Roxy was being sarcastic about the MID-FI comment. WCSS called Mcintosh products MID-FI in this thread....which is exactly what they are. Put some DAG M400's in that setup and the game would be over.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
Midfi is an amp that sounds muffled in comparison to hifi amps. The average person couldn’t differentiate between a mid fi or hi fi amp but when you own both at once, it’s easy to tell them apart. The McIntosh 601 helped big time but I also attribute this to them being Monos. If the 601s can make such a difference, I wonder what a pair of 600.8 can do? Or luxman 900u Monos? That is what is triggering me now... |
WC--the soft romantic tubey midrange, ballsy bass, rolled off highs of the McIntosh will turn your Magico in the direction of the Focal. Sure, more bass and power, but as the highs are reduced, so will the information retrieval be compromised. Pass is merely a better version of Mac. Nelson Pass said that he designs amps to please the audiophiles who like so called "musical" sound, not to offer accuracy. See the latest issue of Stereophile for the lovesick review of the Pass 200.8, with full admission that the highs are rolled off but he doesn't care. I think the Bryston 28B cubed to be your best idea. This will give you plenty of power, an excellent level of neutrality and accuracy, but with some amount of sweetness. I am looking forward to your assessment of the Bryston. |
Ok guys so I’ve been listening for the last 2 hours and without me even realizing it, I caught myself listening at 85 dB... this is nuts because I’m typically listening at much higher volumes than this yet with this combination I don’t feel the need to put the pedal to the medal. I feel like I can comfortably hear everything in the music at around 83-85 dB. Hmmmm |
WC--good for you at 85 dB. That is about 1 watt needed for the Magico in your room. The Focal's efficiency is about 2-3 dB higher, so that is one reason it is more effortless with any amplifier. But I still say that for absolute accuracy I have not found anything better than than my little Bryston 2.5 B SST2. This, or the 2.5 B cubed will give 180 watts/ch into the 4 ohms of your Magico, enough for at least 105 dB continuous. Watch out for hearing damage at any higher volume. Several hours of exposure to even 90 dB is enough to cause hearing damage. Surprisingly, when I tried the Classe D200 which puts out 400 watts into 4 ohms, despite getting higher volumes on big orchestral pieces, I wasn't satisfied because high frequency instruments like cymbals and brass (trumpets and trombones) didn't crackle and bite the way they do in real life. Listen to a truck, ambulance or fire engine honk their horns and hear the BLATTY BITE. That's what we need in our audio system to be realistic. You will get that better with the Bryston 2.5 B SST2 and most likely with the cubed new amp than anything I can think of. The Mola Mola Kaluga SOTA class D I have heard, and the neutrality is great, with plenty of power at 700 watts into 4 ohms, but as guidocorona has advised, class D can be unpredictable at less than 1000 hours, so I would try the little Bryston. Read the review of it on 10audio. |
Musicality is better than extreme or hyper detail . Who wants to have something you can't turn up past 75 db without ripping your F'N ears off. Give me musicality all day !! Highly detailed amps or system is ok... if you never turn it up , but what fun is that .I want something i can listen to all night and day . Is the hyper detailed system supposed to impress.If so ,who ..... yourself and or your friends . It might be impressive for the first 10 minutes,but If you cannot listen for more than 30 minutes before you can't take it anymore , that's NO GOOD ! You guys that want detail over everything else are missing out .... on Musicality. Just because a piece of equipment isn't hyper detailed does NOT make it MID FI. You must realize a LOT of people like Musicality over detail. I welcome anyone to come and hear my Very Musical system and see what they think. |
Guys, so there are things we don’t think about here. First off, just because I said 85db, it doesn’t mean any amp that can do 85db comfortably will work. The massive current from Monos will sound very different than a small amp even though they are both at the same volume. The magicos need juice to come to life. Yes I’ll say it again, magicos need juice to get moving. I have tried 3 amps already with them and only the high horsepowered one wakes them up. Also, I listened to the magico last night for hours and it’s a great instrument. It’s really a window to the music. That said, I have realized that accuracy can also be a bit boring and lacking emotion at times. It spooks the hell out of you at times because you hear so much more in the music but I also caught myself analyzing the music much more than ever before and guess what? I forgot to enjoy the music. This has given me food for thought. This made me realize that speakers that aren’t accurate and impose their sound signature isn’t a bad thing either. There is a place for both types of speakers. Here’s what I think so far and still have not chosen what I will do: 1. Wilson: aside from the bass issues I had in my room with the rear port, it’s a big sounding speaker. It has a huge sound with awesome dynamics. It actually grew on me in the 3 months I owned it. 2. Magico: the king of accuracy. It’s like the raw ingredients of each meal you eat without any seasoning added. Think of it as boiled chicken with steamed white rice (follow me here) 3. Focal: dynamic like Wilson and revel. Smooth, incredible oomph in my room with its downfiring port. Think of it as curry chicken with rice and beans. It won’t let you get most of the true taste of the music due to its added flavor. Bottom line: Magico is electrostatic like accurate. There’s nothing it won’t do. Focal is not near as accurate as Magico but it makes music taste good. Lastly, the magico is the only speaker that allowed me to feel the size of the room where the recording took place. Again, it gives you spooky feelings at times. |
On several occasions I’ve stated that Magico’s are the best technical speakers that I have ever listened to, but it doesn’t translate into me preferring them. I submit you highlighted the fact that speakers are about tradeoffs. I really wish "we" would stop looking at things as better or worse, but different. At a certain level we are simply choosing speakers based on how well they integrate into our rooms, with our current components, and based on our preferences. |
Hi ricred1, Is the Magico in your opinion truly an accurate speaker or merely one that’s errs toward a thinner and analytical character rather warmth/full body? I ask for this reason. I recently attended a piano recital that was unamplified in a modest size gallery. I was about 20 feet away from the piano. Talk about full, rich very warm harmonics and vivid sound. Not even a hint of edge, brightness or thinness, zero! So when speakers are described as"accurate to explain brightness,edginess etc. It seems to suggest coloration going in the other direction. If a speaker is genuinely accurate then it should sound "natural" and organic just as the Steinway grand piano did as described above. It won’t equal the natural sound of the live piano(asking too much of any speaker) but should come reasonably close . It certainly shouldn’t add or impose an edge, bright or thin coloration to instruments.it seems that speakers with upper frequency emphasis are mistakenly given credit for hyper detail, transparency and accuracy. Ricred, why could you not live long term with the Magico? Charles |
Charles, I won't argue your point regarding accuracy. My opinion is based on comparing them to other speakers I have listened to. I would never compare any speaker to unamplified instruments. "It won't equal the natural sound of the live piano(asking too much of any speaker) but should come reasonably close . It certainly shouldn't add or impose a edge, bright or thin coloration to instruments.it seems that speakers with upper frequency emphasis are mistakenly given credit for hyper detail, transparency and accuracy." I totally agree! "Ricred, why could you not live long term with the Magico?" I probably could with the right components. I've chosen a speaker that is on the slightly dark side on neutral that does very well in my slightly large 20' X 26' dedicated room. I've listened to many speakers recently. There are speakers that do some things better than mine, but I've decided to stay with what I have. Speakers are about trade-offs and I've found a speaker that really allows me to enjoy music. |
Charles, I will have to disagree on this one. The Magico is the specific variable in question. It isn’t. It is responsible for the ’representation’ of a result of what’s in a very specific chain and a unique room. None of us knows what actually, and to what degree, is resulting and influencing what’s being ’represented.’ To ascribe the differences and lay them at the feet of any of these speakers is a mistake, including the Sopras. The variable is the system, operating as a whole within the confines of the room, with a final interpretation by one listener. If the OP keeps his system and room as is, without change, I can understand him choosing a speaker that fits his needs and preferences based on what he is hearing, the differences between his components, speakers included, and what he ultimately prefers. This thread and many others are far too focused on deconstruction to an individual component or tweak or cable, etc. and ascribing ’characteristics’ to that specific ’element.’ I find this highly problematic. Based on the majority of happy posts addressing the former, most others do not. : ) |
Lots of great comments this morning. Charles is right on about piano. Piano music is where I always start to evaluate the naturalness and musicality of a system, not only of a speaker. But only after a long time living with all the components in a given system, and then a single component swap, preamp, speaker, IC, etc., can one determine the "right or wrong direction of accuracy". No matter what, there's almost always give and take when we finally must make a choice of what we have and what we consider to replace it. +1 David_ten indeed. WC has come a long way from emphasis on blasting to enjoying music at a more relaxed level. When we discover/experience this "change", we have finally assembled a system that was unlike anything we experienced before in our home. There is far too much focus here on which is superior - Magico or Focal. From all I have read, the Magico is very much in the same camp as the SF Futura for which I own. And as I reported here before, after hearing the Futura and Sopra 2 at a huge Chicago dealer showroom, I wanted them both, and yet they were not at all similar in how they portrayed the music. Never before have I enjoyed two speakers so much in a "competitive" setting. But they are each ideal for different kinds of music. So far the only speaker I have heard in my home or elsewhere that is outstanding for all genres of music is the big Sound Lab. And like the Magico, the Futura needs a lot of power to get the woofers going. I have not found an amplifier yet to do the magic in my room like I heard at the dealer......not even close. Had I not experienced that at the dealer, and instead I simply had a pair sent to me to try, I would have no idea their capability. So I am on the hunt to find the right amplifier here. WC will likely need to sweat a little as well to find amps to do the same with the Magico. May I suggest you look into the Symphonic Line Kraft amplifiers. I know I know, everyone is telling you try this or that, it could be your last. But the big SL amp(s) might truly do it for you. |
Ok guys so this morning has been very productive in terms of the overall input I’ve received. Keep them coming ! With that said, I just had a dealer drop off for an in home trial the new SONORE SIGNATURE RENDU SE unit. The goal is to take the laptop out of the equitation and for me to begin streaming from this device while connected via usb to the esoteric k1 dac. We shall see if this indeed makes a difference or not... As far as speakers, let’s see what ends up happening when the dust settles. Things are very interesting right now. |
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Hi David, I don’t believe we disagree as much as you may think. No doubt an audio system is judged as a whole with every component, cable, accessory etc. imparting in various degrees some level of influence. You and I have acknowledged that fact in previous conversations and correspondence. However in this thread WC has listened to the Magico and then replaced it with the Focal and then commenting on the distinctions heard between them. So he is in fact isolating the individual speakers as variables. Now to your point on the other elements of his system, yes they are certainly impacting what is heard by him. Swapping of speakers occurred but the room, front end, cables, rack etc. remained unchanged. Under these circumstances one would hear to a fair degree the different sonic signature of the competing speakers. Granted with the contributions of individual system products. This can’t be avoided. Remove front end and amplifiers and the speakers forever remain silent. David you know that I’m a proponent of the "everything in an audio system matters" philosophy. Change any single part of the system and you change the sound heard, no argument about that. Charles |
@whitecamaross Normally I agree with all of you conclusions, but I think the food analogy is off the rails. I like the Magicos, but the analogy should be to a chef who uses salt in creating a dish. The chef in this case is the recording artist and the sound engineer. If the speakers produce the receipt acurately, it is similar to a dinner who does not add salt to the soup. That is an accurate, but not an analytical, speaker. If you personally add salt to every dish before you even taste it, that is not what the chef who created the dish intended, but it is your preference: you like salt. The chef may be offended, but he is not eating the soup. |
Well, I have to say that
WC being able to play at 85 db and enjoying it, has to do with the BIG MACS. The Mc601. Mcintosh is one of the few that i can actually turn up to 80 db or so and still actually talk to someone sitting next to you. Its because the music takes on an Organic Full Relaxed sound . In other words it isn't screaming or yelling at you .I is not forward or in your face .It is kind of laid back sound ..It gives more room to turn it up without ripping yours ears off. That describes McIntosh ... to me anyway. I guess you either love it or hate it . |
WC, I am looking forward to hear from you regarding the Sonore Signature Rendu SE. I have owned a few of their products ( Microrendu and now the Ultrarendu). You will be shocked by the audio improvements. They have created a mini PC and proprietary OS to minimize typical audio impairments generated by laptops/PC. You should noticed a very black background and increase in instrument delineation/low level details. Your bass will be as solid as it has ever been with the Magico/Focal. |
"May I suggest you look into the Symphonic Line Kraft amplifiers. I know I know, everyone is telling you try this or that, it could be your last. But the big SL amp(s) might truly do it for you." I have the SL Kraft 250 monos and they are incredible with my Revel Salon 2s (which are pigs to drive). And apparently Magico uses them in-house as well for product development and analysis. The one issue for WCSS though is that he likes to be able to flip without taking a beating, so it would be best to go the used/demo route, as they are German and not U.S gear and thus maybe harder to move when reselling. |
Hi everyone, i really will say I’ve learned so much from experimenting with both speakers. Here’s a curveball, I just got an opportunity thrown at me for a pair of Neoliths... I may have to send both the focals and magicos in order to swing this purchase. It’s not 100% done but the noise has started with my connection who said for me to stop messing around with magico and focal and just squash the hell out of both and get the Neoliths because this way I won’t have to question anything. This way I’m playing with a speaker that can rival 100k+ magicos all day long. Hmm .... man oh man. The thought of switching to those gets my mouth watery. |
maplegrovemusic Yes the Odyssey amps are Symphonic Line "clones" of a sort in that they are using designs from Rolf at SL. The owner of Odyssey, Klaus Bunge, has been friends of Rolf's and the distributor of Symphonic Line in North and South America since the mid-90's. All SL purchases need to go through him. Alon at Magico is the one who introduced Jonathan Valin of TAS to Odyssey which led to the magazines reviews and his comparison of the Kismet mono's to his own Solution monos with his Magico's. The Kismet amps can be ordered in one of three different cases with each priced accordingly. |
In a properly set up system we strive for detail and musicality, as well as a balanced 3 dimensional presentation with plenty of air between the instruments and depth in the soundstage. You don’t necessarily have to give up musicality to gain the other attributes and there are multiple paths to achieve this. |
I spent some time last night with the focal and A few relatives who don’t have the same level of experience as we all do. Anyhow, his wife selected the magico as more of a “HD” type of sound. She said it sound as if she heard a little more information. Her husband said he liked the focals because it appears that the magico are “too perfect” like skin without a blemish and felt more trapped by the focal sound. I thought their words were indeed interesting. The focal is indeed a very enjoyable speaker. I mean, i also heard a few things on the focal that were not so obvious in the magico. My friend also mentioned that for sure the focal seemed to have more midrange than the magico which I agree but lets keep in mind that the magico is about balance and not to boost any frequency over the other. |
My friend also mentioned that for sure the focal seemed to have more midrange than the magico which I agree but lets keep in mind that the magico is about balance and not to boost any frequency over the other.Exactly exactly exactly. I came away with this same feeling of the Futura vs. Sopra 2. We become so impressed by the greater clarity, tonal coherency, a multitude of refinements brought on by the more costly speaker, but a return to the Sopra and it's so easy to forget all about that. I would not be surprised to own both as I liked them so much almost equally. Just comes down to the music genre and music vs. HT application. |
As an observer following the comments and listening impressions posted it seems that the Focal is a speaker for the long haul and years of happy ownership. Jafox your comments are revealing and the comments from WC’s non audiophile relatives are noteworthy. Going strictly by comments on this thread it just seems as though the Magico impresses initially but could possibly wear on listeners as time passes onward. Charles |
Charles, and everyone here: THESE ARE MY FINAL THOUGHTS ON MAGICO: I think the magico is a formula 1 race car. It’s beyond well engineered, incredible at all the extremes and think along the lines of you getting inside a formula 1 race car for the first time to drive it. How would it feel? Impressive. Just jaw dropping but can you drive it for 3 hours straight? Can you handle the massive heat in the cabin? The stiff suspension that connects you to the road? The loud exhaust notes ? Can you handle wearing the suit and the helmet for hours on end ? THIS IS EXACTLY THE VERY BEST ANALOGY I CAN GIVE. I CAN NOT THINK OF A BETTER WAY TO DESCRIBE IT. |
Whitecamaross, I completely understand your vivid Formula1 car analogy and it's the gist of what I was inferring from yours and other comments on this thread. For certain this type of speaker will suit some listeners ideally. As any experienced listener would conclude it is a matter of chosen tradeoffs. It has been quite interesting reading your listening impressions of the Magico and Focal speakers as they represent very different flavors of music reproduction. Charles |