I once had a pair of Audioquest Type 6 and a set of low end MIT cables but I can’t remember the model but they were about the same price range as the Type 6 cables. I was bi-amping and would run a tube amp on the high side and a solid state on the low side. With the MIT’s on the high side I was pleased with the sound. One day I switched the cables but kept the amps as they were (Tubes on the highs). The MIT’s were choking the base. I don’t remember the readings but the resistance was too high and it sounded like you had a 100’ piece of #18 zip cord on the woofers. My wife who does not pay attention to audio and who is happy with her Amazon Echo Dot asked me what I did because the bass was noisy. I swapped the back and the problem went away.
now while I think there is a ton of snake oil in the topic of cables, they do make a difference. When running bi-wire I would imagine the same issue would happen. But I always saw it as the MIT cables sucked (at that price point) and I used my AQ type 6 only when I sold my tube amp because I heard no difference with Bi-Wiring with the single amp. I sold the MIT cables and the type 6’a with jumpers worked fine. I am sure if you have a pair of cables that sound better on the HF side that you may find a benefit, but only if they were a detriment to the LF side.
On my Bryston 7B’s running in parallel mode, I did find my woofers behaved positively to the extra current so my new cables are coming bi-wired on both ends. |
Yup …. It’s a well-travelled theme here debated ad nauseam in all the audio forums - it is purely an entirely system dependent issue with no consensus.
Here are two simple contrasting examples in the no-winner debate
(A) VANDERSTEEN supports bi-wiring THEIR speakers (emphasis added)…. Fine.
(B) Both NORDOST and CHORD are just two of the upper-strata cable manufacturers that publish positions that simple 2-2 quality build single runs with matched quality bi-wire post jumpers are
(a) actually cheaper to Buyer all-in, and
(b) will also outperform a lesser quality build 2-4 bi-wire double run of that lesser quality speaker cable run in order to try and meet budget.
(c) Both do not promote bi-wire models anymore, and CHORD does not even make bi-wires anymore. Fine here too.
Simple takeaway:
It’s oft-repeated herein in AGON and all the other audio forums: just filter out all the noise pro AND con: and just experiment personally to see what works in YOUR system (emphasis added again …)
|
Thanks for sharing your experience. I have never done any real careful comparisons. What speakers and amp are you using? |
I'm using Von Schweikert VR-33's and a Raven Blackhawk.
I'm truly of the opinion that bi-wiring may OR may not make a positive difference, it's system dependent and you will only know if you try yourself. |
aka_ca said it best. I went from using jumpers to using two sets of cables and thought I had it all sorted out. Then, I came across a big discount for some speaker cables I always wanted to try out, as I already have their ICs and love them.
Long story short, I'm now using their speaker cables and jumpers and am amazed at the amount of music that was missing. Not just details, air, ambience and the like, but music.
They've broken in faster than any speaker cable I've had and continue to improve. It's one thing to acknowledge that all systems will sound different, but to say all cables sounds the same is insane.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Nonoise, out of curiosity what cables did you wind up with? |
I have always bi-wired my speakers. As pointed out in the post by @akg_ca it is important to use the same quality cables when comparing. As an observation to the OP, assuming you used two runs of the same cable, you may have liked the result at least partly because you presumably have twice the amount of wire going to your speakers. There are some who believe bigger is better wrt speaker and power cables, simply because the wire gauge is bigger. |
For me, bi-wire provided very little improvement in sound. Bi-amp with active crossover made a BIG difference. I advocate spending the money for another amplifier and an active crossover. You can get that setup for the same as an expensive set of speaker cables. I even have that setup in my cars. |
xs1137,
I ended up with Darwin Cables. I’ve been doing this for most of my life and simply can’t wrap my head around what I’m hearing.
From a speaker cable.
All the best,
Nonoise |
I did run the same length of the same wire (Audioquest) for both sets. The difference might be partially or even wholly due to the increase in effective awg. Having just invested in a new turntable and cartridge, I’ll just enjoy the current improvement and any further cable experimentation will have to wait for another time. ;) |
That's exactly what I did. Enjoy what you have and if and when you feel like experimenting, you'll know when. 👍
All the best,
Nonoise |
Of course bi-wiring can be better. The very first thing I ever tried with cables was to shot-gun, essentially run two sets of wire from the amp to the speakers. It seemed this could make no difference since according to the wire is wire brainiacs I had enough gauge and so another set cannot help, but it did. I always whenever possible try and listen and not take anyone's word for anything.
Of course once having proved something is better you still have the question, but is it better for the money? Clearly it was better, but not by much. The wire on the other hand now cost exactly twice as much.
In other words this is like everything else no magic bullet. Instead it is like nonoise said, bi-wire can be better than jumpers, but one good cable with jumpers can be unbelievably better than bi-wire.
One small yet very important detail no one ever seems to mention, the very fact your speakers is even capable of being bi-wired reflects a decision on the part of the manufacturer that you can never undo. Every connection no matter how good is a weakness. A speaker with extra terminals is a speaker designed from the get-go to be weak. Sorry, but it is just a fact. Like, there is a reason none of the really good pre-amps have tape loops and 15 inputs any more, all the really good ones are minimalist with only a few of anything. Because they all know that is money spent for no benefit to sound quality.
Anyway, what this means is that any speaker set up with terminals to be bi-wired cannot ever truly be compared any other way. Because it will always have those jumpers. Essentially what you wind up comparing is not the cables but the jumpers. There are probably about as many jumpers as there are cables. instead of being in a situation where you are able to compare speaker cables one against another and arrive at a solid conclusion you are now in a situation where you never can be sure, there are at least twice as many configurations (see above) and so you have added cost, signal degrading contacts, and expense in order to greatly complicate an otherwise relatively simple choice.
My hunch is the guys who like doing this simply like doing this. Which is fine. For those who haven't tried but are considering, good idea to go into it with your eyes open. |
Fortunately I wasn’t running real expensive cable, so the investment for another set wasn’t too dear, and was worth the improvement.
I’m very happy with my speakers, and if Albert said I should bi-wire, who am I to argue? ;) |
A rather unique and clever way to bi-wire was invented by Jeff at Silversmith with his Fidelium speaker cables. The bi-wire addition is a jumper-like length of cable that connects the four binding posts in a "c". And the single wires connect to half way in the "c". In this way, both sets of posts are connected without a jumper going from one to the other.
And of note, an 8' pair is $1200 and the bi-wire is $175. I replaced a $6K pair of bi-wire cables that are now "junk" in comparison. Many say and could be that they are the "best regardless of cost".
|
If it is recommended it is usually an improvement in some respects but when you go to better cables a lot of the time it will sound better than the biwire option.
|
+2, @akg_ca
OP,
Just filter out the noise and the BS, enjoy the improvements in detail/clarity with bi-wiring. Tannoy is another brand of speakers that advocates and greatly benefits from bi-wiring. |
Biwire is mostly a gimmick because most speakers are not truly biwire for each driver independant wire from the Xover is true biwire,most have quasi biwired meaning a jumper internally top to bottom ,just like the cheap jumper that comes with the speakers , that’s why biwiring
formost speakers is a joke , just make your own jumpers. I bought awg12 Neotech Teflon OCC Copper wire and bought Furutech copper gold spades that have thick dual screws to secure wires in place which
BTW much better then solder which is a poor conductor 5% silver or less. |
+1 fiesta75! I have done that with an active x-over and four mono amps + four speakers (two for L/R mids/treble, two for L/R bass). The improvement in dynamic range and freedom from amp clipping was most noticeable! |
+1 audioman58! A true active x-over with a separate amp for each driver and NO passive x-over is the ne-plus-ultra of speaker design! The Waveform Mach 1 was like that tri-amped with a Bryston active x-over and three Bryston 2-channel amps! |
I have tri-amped, bi-amped and had various setups of bi-wiring. The current setup is a sorta hybrid bi-wire. Works good.
But from a marketing perspective:
bi-wire typically means buy wire
bi-amp means buy amps |
A speaker with extra terminals is a speaker designed from the get-go to be weak. Sorry, but it is just a fact. Wow. Speaker designer MC with "facts." What a tool. |
Though i liked @bpoletti meaning of bi-wire and bi-amp, i understand that is speaker dependant.
Tried bi-wire, tried diagonal and ended up with better jumpers, after trying some, in conventional set up.
|
I bi-wire my Tannoys with two identical audioquest type 4 cables. The tannoys are made for biwiring, not a weakness, but rather because they realize that there is a benefit. Tannoy also added a 5th binding post for ground. I of course use it, grounded to my amp. My alternate cable is my qed silver anniversary xt bi-wire, a great cable. |
@millercarbon, though I agree that extra "connections" are a potential weakness, surely you can see that some designs intended by the manufacturer to be biwired have fewer connections, not more, such as my Von Schweikerts. They are to, totally independent speakers stacked on top of each other, each with their own terminals....another situation to consider is the multiple, internal "connections' that exist in a speaker with multiple drivers....if designed to be biwired, there could be potentially fewer connections in that configuration....SO, though, we do agree that logic doesnt apply, just trust your ears.....my Von Schweikerts are biwired with a custom set of Audio Magic cables, the low end and high end using different design cables each optimized for that frequency range....sound great....
|
b8ujps - I think you might have spelled that word wrong. Here is a guy that has a cheap system that calls out great speaker designers. Who can do this and actually think people will listen to him? IMO, I would listen to the great speaker designers (we all know who some of them are) than to somebody that goes the cheapest way out they can |
The weakness for bi-wire is not the wire, it's the passive crossovers. Get rid of those components and go with only wire between the voice coils and amplifier outputs. Jason +1 for elimination of clipping. I tri-amp, also total elimination of intermodulation distortion. |
@fiesta75.
Question, if there are no components between the drivers and the amp(s), how are you dealing with the crossover points and protecting the drivers? |
Active crossover at each amplifiers INPUTS. Been doing this for 44 years! |
I am not a bi-wire person, but do admit that it is possible that two different wires might have different characteristics for bass vs everything else. Bi-wiring with identicle wires does no more than maybe make up for wires being to small to begin with, or more likely, breaking the corrosion at the terminals, ala twisting you rremote batteries.
|
Have you tried pure silver or silver plated wire? Say 12 gauge or larger? I tri-AMP using silver and it is the best. 10 gauge silver over copper for the bass and midrange, and pure silver 12 gauge for the tweeters. |
