I couldn't disagree more. Seasoned reviewers know the difference between a revealing speaker and one with a tipped up top end or a broad peak in the upper midrange.
@po5 millercarbon has tweaked his system to his likes. I didn't like his prior speakers at all when I heard them years ago. My Legacy speakers aren't the most revealing either, but with a superior acoustic room and high end (not SOTA) equipment/cabling and tweaks, I have made them the envy of my friends (and they are sooo inexpensive used). I know I what I am missing, ambiance that my Signature IIIs have with their rear tweeter that my Focuses have less of. I also have less gut punch from the Focuses than the smaller woofers of the Sig IIIs. That's why it's going to cost big bucks to upgrade from the oh so musical sound I currently enjoy to get those characteristics and better resolving/detailed sound while maintaining the musical sound (that I hear when I record choirs, chamber and a large orchestra music at the best venues like Disney Hall, Royce Hall, Gindi, college halls, churches, etc).
Thinking of line/panel speakers also made me think of "revealing" which is caused more by speaker/room interaction than tonal choices in the speaker.
That is, like a horn, line and panels, and open baffle speakers, interact with the room differently. When those are revealing, they are ignoring the room acoustic issues. Of course, there are usually other trade-offs.
@millercarbon. Can you compare the Moabs to the Von Schweikert Ultra 9 and 11? Those are the most revealing, listenable speakers I’ve heard (as have dozens of reviewers). Sure, they are a ton more expensive than Moabs. I haven’t heard Moabs but reviews indicate that they are best suited to solitary listening like Sander stats. That is not a negative, just a limitation whereas the VS speakers are made to sound great throughout the room. With friends and my wife, I need a speaker with a great sound throughout the room, so I am willing to pay more for that speaker feature. My current speakers provide a very good wide listening area but which still has about a 3’ wide best central seating sound. The primary ideal for the VS speakers is produce the sound that the microphone hears which can be any sound/coloration but is revealing the source as recorded.
What is YOUR suggestion for the correct wording to use in order to describe undefined speakers you probably won't like?
So many putting words in my mouth. Let me try to clarify. Usually, when I read "revealing" the reviewer treats this without a down side. I'll give you a great, precise example.
The modern Dali speakers have a raised treble profile. That's not opinion, that's measurement, and they treble runs significantly hotter. Now, it would be fine to call it "revealing." In a sense, these are ideal low volume speakers as they will "reveal" more treble ant lower listening levels than another speaker, and if you like that (I do not) then that's a great match. However, if I were to review them I'd put that out there. They are going to be better at low volumes than high volumes, but the average reviewer will just go nuts over the hot treble, say they've never heard such detail in their records, blah blah, without addressing the downside.
Again, these may be ideal for you, your hearing, your paper thin walls, whatever. It is the use of "revealing" to call out something that is not neutral without further explanation.
I think what you describe about speakers also applies to live music in a concert hall or an opera house. The sound is colored by differences in acoustics in different seats, how many people are seated near you, and how absorptive the clothes they and you are wearing. Because you can only so much do far worrying about the ideal frequency response and imagining which is limited by the size of each group of instruments, the same is true for the pursuit of neutrality in speakers. The advice of choosing the sound you prefer is therefore more sound.I spent a couple of months more than a couple of years ago getting my Magnepan 0.7's the way I wanted. I also wasted time trying to get a subwoofer to work with Magnepans and it can't be done. Subwoofers draw either draw attention to themselves or the make no difference in the sound with Magnepns. A pair of DWM's is the only way to balance the lower frequencies to sound natural, something easy for me to do because I series wired each of the two elements in each DWM giving them an impedance of 8 Ohms. It was a simple matter to take the 4 Ohm outputs of the Hammond 1642SE transformer for the 0.7's and the 8 to 16 Ohm taps in phase for the DWM's. Of course it takes radio station transmitter triodes to power insensitive Magnepans but that is a different subject.
erik_squires OP9,458 posts08-22-2020 1:32pmPS: My second pet peeve are reviewers who hear "revealing" and very colored speakers and call them "neutral" when they are clearly not.
If they are revealing? Sounds like they are revealing all the coloration the rest of your system is having a problem with. That is... if they are truly revealing.
twoleftearsRevealing = equivalent of cranking up the sharpness control on your TV.
Very good analogy. As a professional photographer, I always have to know when the sharpness added is beneficial and when it is too much. Knowing the same in audio is more difficult, since I react faster through my eyes than through my ears.
Sounds like you have a semantics problem specifically associated with speakers YOU don’t like. What is YOUR suggestion for the correct wording to use in order to describe undefined speakers you probably won’t like?
You miss the point completely...
I dont speak about speakers i dont like.... I try to explain a complex situation in the simplest words...
Contrary to your misconception, almost all speakers can sound good rightfully embed in the house and room if they are paired with the right amplifier and dac...
Most speakers that sound bad are badly linked to the wrong piece of equipment for them and/or wrongly embed in their mechanical, electrical, and acoustical dimensions ...(except for some badly designed speakers for sure)
Now there is almost no speakers rightly designed i will not like AFTER embedding them and AFTER pairing them with a good dac and amp.(Even if i had my preference like everybody for the best quality speakers)
Liking some branded speakers is not like liking and tasting a brand of cheese....You must know how to use and embed the speakers, and then you must know how to deal with the resolving power and revealing power balance of the speakers in specific house /room/positions.
If the speakers is a stick, it has 2 ends, he resolve at one end and reveal at the other end.... :)
Or more simply put: Speakers, room and ears are only one organ......
Sounds like you have a semantics problem specifically associated with speakers YOU don't like. What is YOUR suggestion for the correct wording to use in order to describe undefined speakers you probably won't like?
The dac/amplifier/ speakers resolve, but the speakers/room reveal.
The resolving and the revealing are 2 properties of speakers that must be distinguished....
The resolving potential is in relation to "generic" pre-designed components in the speakers, the revealing potential is in relation to " specific" working of the mechanical structure of the speakers, not only the electronical or electrical one, in the room....
The resolving is defined in relation to the source, the revealing is defined in relation with the room’s embeddings....
Engineering science like medecine is an art, the art of the trade-off....
Revealing = you will need ear plugs Ruthlessly revealing = you will need ear plugs and Advil Needs careful system matching = you will need ear plugs, Advil, a tube amp, and a glass of Scotch
In my younger years I made a point to get to every live performance available. Everything from rock concerts, country groups and individuals, and large and small orchestral and jazz performances. In every kind of hall, from large auditoriums, to night clubs, to cathedrals, to outdoor stadiums. In nearly all cases (except rock concerts, which were just really loud, engaging, but loud) they had one thing in common - a fullness and a richness in the music that many super revealing speakers/systems don't seem to capture. I auditioned a very expensive pr. of diamond driver speakers, a while back and was very impressed with their dynamics and detail at first, but after a half hour of listening at only a moderate levels - I thought my ears were going to bleed. I'll pass on the uber revealing/beat you over the head speakers and stick with those that are full and musical and are realistically revealing without beating you up......Jim
Resolving the information encoded in a cd and revealing it "in some way" through a room for example, is not the same thing when we speak about speakers....
The speakers has a designed resolving power, but it cannot manifest it in the heaven of idea, he must be in a specific house...In this sense the speakers is able to resolve something coming from the amp and dac, but it will manifest and be revealed through the mechanical structural properties of the speakers in a specific room ....
The 2 are linked but we must distinguish them to understand something beyond small talk....
Distinguishing something without separating it, this is call thinking ....
« Better a jam audio than a jam brain»-Groucho Marx :)
It seems nobody understand what i speak about distinguishing "revealing" and "resolving"...
Speakers are in an audio chain linked with multiple electronic components, they NEVER exist ideally and "generically" only, they comes from the sky of "generic" design on the earth of your "specific" room, and then they are + or - resolving in relation to the recording source and reveal all that plays against or for a better S.Q. coming from their link to other electronic components, coming also from the mechanical, electrical. and acoustical embeddings...We listen to, not only to a recording, not only to some speakers, not only to our gear, but to our room and house....
Then speaking of different speakers brand name properties had a limit: your house is not mine and any speakers will resolve differently the same files or cd and will reveal in his own way the difference between these 2 houses...
There is differences ,and big one, between different speakers branded name, but not one sound the same in different house and embeddings...
Then, is an absolute perfect resolving of the files or cd possible? No, and it is not desirable at all...
What is revealed by speakers? The " colored" different ways in which they manifest a resolving power in different environments and linked with different gear, rightly embed or not....
Then there is always a trade-off between resolving and revealing....Even if the speakers is specifically designed to be resolving, his embeddings and link with other gear, will manifest this in variable degrees or colors...
The "living" quality of a set of speakers is the result of this trade-off.. Trade-off between his "generic" properties and the "specific" manifested one...
I hope this was clear because this is my experience.... :)
Confusing "resolving" and "revealing" put us in the marketing discourse that sells products and makes no sense at all...
If i say that my Mission speakers are more resolving than your speakers, my discourse made no sense, except advocating for my favorite brand name... Even if this is true by the measured virtues of the "generic" design and conception, this is a half truth, because a less resolving designed speakers will resolve better in a better embedding sometimes, than a more resolving designed speakers in a bad embeddings...
:)
In a last word, "resolving" is only one of the properties of a good speaker, his "revealing" flexibility and adaptability relatively to any embeddings is another one, and a more "musical" one....
Good point that I didn't really think about, that what is revealed in a "revealing" speaker could be more of a focus on certain frequencies as opposed to an overall statement of quality. As a teenager who bought low quality stuff bought in the 70's/80's (but was better than the offerings from department stores like Sears, Montgomery Ward, Korvette's, Two Guys) and just picked up the hobby again a few years, it was easy to buy entry-level equipment today that was way better than what I had hiding in the closet, so everything I bought added some resolution/soundstage/imaging that I never had before. I was less choosy when buying new equipment because I was confident it was going to be better than what I had, and it usually was. The further you go up the quality ladder you start experiencing different flavors as opposed to jumps in quality, but you can perceive an emphasis in certain frequency bands as being "better", if that's the sound you gravitate towards. I initially started preferring equipment with that high-end "sizzle", thinking that was more resolving, revealing, etc. because I heard things emphasized that I never did before. I started noticing my ears were feeling that they were being muffled after a short while (any musician who has had a stage monitor feed back and squeal at them knows the feeling), so I had to back off of the emphasis on the highs and get reacquainted to comfortable listening sessions. Speakers are something you really have to listen to in your own room with your equipment, once you already have quality equipment. I've rambled enough - I'm boring myself now. One more thought: a lot of the music I listened to in my youth and so loved sounds like unlistenable dreck nowadays: compressed to oblivion, cheesy instrumentation, extreme left/right panning, howling mistakes and such. I pulled out my old copy of "Grand Funk - Live Album", played half a side of Side 4 ("Into the Sun"), and promptly took it back off - just couldn't take it anymore.
Dazzlingmd is the post that makes the most sense. I have no idea why everyone jumped on the original post as if it were gospel. My first thought was, "is eric making fun by explaining the opposite of the definition?" I have both albums that Dazzlingmd described, and many other examples, and what he says is true. Not only with my current two revealing systems, but with all the many systems I have owned in the past. BTW, isn't funny how we all say we want our system to be as close to a live performance as possible, when at least half of the many shows I have seen have crappie sound?
At any rate, I'd expect a "revealing" system to make subtle details
audible at normal listening levels, in addition to having a nearly flat
frequency response, with little blurring/smearing due to phase and
timing issues.
So, instruments and vocals sound natural and realistic; the soundstage/image is believable; subtle details are neither masked nor exaggerated.
That pretty much sums up what I thought the term revealing meant in regards to audio too.
Of course it can reproduce the signal fed to it, to reveal a poor recording, loads of distortion, and other negative things as equally as a good sounding system.
had my share of revealing speakers and had musical speakers and some companies give you both but then you need an arc welder to drive them or wife says Not in my house. D&D are onto something, but Jim Salk (I think)said In a recent post on asr that while his active speaker got great feedback at a show there was like no interest in it, audiophiles want separates. I probably butchered the quote but thats what I got out of it.
Try to be more subtle my friend.... Sarcasm is an art.....You seems to want to be a professional entertainer but it is a bit boring....Others perhaps like that, call for a vote, and if you win, i will go..... :)
Myself i am a bit too serious then i apologize to you.... But i dont like laughing at the expanse of others.... I prefer discussions....
Sounds like a lot of audiophiles are frustrated having not achieved success in getting that revealing speaker, being bought or homemade, so they attribute it to other factors, which is a mistake. It’s a variation on The Fox and the Sour Grapes.
You read the thread a bit too swiftly..... :)
I was distinguishing "revealing" and "resolving" because the most resolving speakers in the world will reveal some needing controls in the 3 embeddings and not only defects in the recording source materials....
What you call "other factors", meaning non important one, because you are being too carried away by the hope to have bought the best speakers you can (upgrade urge to solution a complex audio problem or evacuate it under the wished brand so called ideal product) are the most important factors in audio experience, not only the ideal design of a pair of speakers.... Buying better gear does not implicate that they would be correctly embedded by the magical property of the speakers design........
But i dont doubt that in a way or in another, your future "resolving" speakers will "reveal " to you the defects needed to be adress in your 3 embeddings and not only from your source recordings cd or vinyl....
And to design a "resolving" speakers even the best one is also and always a trade-off....
Audio, being an empirical endeavour, and not reducible to electronic design, electric engineering, or acoustical engineering,or mechanical engineering, rather encompassing all that with our specific ears history, is the art of trade-off....
Simple ready made solutions to all audio problems dont exist except for the marketing companies that sell them .... It is not my road..... :)
My best to you from a fox who has eaten already no so sour grapes of his own.... :)
Sounds like a lot of audiophiles are frustrated having not achieved success in getting that revealing speaker, being bought or homemade, so they attribute it to other factors, which is a mistake. It's a variation on The Fox and the Sour Grapes.
Add in a normal amount of pride (which we all have) and having spent all that money and/or time and it still isn't revealing (there's that word again) and it's easy to blame it on other considerations that although factor in, are not the culprit.
I don't wish to highjack this thread so I'll stop here and let you know that I'll be posting my impressions soon on a new speaker I heard that one could call, revealing, in the best sense of the word.
@mahgister- Of course; how others communicate their ideas/perceptions is often a learning experience. Somewhat: the theme of this thread. Happy listening!
@mahgister- I thought I was being quite clear; in that clean and ample AC, vibration control and room acoustics are PRIMARY, in my experience and different from tweaks. ie: "It’s been my experience; only after those (the above mentioned) are correctly addressed/implemented, can most truly appreciate the improvements (ie: resolved/revealed microdynamics) so many of the oft-argued about components or, "tweaks" offer.
@mahgister- The article does mention clean (I’d add ample) AC and vibration control, which, "aided" the author in obtaining greater system resolution. Though I’ve always considered both those and room acoustics (per Sabin, etc) primary, far as setting up either a live venue, or home listening room; I’ve never heard the term, "embedding" applied. Does make sense. It’s been my experience; only after those are correctly addressed/implemented, can one appreciate the improvements (ie: resolved/revealed microdynamics) so many of the oft-argued about components or, "tweaks" offer. Happy listening!
"Embeddings" is a word for describing this triple necessary interaction where any electronic component is immersed in and work with...
Embeddings controls do no refer to "tweaks", no tweak solve the problem by itself...
A bunch of tweaks does not add to a method...
The method is an experimental listenings journey, implying many devices or materials specifically created for one "specific" need (room house audio system and ears) ...
"Generic" costly tweaks are not my way....I prefer "specific" homemade solutions adjusted to my ears and material conditions in my house....
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