Simaudio Moon 880m monoblocks could be an alternative to some other choices of amplification for the Neolith.
1600w/ch at 4 ohms. The Neolith can handle this power with ease.
I read that someone has the 888m monoblocks in for testing now. They are very expensive. And also if money is no object, quite sexy on the inside and out.
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Weight 385 lbs. Low Frequency Transducer== Rear: 15” ,Front: 12” High Frequency Transducer== » Panel Dimensions 48" x 22" » Radiating Area 1056 in²
This,my friends, is ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER VS Anyone Else on stage back in his prime.
Over two years and four thousand responses in the making!
I believe whitecamaross said a Wednesday delivery. Then,hopefully by Friday we will get a full report after a lengthy setup and listening sessions. It's not often an audiophile gets to enjoy some of the greatest pieces our hobby has to offer and I truly wish him a super awesome experience. I wish I lived next door!!!! But I am grateful to share WC's experiences and thoughts these last few years!
As Arnold must have said, "I'm Pumped"!
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@whitecamaross
Anyhow, I’ve said Parasound multiple times and now I might try a pair of jc5s for fun and see what these do that the old jc1s didn’t do. Just curious what the JC1's did or didn't do for you, sound-wise. If you didn't like the JC1's then I doubt you will like the newer model since both are JFET/MOSFET amps with the older model spec'ing out in both current delivery, doubling power into 4 ohms, and Class A output. |
The jc1s had amazing bass control. Far better than many amps out there. It reminded me a lot of the Hegel h30. It didn’t have the best highs or mids but they weren’t lacking either. The bass really stood out though. It drove the 800d2 I had briefly with crazy bass control. The entire recliner vibrates when I pushed it.
I may biamp the Neolith though. I think this speaker is that speaker that can be tons of fun and almost like an experimentation needs to happen with it at all times to bring the very best from them.
How many of you really think the Alexia 2 would kill this Neolith? I bet nobody would place a nice bet against the Neolith losing a battle against anything that retails for less.
Hell I haven’t owned the speaker yet and I know I couldn’t bet against this speaker. Not until I own and have hands on experience. The biggest sounding speaker I’ve owned was the vivid audio g1. That sounded massive and fast sounding.
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Correction: My JC1 vs. JC5 post below should have read, "with the older model spec'ing out lower in current delivery, power into 4 ohms, and Class A output." Otherwise, the two amps seem similar but from a specification basis, it appears the newer JC5 stereo amp is a watered down version of the JC1 mono amps.....maybe to offer "similar" performance at a lower price point and attract more buyers? I didn't see any indication the JC5s could be used as monoblocks. |
Techno.........then all you would have is $150 New Balance while WC is still sporting Jordan’s.....lol
WC......congrats on the Neoliths and the Jordan’s |
Remember one thing: most (if not all of you) have either only been told the Neolith isn’t good OR you heard it at a show and you sat on the last row with a ton of old bald heads in front of you while they played some crazy stupid music you have never heard before. If there’s an actual Neolith owner here then speak up. I want to hear from you or else I’ll review it and will give you my take.
Lastly, I understand electrostatics aren’t for everyone. I totally get that, but if you are only talking because you have heard other electrostatics and you didn’t like them so you assume the Neolith is no different then you are already coming in with a biased opinion.
I happen to like panels and conventional woofer/tweeter speakers. Both do exceptional things and it’s a matter of taste. Let’s wait and see what they will bring to the table. Patience guys...
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WC,
Welcome to the electrostatic lovers community. But don't engage in comparisons based on money. For purity/clarity in mids/HF, the Neo will be superior to ANY dynamic/horn design at ANY price. So will even the cheapest hybrid stat of the ML line at a few thousand bucks. Most stat owners here will agree with me that dynamic drivers are hopelessly colored by comparison. I have heard enough Wilsons and other dynamics over the years to know this. Stat technology is old and cheap, and even expensive dynamic driver/box designs can't compete, simply because the dominant factor of nearly massless stat drivers outclasses more massive dynamic drivers. The best dynamic technology, horns, still won't compete with the purity of stat drivers. It is good that the Neos are so massive that they will be a pain to sell unless you absolutely hate them, which is doubtful. Don't even consider dynamic speakers at this point. So let me help you get the most out of the Neo, which is here to stay for a long time, a good thing.
Most important, they need about 6 feet in front of your front wall. With only 1-2 feet, they will sound OK, but much more congested and less spacious and revealing. Next, toe-in is critical for getting the absolute most info in HF. Much experimentation will be necessary. Put them on a few dollies with casters, or a lazy Susan type of platform. My friend with his huge SoundLab A1's and then U1's had a string on each R/L corner of each speaker so he could easily rotate the toe-in from his listening chair. Say you place the centers of each panel 7 feet apart. Start with a toe-in of 15 degrees so you sit 14 feet away to get the midpoint of the panel facing your head. Since your room is 24 feet long, there will be 4 feet behind you to the back wall. You might like this large 14 foot listening distance which could give the best integration of all frequencies and focus so that you don't get the feeling you are up too close kissing the elephant. The other extreme, with toe-in of 30 degrees for each speaker, creating an equilateral triangle of 60 degrees, you would be sitting 7 feet away, with 11 feet behind you. This might be too close, and yielding a more bass dominant tonal balance. Perhaps your chosen distance of 8.5 feet might be your best preference. Some days and for some music, you might prefer different distances with toe-ins.
If you are not yet ready to become an electrostatic purist with the CLX which uses the stat panel down to 56 Hz, the Neo gives you the stat purity from above 1000 Hz (the dynamic woofers will contribute some response up to that), plus the dynamics you like which will be more than the CLX. And the revealing Momentum Integrated gives you 200 watts into 8 ohms, 400 into 4, 800 into 2, probably 1600 into 1, maybe 3200 into 0.5. Fabulous power potential with pure sound. You could be in heaven for many years with just what you have.
I still caution you to not fall for the "more money makes better" idea. This may generally be correct, but the gambling table becomes a crime scene when too much money is involved. Merrill is doing more advanced technology than the common big names, so the $36K Element 118 might kill any Dag. I will probably try the $22K Element 116, which is still very powerful and may have 95% of the purity of the 118. I am still awaiting the 114 mono, which will probably be in the teens. This still might be a giant killer. Even for common technology, I favor Krell sound over the Pass that I have heard. From your description and published reviews of Dag, I think Dag offers better value than Pass. Dag is really trying to produce the best clarity and power, whereas Pass admits that his priority is to give the typical audiophile the euphonic sound he wants. It is NOT about who spends the most money.
I want to hear how your BAT+ Ref 10 compares to the Momentum. |
A few points. Years ago, when I purchased my Rane ME60 ( 2nd version without the ground lift switch on rear ), it was recommended to me based on an amp manufacturer, stating the "constant Q", developed by Rane, was the most versatile, and best sounding eq, at that time, for a high end home audio system. I was never an eq guy at home, but wanted it for room eq. I enjoyed it, initially, but boxed it up, because I had gotten my speaker / room situation to a point where I was happy. I moved a few times, took it with me, but only until reading viber6's use, and praise, did I decide to try it, again. I needed to get rid of the chassis nasties, and it is significantly a better unit now. Viber6 is using it, in place of a line stage, which I tried as well. Although I no longer have my two " high end " preamps, which I sold after going passive, I find the eq to be quite clean and transparent, although, still not close to my passive unit. It is in a 2nd system, and it has bettered a fairly nice, modified pre that I have enjoyed for many years. I just do not listen to my 2nd, or 3rd systems. That is the story on the eq ( for dguitarnut ). Enjoy ! MrD. |
The bat gear is gone. As far as momentum vs pass, no pass amplifier that I’ve owned has sounded as close to tubes as this momentum integrated. Not even the xs150 I owned. The momentum integrated is THE CLOSEST to tubes I’ve ever heard.
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Now on to WC. Based only my readings of both the Momentum and Gryphon integrates, and understanding what has been written about each ( never heard either ), it was easy for me to make the statement earlier, that I did not think the Grython would better the Dag in any way, shape or form. It turns out to be the case, as WC has stated ( and yes, the bass will be the same, as Dan knows how to do bass ). Next, WC is getting family staying with him, starting this weekend, for about a month, so, this might hinder his listening a bit, so, I anticipate a longer wait for a full review on the Monoliths. But he will know shortly, if it is the best he has had, within a short amount of time. I will continue this at a later time, as my gf wants to go look at puppies ( we have 3 cats ), and her birthday is coming up. I will never buy a purebred for big bucks, as I believe in adoption. Enjoy ! MrD. |
Last thing, wc, your last description of the momentum integrated, stating is the closest ss you have heard to tubes, says quite a lot. In my mind, smoothness of tubes, dynamics and slam of ss, all in one. Perfection ? Enjoy ! MrD. |
The momentum is easily the best all in one box I’ve owned. Again, I feel like this could easily beat many separates out there. Trust me that I don’t see a reason why anyone would have a single complaint about this piece. There’s simply nothing to fault it other than MAYBE I wish it was 400 watts into 8 ohms but I’m sure that’s what separates are for.
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+1 Viber,
Merril and CH precision stereo are examples that 65k is to much for the DAg integrated. Except if you fall in love with its esthetics, or you’re into the ´´more I pay the better I feel I own a piece of jewelry.´´
Nothing I see in this momentum integrated justifies this much. Heck Ayre acoustics separates have much better inside parts, and technology to go with it... Also Ayre has a digital background that is leagues ahead of Dag.
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Techno: before Ria comes here to slam you, the integrated is 45k. Not 65k... |
WC, borrow an Alpha NR from Shunyata and put it on the Momentum. You will ear more than the WW silver electra. Not even close. Enjoy the Full nuances and color palette from the dag with this powercord. |
Techno, When does the endless NONSENSE stop coming out of your fingers? You have never heard either Merrill or CH Precision. Feel free to call up Gideon Schwartz at Audio Arts in NYC and ask him why he DROPPED CH Precision from his lineup. I got my Audio Note gear from him. Not sure he will suffer a call from a fool thou. I have The TOTL Ayre Pre-Amp KXR-TWENTY and had the VXR-Twenty until recently. You are COMPLETELY Clueless if you think these compete with DAGS....not even close..not even in the same stratosphere. Just another example why nobody on this thread should ever pay attention to anything you say. Oh wait....Maybe Suckers who try to match Luxman and McIntosh gear in the same system. DUH!!! |
Yeah I could see that one coming a mile away! |
Ok WCSS. You have my attention On the momentum.
What would your thoughts be for someone who didn’t need a pre?
i run an Arunder n10 through a Berkeley dac (which does volume control) straight out to my ancient JRDG 7’s.
i started following this thread because I figured that the 7m’s were the weak link and I would hunt for amp ideas.
But I wonder if money wouldn’t be better spent looking for a used momentum if one ever surfaced? |
RIAA,
Your decorum is #1, in poor taste, and #2, detracts from the useful info you have to contribute. As you have said, the most important comments are from people who have personally heard the item in their reference system and describe the comparative characteristics in detail, objectively, and if possible, free of value judgments. If value judgments are made, the poster's perspective should be clear so that the reader can understand why statements are made. The other day, someone said he heard the CH Precision against a Dag and said it had superior sound and was cheaper. Have you heard the CH? If not, then it is of much less interest why some dealer dropped it. If you say that Dag kills Ayre, in what sonic way? If you like tubey sound and I like neutral, clear sound, and Dag sounds more tubey than Ayre, then for me the preference would be the opposite. It doesn't matter how you or I rate them, but if you just factually state the characteristics, that is far more useful for the reader to decide which is right for him. If you want to discuss technical characteristics, that is also useful--just don't come out with meaningless claims that such and such is not in the same universe. But even that is nowhere as bad as disparaging the character of other posters and denigrating the value of what they have to say. |
Yes Here’s the scoop on the mometum:
it will be HARD to beat the momentum. I don’t think the Luxman combo beats it. The Luxman has a lot of the Dag smoothness and liquidity though but as I stated before, you GOTTA match the Luxman with Luxman. They just work amazingly together. Techno, right now you have no clue how good your 900u is. Trust me you will know it’s capability once you try the c900u with it. Dump the McIntosh and find the 900u preamp. Those 2 for the money are hard TJ beat.
Jimmy: the momentum integrated just takes away the tedious work of having to match cables. It even comes with a transparent power cord. Yes the mometum would literally make you forget about amps and preamps for a very long time.
If I had 25-30k to burn on a preamp and amp and the speakers aren’t something crazy hard to drive Then get the mometum integrated and trust me you won’t be scratching your head over it.
That said, the mometum WILL go through a full test once my Neoliths arrive. If It can push them with great presence, detail, clarity and soundstage at moderate to low volume then watch out. I may sell the rest of my gear and keep the momentum. Of course separates will be better but right now my wife is flipping her lid off at midnight when I’m listening to music at 90+dB.
So I suspect (I could be wrong) that the separates would be great if I could let the volume climb without anyone complaining.
I hope to have my dedicated room sometime next year. The Neoliths truly deserve it.
Techno: get the damn 900u preamp. Trust me on this. I don’t recommend anyone to sell their 900u for anything else.
Ron: you gotta listen to the Luxman 900u amp. The 870a is great but man the Luxman is insane. It will blow you away.
The only way I recommend for anyone to sell their 900u pieces is if they are going to go up the ladder to the mometum, soulution, new constellation stuff or Rowland 925s. I’m telling you all, you will regret selling the Luxman pieces. I owned them 4 times and I wish I had them in here but the show must go on!!
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jimmy3993,
I haven't heard any Momentum, but the most general advice I could give is that you would do well to look for any power amp you want. It is nice to be able to eliminate a piece of electronics in the chain, as mrdecibel has described in his enthusiastic tale of his Luminous passive preamp. But you don't even need that, and can save your money for the power amp and other things. |
I don,t believe in costly preamps. I’m for a dac to amp direct ( or for a preamp with a sota dac module included). The dac must have a sota volume control built in.
Nevertheless WC , I am seriously taking your advice about the c900u, I will try it on my system in the near future.
Do you have a Shunyata dealer near you to try one of their new NR powercords. If so, it would be very interesting reading you about it in the context of your coming sota Neoliths system. |
WC,
When you are set up with your Neo, I'd like to hear more about the tonal character of the Momentum. You have praised its tubey/smooth sound, but usually this means rolled off HF and sweet, euphonic mids. But both you and your wife noted more extended HF than the Gryphon. Your wife described the Dag as brighter, which is probably true and consistent with more extended HF, which is not what is usually meant by "tubey." ARC generally has more HF/neutral sound than other tube equipment. You also noted than the Lux 900u had very extended HF, great detail with tubelike midrange. There are some contradictions in these statements, so I wonder where the Momentum fits in. It would be nice to hear the Rowland 925 with the Neo. The problem is that you last heard the Rowland, Lux and Bel Canto Black with other speakers, so I don't see how you can compare the Dag with these other amps from your memory of them with other speakers. |
@WCSS
I think I’ll hold on to my Sim 870a for a while longer. Just bought a pair of YG’s that sound wonderful with it. BTW how many times in the last year did you email me asking to either buy or trade for my amp? |
WCSS- there is a Progression stereo amp listed for sale. It would move at $13k I think. Is that line any good?
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The way I can compare amps with different speakers is very simple: I use the same songs over and over and over and over and over. Easy for me to tell the change in characters, emotional engagement, smoothness, brightness, etc. The Rowland are still the best amps due to their balanced sound throughout. Nothing is missing with the Rowlands or the momentum. The way I can gauge things even after many months is because I’ve lived with the ref10 for quite sometime. Its tonality is engraved in my head. I know what tubes sound like. I am clear on their highs and gorgeous mids. Im not sure I can agree on audio research having rolled off highs. I think they have engaging, non faitiguing highs like the Luxman and momentum.
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Ear fatigue. The bane of any good high end stereo. Me personally, am very sensitive to having the highs grind into my brain and making my ears hurt. I remember going from a Sabre type DAC chip to AKM chips with FPGA programming. Digital all of a sudden sounded closer to analog.
Amps do sound different. I’m still in the Stone Age with my Vintage Krell amplifiers that I use. I can only imagine how good a D’ag could sound 20 years later than my Krell KSA-200s (my current favorite one). I think the D’ag amps can do justice to the hallmark of "fatigue free" sound. I think (don’t know personally) that Pass Labs are not at all having the same type of presentation as D’ag amps. I think WCSS is on the right track to having the Neolith sounding at it’s best with his new choices of amplifiers. Could the Rolands mono blocks sound as good or better than the D’ags? Not sure. But I would guess that the D’ag monoblocks would win out. Not sure how bi-amping the Neolith would hash out. But I hope that WCSS does some fun things with these babies. Cause, once these speakers are dialed in just right...... LOOK OUT.
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Flemming Rasmussen designed his integrateds for fun and to introduce audiophiles to Gryphon sound. They are inexpensive great pieces.
Listen to his separates especially top of the line. Even better with Gryphon reference speakers. Just not with cd player, with serious analogue source.
By the way, transistor amps should not sound like tube amps. |
@bigddesign3
I agree 100% that Sabre ESS DACs are bright, for sure !
I have never found a Sabre Dac implementation that was good. |
Ron: which yg did you get? Yes I had offered to buy your simaudiio when I was struggling with the mágicos hunger for more power. I was also looking to try two 860a in mono mode but couldn’t find a second 860a so I gave up. Oh well man, I’ve moved on and now I’m looking forward to the massive Monos that are coming. Why haven’t you spoken up man about your new yg?? Give us your input and what speakers did you replace.
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Jimmy: I’ve not heard progression amps. What I do know based on feedback is that they don’t have the finesse of the momentum line which is expected since they are cheaper. |
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Oh oh :)
looks like someone has officially found the amps that I will reviewing this month :)
yes ladies and gentlemen, block audio will soon be making an appearance hopefully this month. Thanks to a good dealer who will let me audition these in my own home with the Neolith. I told you all... my next moves are not for the faint of heart.
Word on the street is that these are gryphon-like but on steroids. Immense juice and power.
I’ve always had a thing for huge monstrous amps and these are what the doctor prescribed for me. |
WC, what is your opinion on the bass of the Momentum? In the August issue of the Positive feedback the R.Youman compares pass labs INT-250 against momentum integrated and according to him the bass of the INT-250 is better. Overall he is stating that Momentum is more 3d with better air and space, but for the almost 1/4 price of the momentum the pass labs INT-250 is pretty good. |
I’d need to wait until I have my Neoliths. I can’t really speak too much about it until I have a true full range speaker. That said, of course, you’ll always find something for less money that checks your boxes, but this doesn’t mean it is better. The momentum isn’t about being bass heavy or a club sounding unit. It is about finesse, engagement, musicality. |
I'm very interested in Whitecamaross' impression of the Neolith speakers. I can tell you that I heard them several times at Dealers and also in shows with Audio Research REF 250 SE/REF 10 and also DAG electronics. I'm very familiar with Vandersteen, Wilson and Martin Logan equipment and the Neoliths will not disappoint with proper setup and burn in. Get on the Martin Logan owner's web site and find out the proper set up and toe-in procedure. They list it there. Use manufacturer's recommendations and also owner's recommendations (from the web site). I own the Monolith III speakers with upgraded peerless woofers, Krell KBX balanced crossover (designed for the Monolith III) and I can tell you, with Audio Research REF250's driving the upper panels and a Mark Levinson (upgraded and caps replaced driving the woofers, with a REF 6 pre-amp, I haven't heard anything that prompts me to upgrade speakers. I ordered new panels (but found out afterwards that my panels are fine). I spoke with Gale Sanders at the 2018 RMAF and he told me that in his opinion (while demonstrating his new speakers) that the Monolith III with Krell KBX is probably one of the best speakers he has designed, even today. I agree. The Martin Logan rep at the RMAF told me that the Neolith is based on the Monolith III. I really like the Neolith. I'm even more glad that they can be obtained in black. The Vandersteen 7's with Audio Research REF250 SE/REF10 pre/REF 10 phono was the best I've heard. Absolutely disappeared. I don' know the power output from the DAG integrated but, I believe it will work fine. WC, what issues (possible negative) did you have with the Magico speakers? In my opinion, speaker selection is probably the hardest decision to make. enjoy |
Minorl:
i didn’t have any issues with the magico. They need quality watts for sure though. The only reason why I’ve moved on is because I wanted the magico m3 and that deal fell through. I continued exploring other options and that lead me to finally doing the deal with a pair of Neolith. Magico will be a speaker I will revisit down the road along with Wilson and yg. My biggest curse will be me getting used to the massive soundstage of the Neolith and my ears detecting how much smaller every speaker will sound in comparison. This has happened to me once already when I heard the Neoliths. However, your brain forgets just like anything else. Living with the Neoliths will be an interesting experience that I greatly look forward to.
Lets not forget that my journey with panels was as follows:
Martin Logan esl
martin logan theos
martin logan montis
martin logan summit x
martin Logan 15a
martin logan 13a
martin logan Clx
and now there’s no other way I can go but above.. |
Thanks WC for clearing that up for me. I heard the Magico's a few times in different venues and each time I really liked them. enjoy |
Upgraded the powercord today again. Exchanged the Delta NR for an Alpha NR !! It is now getting burned in on the Lux 900u.
I liked the Delta NR so much I had to know what the upper model could bring. Blowed an additional 1k $ to bring peace to my audiophile mind. I guess I feel like Riaa...the wind in my hair knowing I can buy anything I want and show off on the gon, ( though 1k is just pocket change for him... ) Bring me Dag, bring me Dag...lol
Seriously, early impressions about the Alpha NR to come. |
Awesome. I’ll get around to power cords at some point.
The Neoliths are getting delivered tomorrow! |
woohoo! review by midnight puh-leeze!..lol |
Cables, including power cords are system dependent. I've owned Wireworld Platinum power cords, auditioned several others in my system, including Shunyata Sigma NR. When you get around to power cords I suggest trying a Audioquest Hurricane.
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@ WCSS
I went from a Proac D30r to a YG Carmel 2. I felt I was getting too much speaker/room interaction from the floor ported Proac design. After reading your review of your Magico's I started looking at sealed cabinet designs. Magico and YG became my short list. The Carmel 2's are a little lean where my room produces too much bass (36-42hz). For me in my room with my electronics and musical tastes they are a perfect fit. Very detailed, highly refined and a massive soundstage. I think speaker/room interaction shot to the top of my list of importance for hi-end 2 channel listening. The Carmel 2's would be too small for you but the Hailey or the Sonja might work....for a few months.....lol.
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I Hey Ron,
i may be taking some yg hailey 1.2 as well besides the Neoliths... i was offered an awesome deal on the Sonja 2.2 but I saw them in person and they are just massive. I feel they are just as overwhelming in sheer size as the Neolith. Lastly, a speaker that big can be difficult to move just like the Neolith but the reason why I wasn’t so concerned with the Neolith is that I know I will like them. I don’t have a doubt in my mind that the Neolith will surprise me but I can’t speak about the Sonja 2.2. I can’t invest on a speaker that huge without ever trying any of their offerings. Having vast experience with the Logans, I feel good about it. Remember, I have owned more Martin Logan speakers than any other speaker brand. I have a very good idea of what I can expect, but the unknown factor will be owning Martin Logan’s best speaker ever and seeing what they are capable of. |
As my good friend Mike Rose said yesterday, "there's no free lunch". He is totally right, there is tiering in audio because better chassis', parts, and engineering is easily hearable. |
tjassoc...did you get your meridian stuff back. Did you send it to Marc Koval?
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Aw man.....you are really going to try the Block Audio amps! I would love to hear those. They sure look like cost was no object in the design or construction. Enjoy your audition. |
ricred1,
Shunyata has been making great powercords since 1998.
Audioquest has been making great powecords since the new Hurricane.
I ‘ve tried AQ speaker cables once, their carbon dielectric around the conductor dulls the sound too much. Just like Van Den Dull do with the same carbon dielectric...
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mikepaul - our Meridian pieces came in, Marc Koval did the repairs/upgrades. Marc has become our "go to guy" of all things Meridian since our local retailer no longer carries the line. Marc is EXCEPTIONAL!
Work and supporting our neighbor (who's 21 year old son OD'd) has kept me from setting up and configuring our system. I apologize for the negative in such a positive thread.
I will most certainly post once our system gets up and breaks in.
Have to admit, I'm really eager to what whitecamaross experiences with the Block amplifiers, a quick inquiry from the provided links seems very promising.
We have a great group and an special leader in this thread!
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