Berlin Philharmonic .
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bdp24, Please tell me you're joking. I know that Bob has his fans, and I acknowledge that he has a body of good work, although not the most recent work, but to say that he made Beck look like a lightweight is comical to me. Beck is young, but already has an amazing body of memorable music. He wouldn't pale in any company. |
For what it's worth, the only words Dylan spoke to the audience were to thank Beck, and to say "He's going to be around a long time", something along those lines and very close to it. Dylan played five nights in a row at a small theater in L.A., with a different opener each night. I have no doubt Dylan hand-picked those openers, and that his comment was spoken in complete sincerity. In spite of that, the comment elicited widespread, muted laughter, including mine. I am well aware of the critical and commercial success of Beck, but I for one don't hear it. I'll concede that it may due to a blindness (deafness?!) on my part. There are a lot of very popular entertainers and entertainers I don't care for, or even vehemently dislike (I don't want to use the "h" word ;-). I didn't like Stevie Ray Vaughan or, after a brief romance, Jimi Hendrix. Yet they are revered by most. I love ABBA and enjoy Shania Twain (for what she is, in spite of the fact that an artist I love, Steve Earle, dismissed her as "the highest paid lap dancer in Nashville". Funny!), many of my colleagues don't. Hey, we don't all have to like and even love exactly the same things! |
Uh, yeah, I know, Geoff. That was my point. Hel-loo! I, like Bob, love Ricky Nelson (he is dismissed as a lightweight by R & R historians), Bobby Vee (whom Dylan played with before leaving Minnesota), and Doug Sahm. Beck? Nope, sorry. Mediocre songs, not much of a singer (c’mon, you know it’s true ;-), haphazard accompaniment. |
I saw Bob play live many times & enjoyed every concert. Whenever I took one of my kids with me they were not nearly as impressed (even though they've been listening to him since literally in the womb), so it could be a generational thing. One of the best shows was right before or just after he released "Tempest". My Morning Jacket & Wilco headlined for Bob on that one. Excellent show all the way through. |
Wow--great responses here. First off, to say Dylan or the Beatles are overrated is absurd--unless the idea is someone says they are god and no one is god and so therefore they are overrated. Also, I'd define "overrated" as an artist that is seemingly getting first tier classification among fans, critics while more deserved of third tier. This is, of course, all opinion. So before I'd throw Dylan, Beatles, Floyd, Stones in the mix I'd start with these candidates: REM U2 (in terms of full body of work. Several albums are evidence of tier one status). Adele. By the way, I think Adele is first tier worthy but her works are all shouty and overblown. She has the talent but her output and artistry are third tier in my opinion. |
What a coincidence---Beck was on Jimmy Fallon tonight. He was wearing a showbiz "outfit" (costume?), including a big hat he was more concerned with keeping on his head than he was with singing. He was also "dancing" around the stage. I don’t know about you, but I don’t care for that. Dancing on stage is what guys like Duran Duran and Wham do, not artists. The "song" he performed was terrible, with a pedestrian chord progression, no melody, and clich’ed lyrics. There were at least ten other people on stage, including a bunch of background singers. Pure showbiz bs. |
Yes, artists should just stand there and do nothing. That is the sure sign of an real artist. And Dylan never even wore makeup, costumes or weird hairdos. I was always fond of the rock star “photo album” that showed Dylan as a hobo roasting wieners over the fire out in the woods somewhere. You wrote, “The "song" he performed was terrible, with a pedestrian chord progression, no melody, and clich’ed lyrics. There were at least ten other people on stage, including a bunch of background singers. Pure showbiz bs.” Are you referring to Beck or Dylan there? Help me out.😛 I hate it when artists try to be entertaining. |
Sheesh, tough crowd. When I say Beck was dancing around the stage, I don’t mean just moving. Did you see him last night? It was vapid, in every way. IMO. Feel free to watch the clip and form your own opinion. If you like the song, his singing, the band and gratuitous choir, his showbiz outfit and stage moves, I won't fault you. |
@bdp24 I agree about Beck - boring pablum. I disagree about dancing though. Look at RHCP - nobody would criticize RHCP as not being artists yet they tear it up at every show. That is showmanship and you can be both an artist and a showman. Duran Duran weren’t that bad - unlike many teen bands they could play instruments and they actually wrote ALL their material except the David Bowie Fame cover they used to do. Simon Le Bon struggled with his voice on tour as many artists do. And Pink Floyd and Genesis light shows and visual imagery didnt make them bad artists IMHO. Just good showmen. Benjamin Zander used to tell me, "play sitting on your left cheek of your bum" - which was his way for saying get lively, get out of your comfort zone, move your body and get inspired because if you are pumped and inspired as a musician then magical things happen. |
For clarity, when I say Beck was dancing around on stage, I don't mean merely moving physically, whether in response to the music or in terms of showmanship. (I think stage performers should put on a show, not just stand there like the Grateful Dead or Phish. Boring!) I mean he was literally dancing, like he was on the dance floor. Both his arms straight out, movin' and groovin', like he had a dance partner. That seems appropriate for what a great songwriter I worked with called "body music" (Michael Jackson, Prince, Madonna, whatever)---that's what that music is for. But for anyone who aspires to be taken seriously as a songwriter, which I thought Beck did? Can you imagine John Lennon, Tom Waits, John Hiatt, Leonard Cohen, or Paul Simon, dancing like they are a Vegas entertainer?! Cheesy, man. |
The OP does seem to be mounting a successful "troll of the year" campaign. For a more balanced assessment of Glenn Gould, read the article at the link here: https://www.theguardian.com/music/2012/sep/20/glenn-gould-wilfully-idiotic-genius |
Leaving aside matters of taste, there's also time and context--the Beatles enjoyed being on the leading edge of the so-called British Invasion. I got lost at around the time of Sgt. Pepper, but still think side 2 of Abbey Road is one of the best LP sides ever put together. When I first saw the videotape of their early U.S. performance at the Washington, DC Coliseum i could not believe how tight they were, instrumentally and vocally in an overpacked arena with no stage monitors playing in what amounted to a basketball court. Dylan has had 9 or 10 lives, I lost count. From folk troubadour and poet to his work with The Band, the Rolling Thunder Review and the later years where he has made several well regarded albums. I'm not a huge fan-- I listen to Blonde on Blonde and Blood on the Tracks occasionally, but I can respect what he's done and what he represents. If you put some of these performers into the context of what was happening (or not) at the time, the reverence may make more sense-- I think Zep got tired toward the end, but in the early years they were able to amp up that electric blues rock thing into something that became a genre unto itself- the precursor of metal and excess - a path that so many other bands followed to success. I dug the early Eagles records- I was very "over" them by the time of Hotel California but Joe Walsh's playing is undeniably good. Ditto, those early Steely Dan records- I stopped after Countdown, but they enjoyed a strong fan base throughout the band's tenure. Some of it too is the point of entry of the listener. Growing up with a band or performer is different than listening to them after the fact- and the new generations who adore bands like Arcade Fire or Phish have a different set of references. I went to hear Dream Theater the other night- had no clue- the fans were all nerds. The band was very LOUD, and most of it was metal, but there was some brilliant guitar work by John Petrucci- enough to make me stay through the show. I've been working my way backwards through the Opeth catalog. I like the later work- it is more accessible-- but I've started to get my head around their earlier stuff- and can now listen to Blackwater Park and not only 'get it' but fully enjoy the growl along with more lyrical acoustic stuff. We have such riches to choose from-- musically, I'm never bored. I went from Starker to Sabbath to some spiritual jazz on Strata-East this morning. All different periods, styles, genres. If I don't like a band, I'll pass, but it's also not unusual for me to come back to them months or years later and appreciate them for what they are. King Crimson is as great an example as any-- their show on the most recent US tour was stunning. If you had asked me a few years ago what I thought of the band, I would have said that "In the Court" was an important prog album but I never really followed them beyond that. I'll even venture into some neo-soul- and older school hip hop, stuff I totally dismissed at the time. Explore, it's an adventure! Too much music to waste time trashing bands you think are hyped. In some ways, everything is hype, but there's jewels there to be (re)discovered. |
Great post, Bill (whart). In the early 2000’s, Dave Alvin (The Blasters and solo) said in an interview that he never "got" Brian Wilson or The Beach Boys, but that he just recently had an epiphany regarding him. I found that funny, as after having become obsessed with Brian upon hearing the Smiley Smile album in 1967 (merely liking The Beach Boys before that, owning all the albums up through 64’s All Summer Long), I found myself finally satiated with his music, now more interested in other styles of music and artists, primarily Americana in Pop and Baroque in Classical. There was a thread a couple of months ago here on Audiogon, in which a younger poster described Brian in terms that revealed he knew him only in terms of the early (1962-4) Beach Boys "Surf, cars, and girls" material. Many people share that perception of him, though it is his Pet Sounds (1966) onward work that is most revered by hardcore BW fans, including Paul McCartney. But some of Brian’s early songs---"In My Room", "Don’t Worry Baby", "I Get Around", etc. are timeless classics. Time is a true test of the quality of music. There is a whole new generation of young songwriters/singers who have discovered the Dylan & The Band Basement Tapes, and are making music in it’s spirit. The material in the those 1967 Basement Tape recordings is leading them back to so much original American music, just as the Blues being made by British bands in 64-68 lead my generation back to the original creators of the music, at least those who managed to get recorded in the 30’s, 40’s, and 50’s. |
The Beatles are overrated by today's standards, and following the flow during their time. In some ways they where innovators and due to their influence at the time, it seems as if they were THE innovators (of the given changes in the music scene. Decent performers, early examples of studio rats, combined with good minds and a good creative mix, tied to market penetration at the time. Somebody had to peak in that window and potentials in market position, and they did. They produced well known memorable works. |
<soma70> Thanks for that. I'll check it out now that I've finally got a digital radio. Still limited to FM in my car, ridiculously difficult to change CD/Radios in a Honda hatchback. If on the PC then its boxing channels on YouTube, Analogue Planet, Daily Audiophile, Bombards Body Language, Steve Hoffmans music forum. Don't listen to music on PC, too much fan noise etc. Anyone opening for Dylan would do well to do a few covers! Richest musical vein in music. Don't mention Adele. Anyone could have had a hit with that. |
The competition at the bottom is tough but surely Velvet Underground are deserved winners. Mind you if soloists are included then that talent free zone, known as Diana Krall would take the podium. What an über-bore, the epitome of tepidness. And her 'Sub-Liberace' piano tinkling (Malcolm Steward's description) could put the most bothersome infant to sleep in minutes. And don't get me started on her back-up band. They have all the enthusiasm you would expect if they were heading for a vasectomy from a blind surgeon. |
We agree to disagree. I mean, I find intellectual and musical satisfaction in Reich's Music for 18 Musicians just as much as I do in Debbie Gibson's "Only In My Dreams". Crap is crap, but music is music. To set some arbitrary "absolute" is the same as saying the world has to reflect you, rather than vice versa. |
If you think a band is overrated, get over it.Why get over it? If they are crap in my opinion then I will say so. Saying an artist is overrated is akin to saying you're somehow better and more discerning than that artist's fanbase and catalog.Non sequitur. Scores well on political correctness, though. Complete narcissistic bollux.If you think other's opinions are overrated, get over it. |
To the OP BTW 1. Led Zeppelin 2. Velvet Underground 3. U2 4. Ramones 5. The Who I don’t think these bands are overated. I don’t think they are good, I think they are exceptional. To me, taste might not prove it, but talent would. I have a friend who hates Bob Marley and the Wailers, to me they are great! He luvs the Doors, I think they are overated..... 🤷♂️ |
