Modern EL34s VS NOS Winged C - and return policies?

@pdreher 

new stock tubes, particularly Tung Sol KT150's take a long time to settle in... at least that has been my experience

I can't disagree with you. My only experience with Tung Sol KT150's was in an overpriced, crappy, US made integrated. It was red. Not that I'm naming names:)

The best they sounded was they day I boxed them up to trade it in.  

Conversely, the best power tubes I've owned were NOS Shuguang 6L6GC "coke bottle" (circa 1970's I believe). They did sound great as soon as they warmed up.

All fun stuff but I've simplified things with a SS amp and tube sources; DAC and phono stage that both use 12AX7's.

@pdreher 

http://www.audiotubes.com/warranty.htm

Does anyone have an opinion on original Tesla EL34s (not JJ) and how they compare to the aforementioned SED Winged C?   I've been running these in my QS MidMonos for several years and love the sound. The original set says 'Made in Czechoslovakia' on the box while a more recent set was revised to 'Made in Slovakia'.  That country split happened in 1993 so not sure the age of these tubes.

Mike Sanders at QS sells them as an upgrade to his standard offering.  Just curious.

@brighamdoc The KT120s and 150s had been in the amp for about 3 weeks listening about 3 hours a night.  Maybe not enough to really be "burnt in".  I may have to give each another month of listening.  I've heard the KT150s can take months to really shine.  They did sound good in the system so it would be interesting to see.

Yep. When I first purchased my last pairs of tube mono amps which run KT150s or KT120s, I kept going back and forth comparing the sound to my local dealer, same amps. He had 300-400 hours on his demos, I had 40,80, 100 on mine. Not the same.   Breaking in, wearing out, smoothing out, whatever you want to think about it - both quads of these sounded nicer after 200-300 hours on them fwiw.  As the time goes on and highs round off just a tad with wear, the midrange and body comes in more, also a little more euphoric now too -  from my experience with them. The difference is noticeable even with the most primitive listening to my FM tuner or CDs or high-res streaming. Not all agree but some good time on them can help change the sound. Wether you like the changes or not is up to you.   

@macg19 while I agree that old stock tubes need minimal burn in and often sounds great from the start, new stock tubes, particularly Tung Sol KT150's take a long time to settle in... at least that has been my experience.

The only way I know how to mitigate losses over purchased tubes would be to do what everyone else does.  Try them out and if you don't like them, you just have to sell them at a loss.  Just explain in your ads that they didn't have the synergy you were looking for in your system.

Also, as was mentioned above the Electro-Harmonix 6CA7 are surprisingly good.  I had a set in my Cary integrated and they were the best of all my tubes, some of which cost considerably more than the EH's.  I'll probably get another set for my other Cary amp, as well.

Besides, tubes take time to burn in and sound optimal... anywhere from 50 to 250 hours depending on the tube.
 

@pdreher This has not been my experience. Not even close. Even if it was, there are 720 hours in a month. Plenty of time to determine if the tube works for you and return it in 30 days assuming that’s what the return policy is.

Awise1961 I do have NOS Mullards in the preamp and RCA clear tops in the power amp. I always get a little rush when the Mullards flash at startups. 
 

pdreher I totally understand your sentiments and in general I agree.  Maybe it's more like test driving a car?  I’m guessing most of these tubes I’d consider returning would be NOS that have probably been put on a tester and maybe even listened to and checked for microphonics before they are shipped. At least I hope they are. They’re also lamped when they’re being matched.  I would only return tubes if the seller understood what I would be doing with them and knew how long I had them running in my amp.

Returning tubes (unless defective) is like returning toothpaste because you don't like the taste.  Besides, tubes take time to burn in and sound optimal... anywhere from 50 to 250 hours depending on the tube.

Def ask Brent

https://www.audiotubes.com/el34.htm

Nice set up! Kevin at Upscale love the PrimaLuma gear. 

Funny, sitting here listening to Bruce Springsteen’s new release Tracks II: The Lost Albums through my little Dennis Had Inspire KT-88 with a pair of St Pete SED EL 34s after rolled out a pair of Winged C 6550s.  Agree the NOS St Pete Svetlana’s are the best!  Have NOS testing RFTs, Teslas (second place), GE and Sovtek 6CA7s, and GL KT-77s. The GLs are very balanced, clean, almost clinical sounding and probably the best new production EL-34 out there, although I haven’t heard the New Sensor Mullard reproduction. I have a pair of Psvane Horizon 300b that Utube reviewers rave about, I found them, well meh in another amp. GL 300BX way better. 

I’ve never heard the NOS Mullards that people rave about, but I found the famous Mullard 12AX7 very “mushy” in yet another tube amp I own.  Telefunken, Amperex, RCA and Raytheon black plate way nicer IMO.

The St Pete EL 34s are very special, so where does that leave you? Scouring eBay, Reverb, USAudioMart and other sites buying and hoarding as may Svet El-34s as you can get your hands on!  Expensive, time consuming, sometimes hit or miss. Beauty in the eye of the beholder though. 

Check out the Electro-Harmonix 6CA7. My amps use 6550/KT88 tubes and I either prefer my NOS Tung Sols or the SED Wing C 6550s. I can understand why you like those Wing C tubes. 

I used the 6CA7 amps in a Conrad Johnson amp I had and prefer those to the Gold Lion KT77's.

I've rolled a few sets of EL34 around. The Gold Lion KT77 are good, but I thoroughly enjoyed the PSvane EL34PH Phillips Holland replica tubes. Still airy detailed, but a bit more meat and dynamics coming from the KT77. Slightly sweeter sounding, but not syrupy or soft at all. To me, the KT77 had a crisp edge to them like a coworker who is always a little overcaffeinated. The EL34PH had a bit more of a Michael Corleone vibe. Just my $0.02.

my only experience with EL34 was with a older Decware Zen SE34i 

Yes, I can confirm that the SED Winged C El34 Tubes, back then were Cryod, had the magic that no other El34 can match. 

have you tried Brent at audiotubes.com? SED winged C EL34 are a beautiful sounding tube. I don't know of any other tubes that can match it. I can hear back then what tubes can do. my speaker were Lowther DX back then, its able to resolve changes in tube rolling and the SED El34 has a big impact

IMO, i dont think there is any other EL34 by other brands that can match SED winged C.  but you can ask Brent from audio tubes

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I always preferred EL34 in my push pulls, Kt's just don't have the magical mids of EL34. I was lucky in that I was using push pulls during time frame the 'good' SET were in production. I have a stash including some Black Sabre, a cryo'd version of these, I'm keeping in case I ever go back to a push pull.

In your EVO300 amp, have you changed out the 12AU7 tubes. It makes a big difference. When I had my pair of EVO400's and ran them as monoblocks, I used vintage mid 60's CIFTE 12AU7's.

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies.

The KT120s and 150s had been in the amp for about 3 weeks listening about 3 hours a night.  Maybe not enough to really be "burnt in".  I may have to give each another month of listening.  I've heard the KT150s can take months to really shine.  They did sound good in the system so it would be interesting to see.

I do think system synergy probably plays a huge factor in what I'm hearing and it will really come down to just rocking and "Rolling" to find another quad.

Again thanks for all the great sources and experience with EL34s.

I'm about three weeks in with a matched quad of Telefunken EL34 TK reissue i got from Viva Tubes. (still on sale BTW). They replaced the Gold Lion KT88's that came with my Cary SLI80HS.

So far I am really digging these new tubes. I hear a much more controlled sound, tighter on the low end, nice smooth mids. High end maybe rolled off a little.. but that may change once they're burned in a little more. 

Before you give up, remember: Tubes do require burn-in time! You don't say whether you've done this but it's been my experience that you can't simply plug in a set of tubes and go.

Have you done any burn in? If so, how long? Also, Prima Luna has a reputation for not being hard on tubes. It would imply to me proper burn in would take longer?

Happy listening.

Depends on the amp/speaker combo but I loved Siemans East Germany EL34s in an Audion Sterling Integrated; what a great little amp. Bite the bullet & go NOS, they're worth it in many ways

The Svetlana EL34 Winged C was my go to tube in my Quicksilver Mid Mono Monoblocks. I tried the Genelex KT77  and unlike another poster, did not prefer it to the Winged C. It was more clinical sounding.

One new production tube I did like a lot was the Psvane EL34PH. It is their attempt to copy the original Phillips Metal base EL34. It became my tube of choice for my amps. They also make an EL34UK that is modelled after a Mullard EL34.

I also have some of their Horizon KT88 tubes that I am currently using which I like a lot.

 I know I sound like a Psvane fanboy but after many years where Russian tubes were the go to tubes because of their availability and Chines tubes were mostly junk, I feel the tube landscape has changed a lot in the last few years. That being said, I can't speak re reliability long term although I've not had any tube failures with these yet. Also, they take a fair bit of time to break in.

Agree the Genalex Gold Lion KT-77’s are the best I have heard in new production.  Not heard Ray’s but others have been pleased by them.  

Call Andy at vintagetubeservices.com . He will get you a pair of NOS EL34 that will make you cry. If you want to do one better, sell the Primalunas and get a Leben or an Audio Note UK. It will be a huge step up.

Good Luck

+1 @salectric The Gold Lion KT77 is the best modern EL34 variant I've heard by a country mile.

I’m the wrong guy to ask, because I don’t hear that imaging thing in the concert hall, so would never tune for it. But why not just spring for a quad of your favorite tube? No reason to roll the dice, and the return thing no longer an issue, unless defective.  https://www.tubedepot.com/products/sed-winged-c-el34?v=6838&srsltid=AfmBOorFIdU2LCNRe1gc-qZmDkapwlhQLxEib59F6120JJ30Mk1JXDxaw20

Given the current prices of real Svetlana (St. Petersburg) EL34’s I’d put my coin in Mullard XF2’s from a reputable, not ripoff, dealer.

DeKay

My favorite tube in the EL-34 family is the Genalex KT-77 (reissue).  It’s a well -balanced, warm -sounding, detailed and dynamic tube.  I preferred it to the SED Winged C which was more on the bright and lean side, although with excellent speed and detail.

caveat: My quads of the Winged C and Genalex KT-77 are both from roughly 2010.  Newer versions of the KT-77 may not the same.

Cleeds I understand your sentiments and pretty much agree - however - if I drop $1,000 on tubes and am disappointed in them it would be nice to have some way to mitigate the losses.  I’d rather pay a restocking fee then hope someone would buy them off me if they disappoint.  

Yogi looks like Tubedpot has some SEDs in stock - seem too cheap to be the real deal.  I called them and spoke with someone who said if I wasn't happy with the sound I can return them.  

Or do I take that money and get some cool new tubes like the Ray Tubes Select or Reserve?

Thanks for your responses.

yogiboy

Give TubeDepot a call. I have returned tubes to them with no hassle ...

"Items are ordered, received and used (with apparent use), then returned to us (Non-Defective Apparent Use Return), then the items will be sent back at the customer’s expense."

On returns they accept, there's a restock fee:

"The restock fee serves to insure that the product we restock meets our manufacturer's quality standards. Returned product is often sent back to the manufacturer for quality verification or replacement. The restock fee also gives our customers peace of mind that their tubes and / or parts have not been 'tried out' by a previous customer.

Give TubeDepot a call. I have returned tubes to them with no hassle!

Welcome to TubeDepot!

brighamdoc

If I buy a new set of premium tubes and they sound fine but just don’t have the magic I’m after, can I usually return them?

Unless there's a defect, I'm not aware of any vendor that would allow the return of vacuum tubes. I'm not sure I'd want to do business with anyone who would.