That's a pretty good way of describing all the ways vinyl kicks butt on digital. Michael Fremer still holds first place with, "There's more there there" but you did just fine. That's the reality. Vinyl is so far beyond digital MF is even able to record the sound of different cartridges on files and play them for people who would never otherwise have the opportunity to hear these super top of the line carts. That's what digital is good for. Comparing stuff. Convenience. Background. That kind of thing.
The minute you stop all that and want to just enjoy music you simply change to the medium made for listening to music. That's all. |
barrista0611 Looking for a vinylesk sounding DAC If you looking for a "vinyl sounding" dac, go to a Lapizator TDA1541 NOS tube dac, not my cup of tea though. Cheers George |
To get an analog sounding system, go with all tubes in your chain.
The
Schiit Bifrost 2 is a very decent entry-level DAC. I used to own one. A Lampizator would give you a significant improvement, but also at a significantly increased cost.
The Doge 7 DAC (at ~$1,400 new) would be a good choice that is (cost wise) in between the Schiit and Lampi.
Disclosure: I had owned the Doge 8 preamp at one point and was impressed with its performance, although it is highly susceptible to tube rolling. To improve on it, I ended up replacing it with a Croft RIAA phonostage and a Don Sachs linestage (at 3x the cost).
As for amps, I am partial to tubed monoblocks personally. Tons to choose from, and in every budget range.
Good luck in your search. |
Oh, I didn't know Fremer's article back from 2000 but it's a good read. For me the main question is if that is still the truth after 20 years. DACs have been improved a lot and most of them claim to sound "analog" (while just some do).
But my concern is going further as I think sounding analog is just a part of sounding vinylish.
George, what's wrong about the Lapizator TDA1541 NOS DAC?
Nordicnorm, thanks for suggesting the doge dac. I did quite a lot 6SN7 tube rolling with my preamp and had fun with it but after all I don't think the specific vinyl sound can't be reached through tubes. Yes, regarding a full-bodied, warm, lush sound full of texture, but no in respect of all the other aspects I mentioned. I don't wanna miss tubes in my system but as I am already using some in my preamp I'll be looking for a pure DAC for the moment.
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George, what's wrong about the Lapizator TDA1541 NOS DAC?
I liked hi-end vinyl when I had it, but today to me good discrete hi-end R2R to me is better in every way. I have mimic'd vinyl to a good degree with my digital rig by bleeding L to R together (switchable) to come down from 120db channel separation to vinyls best of 30db at 1khz (below and above that it's more like 10-20db). What this did was to give me ''similar" sound to what my vinyl had. It kind of monized the old "left right ping pong'' sounding cd Beatles ect era digital, and richened it up through the bass and lower mids. But for today's digital cd recordings I was back at 120db channel separation no question. Cheers George |
Where you hear MORE elasticity, MORE tonal density, MORE plankton, MORE
concentration to the point, MORE light-footedness and MORE palpability ... I hear MORE wickedly high noise floor, MORE compression, MORE distortion, MORE loss of low level detail, MORE loss of tonal balance, MORE fake "space" coupled with LESS instrument separation, and more unwanted/unnatural sibilance. I will give you that the vinyl version has more of a "live" character to it, but I couldn't get past the artifacts to the point of it grating on my ears. But that's me ... and you are you. When you grow up with that sound, and that becomes "natural" to you, then that is what you are going to gravitate to. I grew up spinning records, but spent too much time listening to what is coming off the microphone, so what sound natural to you, sounds unnatural to me. The fake air of a NOS DAC running at CD sampling rates, the added distortion of a tube stage, and if you could couple it with George's suggestion for channel mixing to more center the image (gives a sense of immediacy), and you may capture much of what you love about vinyl. Some friends/acquaintance have played around with a bit of compression in the digital domain as well, but not aware of any players intentionally doing that. BUT when listening to streamed vinyl I still feel the need for action - I
just want EVERY track from quobuz to sound like this. Please take just
some seconds and listen to this:
https://musicandvinyl.blogspot.com/2020/08/haruomi-hosono-from-aegean-sea.html?m=1
There
is just MORE elasticity, MORE tonal density, MORE plankton, MORE
concentration to the point, MORE light-footedness and MORE palpability
(compared to a "disdainful" quobuz stream). Do you know what I mean? |
Just going on the many reviews other impressions I’ve read, if I were you I’d gravitate toward a tubed R2R NOS DAC such as the Audio Mirror Tubadour Mklll SE, etc. I believe several companies (AM, MHDT, Denafrips?) offer trial periods, and I think that’s the way to go. Best of luck in your quest.
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The Tubadour MKIII SE is a wonderful sounding DAC. I upgraded to a PS Audio DirectStream DAC. It sounds very, very close to my vinyl rig. |
The fake air of a NOS DAC running at CD sampling rates
Curious - what makes it 'fake' ? |
Just going on the many reviews other impressions I’ve read, if I were you I’d gravitate toward a tubed R2R NOS DAC such as the Audio Mirror Tubadour Mklll SE, etc. I believe several companies (AM, MHDT, Denafrips?) offer trial periods, and I think that’s the way to go. I agree, go with a R2R NOS Dac if you want a more organic, analogue-like presentation. A tube stage adds a sense of realism to music. "Fake air?" All I hear with my Audio Note Dac is a natural sounding top-end with air and space between instruments. |
I agree with oldschool 1948. Have Trubadour connected to cary audio sl80 f1. Play 70% vinyl and am very impressed with sound quality of the Dac. PS look at past conversations here. There was great insights on competitive comparisons between the top 5 dacs below $3k.
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George's suggestion for channel mixing to more center the image (gives a sense of immediacy), and you may capture much of what you love about vinyl.
Not with todays magic digital, only like I said with those bad early CD that had ping pong left and right sounds. Todays cd blow them away, and there's absolutely no need to bleed left into right, as with the channel separation of 120db you have it all and more with proper sound stage, that even goes outside the speakers now. Which I remember never ever did, no matter how good the vinyl was. |
@barrista0611
well implemented digital can sound somewhat 'vinyl like'... but it will never sound like vinyl as vinyl has its own unique and sympathetic colorations (not mention issues)
but i would agree with posters below suggesting various r2r type dacs, and ones with tube buffering of analog outputs, they head in the tonal direction you seek - there are Delta Sigma dacs and ones w/o tubes that do this as well...
you do not mention your budget for the dac - if you stay in the schiit bifrost range of cost it will be hard to get there
you need to be at least in the $750-1000 price range to get a very nice somewhat tonally denser ’analog sounding’ dac
from the list of gear you mention you seem to be a headphones guy -- there is tremendous discussion on mhdt, audio mirror, denafrips, etc etc on the couple well subscribed hp boards |
May I suggest the ExoGal Comet? I think very vinyl sounding |
Fake -- Lack of a reconstruction filter in a typical NOS DAC allows high frequencies (aliased images of the original signal from the stair step) to pass which when they hit things like tube amps and speakers with high distortion, they generate frequency components in the audible range that are a mix of aliased images with frequency shift (IMD), random distortion products, and signal modulated noise. While sounding complex and awful, some people like the way it sounds. The general description is "airy". "Fake air?" All I hear with my Audio Note Dac is a natural sounding top-end with air and space between instruments. No, what you think you hear is "natural". It is not, no more than vinyl sounds "natural", no more the analog tape is "natural". They are not natural, they are colored. You just happen to like that coloration and associate that with natural. Maybe there will come a time when most "audiophiles" will accept that what they like, and hence what they attribute as "natural" and accurate is anything but, at least if they put vinyl or tape on a pinnacle. It is not the pinnacle of accurate sound reproduction. Digital is. Very few audiophiles have heard the difference between a live microphone, a digital loop and a tape loop, let alone the eventual vinyl cut. And that is completely okay. It does not matter if you prefer the vinyl cut. All that matters is you like what you are listening to. However, describing it as natural is wrong because it is not. Here, have a read: http://recordinghacks.com/2013/01/26/analog-tape-vs-digital/I will excerpt a pass from the article, "It is my belief that much of the pain of switching over to digital
recording was due to the tools that engineers had mastered for analog
recording. For instance, applying EQ and compression (or no compression)
to tape to make up for the color that the tape added didn’t sound so
great when recording to digital. Bright FET microphones and harsh
transistor preamp tones became rounded off in a pleasing way on tape,
and by the 100th mix pass, the high-end was rolled off and the
transients smeared so much that the final mix sounded phat, warm and
fuzzy. It took experienced engineers a minute (or years) to
gather their thoughts, re-examine their tools and learn how to take
advantage of the clarity, quiet, and unforgiving purity of digital
recording. At that point recordists moved towards super-fast,
ultra-clean and high-gain preamps and transparent compression. Low cost
digital processors stopped using transformers and tubes, which lowered
costs and also lowered THD, while widening frequency bandwidth specs from DC to light. We had finally found it: perfect, clean, sterile audio! |
11-11-2020 8:26pmJust going on the many reviews other impressions I’ve read, if I were you I’d gravitate toward a tubed R2R NOS DAC such as the Audio Mirror Tubadour Mklll SE, etc. I believe several companies (AM, MHDT, Denafrips?) offer trial periods, and I think that’s the way to go. Personally, the best DAC to me is the PS Audio DirectStream DAC Sr. Easily upgradable, very flexible inputs, and a volume control with 20dB attenuator if required. It is as close to Analog Vinyl like LP playback as you will get. TDA1541 chips are more than 33 years old ! So that's a no go in my book and I've heard those DAC's. Denafrips does not do a 30 day trial so they are out as well. I did a head to head comparison between The Terminator and the PSA DSSr. There were times where I didn't know which DAC I was listening to but on certain music, the PS Audio DAC edged out the Denafrips especially in the upper midrange (where I personally am more sensitive) |
Fake -- Lack of a reconstruction filter in a typical NOS DAC allows high frequencies (aliased images of the original signal from the stair step) to pass which when they hit things like tube amps and speakers with high distortion, they generate frequency components in the audible range that are a mix of aliased images with frequency shift (IMD), random distortion products, and signal modulated noise. While sounding complex and awful, some people like the way it sounds. The general description is "airy".
Thanks, not at all what I mean by 'air' then. Glad we've settled that. |
EAR Yoshino Acute Classic is the most analog sounding CD/DAC I know and in THAT sens outperform Lampizator and probably almost any other DAC. It’s relatively cheap in the world of top gear. It may lack some precision and details, compared to Lampi, but you’ll get the most emotional and analog listening experience you can get from the digital source. |
Vinyl sounding? Take the DAC of the month, record yourself eating Rice Krispies, fry an egg in the background, and you are done.
if you love the sound of vinyl so much, why are you wasting your time here? Why not, you know, just sit and listen to some petroleum slabs spun on a platter that you hope plays at a stable speed with a sewing needle slashing the grooves to transmit some vibrations and call it a day? If you truly believe vinyl is so superior why are you trying make digital sound like vinyl? Do you also go to Burger King and expect to get Filet Mignon?
I’ll take the increased dynamic range and drop dead quiet backgrounds of digital. God forbid I get a DAC that generates the illusion that I am hearing what I gladly abounded 35 years ago |
Analogue sound from a dac requires superior clocking. Whatever you do, get a dac with a 10m BNC clock input. The cheapest 10m clocks can be had on Alibaba for $100. Seriously, it‘s the single most important factor in choosing a dac. |
No, what you think you hear is "natural". It is not, no more than vinyl sounds "natural", no more the analog tape is "natural". They are not natural, they are colored. You just happen to like that coloration and associate that with natural.
Maybe there will come a time when most "audiophiles" will accept that what they like, and hence what they attribute as "natural" and accurate is anything but, at least if they put vinyl or tape on a pinnacle. It is not the pinnacle of accurate sound reproduction. Digital is. Very few audiophiles have heard the difference between a live microphone, a digital loop and a tape loop, let alone the eventual vinyl cut. And that is completely okay. It does not matter if you prefer the vinyl cut. All that matters is you like what you are listening to. However, describing it as natural is wrong because it is not. All home audio systems are coloured in some way, whether it be from cables, component design, op amps, transformers, etc. You can stay in the digital domain but eventually the sound will be played through the speakers which have their own sonic signature, not to mention the room's influence. The goal of most audiophiles is to reproduce music as close as possible to the original recording and the intent of engineer and producer. And "air" is a desired element in music recording and playback; eg, classical, jazz, choral. |
You need a NOS R2R dac to achieve the vinyl like effect in all the positive ways .
I have personal experience of this . My new Sonnet DAC is less vinyl like than my Metrum Hex - which is for sale on this site - Only this type of dac comes up to the standard you are looking for. The Sonnet has different type of clarity possibly because of its volume control. |
All those suggestions are great people, thank you!!
I already own an R2R DAC, so now I'll be looking at
- NOS R2R
- Reconstruction filter
- superior clocking
As my budget is around 2,5k I will definitely have an eye on the Lapizator TDA1541 NOS, Tubadour MK III SE, Audio Note 2.1 and the new Soekris DAC 2541.
Still open to other options of course!
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you really also need to look at what you are converting analog to digital with as well as the reverse conversion.
You may want to consider the Denafrips line of DACs; great bang for the buck.
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Since you're open to other options get a Topping DX7 Pro , ditch everything else and implement some software filters on your computer to give vinyl sound. I can't believe all this pile of components for headphones. |
I own the AMTubadour III with resistor and cap upgrade. Use it into a Aric Audio 6sn7 tube preamp driving a SS amp. Tubes are the way to go with digital. |
Hi @barrista 0611
Streaming means you're ultiamtely limited to the quality of the stream. That said, my experience comparing my own TT (Simon Yorke S4+arm) to my dacs (MSB Select-II & Ideon Ayazi) using an external HDD rarely yielded comparable sonic results -- and, going against the grain here, both DACs came close.
In this regard, either my Ayazi, or a Benchmark or similar could do the trick within your budget limit.
My brief experience: I wanted natural-sounding instruments, clarity, and explosive dynamcis. No compression on large passages - classical orchestra for example.
R2R: I think that many R2Rs offer a romantic sound (i.e. naturalness coupled with a drop at frequency extremes) unless you go for the top of the line which are very expensive. IMO they will not satisfy your requirements. (My MSB probably would and you could even use its inbuilt pre as well--but at an exhorbitant price).
A well-designed, chip-based DAC like the ones I mentioned (there are many others of course) along with one reclocker or two (daisy-chained) will offer surprisingly good sound.
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NONE.
Like trying to get a banana that tastes like a lemon.
The ONLY thing you can do is pay up for the digital that sounds best to you. We can’t do it for ya.
And then please try to be happy with the universe of fantastic recordings that are only available outside of our solar system of analogue.
Give up on trying to find a wheel that is a perfect circle. Not gonna happen.
Ever.
I'm happy with both.
BFD |
audio2designWhere you hear MORE elasticity, MORE tonal density, MORE plankton, MORE
concentration to the point, MORE light-footedness ... Huh? Elasticity? Plankton? I don't hear those things at all when listening to LP....
I hear MORE wickedly high noise floor, MORE compression, MORE
distortion, MORE loss of low level detail, MORE loss of tonal balance,
MORE fake "space" coupled with LESS instrument separation, and more
unwanted/unnatural sibilance ... Huh? Wickedly high noise floor? Fake space? Unnatural sibilance? I don't hear those things from LP either.
As for compression: I've found most CDs are much more compressed than their LP counterparts.
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The MHDT Orchid has a lot of good reviews for it's musicality.
I had an MHDT Pagoda DAC. It's sound is detailed but the Jupiter HT caps @ 1uF made it sound musical with an even balance of detail. It was a perfect combination.
Swap out cheap output coupling caps in any DAC for Jupiter HT caps.
VCap ODAM will make the soundstage more expansive with higher resolution.
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@barrista0611 https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/thinking-about-getting-a-r2r-dac?page=3that thread will help you... a lot of info you want gets covered in it in the thread, you will note that there is one person who got highly disruptive and argumentative in the thread, he was booted after complaints by several longstanding members, thus the numerous notes of deleted threads and some threads calling him out you should also note that person is back here, with a new usersname, in this thread and in the other i referenced... he/she is the only person who is repeatedly argumentative (this is fake, that is fake etc etc), posts several replies in succession... won’t name names here... read through and it will be obvious this having been said, the reading, if you are patient, will yield useful info to you as you upgrade dacs good luck |
Cleeds,
The quote with Plankton in it was me quoting someone else.
My comment about wicked high noise floor, etc. was in relation to the link the op posted. That is the sound he wants. I stand by my comments the recording at that link. CD is not inherently compressed. If it is, that was a mixing/mastering decisions whereas on vinyl that was often a necessity.
Vinyl is a "sound" and it is desired by many audiophiles especially those that grew up with it and young people increasing feeling less involved and a less and less tactile world. However, you would be hard pressed to find a serious recording engineer who went through the transition from 80's analog to 2000's digital who will not tell you that digital sounds like what comes off the microphone, tape and digital do not. I mean people who worked in mid-high end studios with access to good quality analog and digital gear. That does not mean they will like the digital sound better. It just means it is accurate.
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Honest question ... I've heard this many times before that the ultimate goal is to recreate the recording environment and/or the artist and recording engineer's intent. Is there an inside track on which I'm not that allows some people to figure out the exact intent? I sure can't.
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@jjss49 Thanks a lot for the link to that very similar thread. Really helpful and even more to consider. I will look further at the units from MHDT and Holo Audio.
Yeah its obvious. He should try to meditate a bit ... ;] |
Can someone comment on orchid VS pagoda? I used to have a Lector Strumenti CDP 707 that was using PCM 1704 with a pair of ECC 81 tubes. Loved it a lot but I'd like a DAC with a different chip now which leads me more to the orchid. |
Talk to user @grannyring about the modifications that he performs on the Orchid DACs. I highly recommend that that you have it modified by him if you purchase one.
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Can someone comment on orchid VS pagoda? Member @teajay has written nice reviews of both, and if I recall he said if you run balanced the Pagoda offers substantial improvements. I don’t remember if he compared the Pagoda to the Audio Mirror Tubadour Mklll SE, but that would be an interesting comparison IMO. Hope this helps. |
User @decooney has a lot on knowledge about the Orchid vs. Pagoda. |
@barrista0611 .. I've not heard the Orchid so I can't comment on the sound quality vs. the Pagoda but I've had my Pagoda for 2.5 years now. I'll comment only on one aspect of the MHDT line, the Pagoda is the only DAC in their line able to process 24/192 without down-sampling. Of course, this may not be important to you, but it is to me. FWIW I love the sound quality of this DAC, which replaced my Chord Qute EX DAC. |
I have experienced and owned dozens of DAC's. I always come back to R2R based designs with tubes. I have the rare opportunity to have an Audio Note DAC 5 Special and it has been modified as well. It has a different receiver chip based on the Xmos chip so it can natively take up to 384k on USB or 768k over I2s as well as stacked AD1865 chips. It is an end of life type of experience. Tubes without output transformer designs are definitely a step backward but those can approach magic just not like an OPT design that needs no brick wall filter as the OPT does that for you. |
I find it amusing how so many "audiophiles" dig in on one or the other medium of music delivery as being superior and the other being useless.
I believe that both digital and analog are amazing once the right formula is found. The right combination of components can/will produce magic. Shutting oneself off to one particular medium because of preconceptions, misconceptions, bad experiences and the like is the definition of ignorance. For many (most?), ignorance is easy, convenient and comfortable. There is pain and inconvenience in discovery and enlightenment. There is also a lot of joy in it, if you're willing to keep an open mind. |
I fully agree with 'Twodolphins", the EAR Dacute Classic really provides an analogue sound. I used one for about two years. Prior to that I had the EAR Dac 4. The Dac 4 was marginally superior to the 'classic' but the functionality of 'classic' sold it for me.
I also have a Tubadour III SE .... absolute winner especially for the price
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I see people on this & other threads really trashing NOS DACs on technical grounds. I also see certain measurement-centric (vs listening-centric) audio sites trashing NOS DACs.
If you really want to get closer to vinyl/analog sound while staying in the digital realm, the surest way I know is to get yourself a solid NOS DAC. My 2nd NOS DAC is the MHDT Labs Orchid w/tube buffer circuit (which I rolled an older tube into). I don't know & don't care how it measures--I do know that it succeeds in shedding the known digital nasties better than any previous DAC in my system. In the side system I have a multibit DAC (Audio GD DAC-19) which, despite also getting trashed by reviewers, sounds quite decent to me.
Understand, though--NOS digital may lack the familiar digital nasties (edgy/insistent upper midrange & treble; overly "dry" acoustic; harmonically thin notes; impactful but tonally parched bass; on and on)--but it isn't equivalent to really good vinyl. Digital & vinyl simply don't sound the same.
In fairness to digital, it's quite easy to use a peaky/pricey moving coil cartridge with the wrong phono preamp to arrive at sound nearly as nasty as trad/delta-sigma digital. Still different from digital, but nasty. |
Digital is never going to sound like vinyl. It just isn't. There's no needle, it's not analogue.
So you bought a Tesla, but you wish it sounded like a Ferrari. There's no cylinders, pistons or exhaust. But, you could play a recording through the stereo. Will it sound like an engine? Yes. Is it the same? No way.
You can't get blood from a turnip. This is just how it is. |
@snackeyp I find it amusing how so many "audiophiles" dig in on one or the other medium of music delivery as being superior and the other being useless.
I believe that both digital and analog are amazing once the right formula is found. The right combination of components can/will produce magic. Shutting oneself off to one particular medium because of preconceptions, misconceptions, bad experiences and the like is the definition of ignorance. For many (most?), ignorance is easy, convenient and comfortable. There is pain and inconvenience in discovery and enlightenment. There is also a lot of joy in it, if you’re willing to keep an open mind well said, and i agree wholeheartedly earlier this year when covid started and being mostly shut in, i undertook the challenge of learning and implementing streaming into my system, which was cd and lp based up to that point - my question was can i get streaming to sound as good as cd or analog it has been a long, but fun and interesting journey - some 8-10 streamers, 25-30 dacs... the short answer is yes, streaming sounds every bit as good, mostly due to good sounding dacs the whole experience streaming is such a massive upgrade to only listening to cd’s and lp’s on hand -- simply because streaming lets you discover new music so effortlessly... sooooo happy now... i listen more than ever and enjoy it more than ever |
i listen more than ever and enjoy it more than ever Precisely. And with a really good DAC, even better. |
@jjss49 Just out of curiosity - which dac did you finally choose based on your corona-phase-shootout?
@snackeyp I was reading your review of the Holo May. Excellent write-up, absolutely enjoyed it. As the May is not my budget - are you able to compare to the Spring 2?
Anyone using the Spring 1, L2? |
Simple! Get an old DBX unit and set it to decrease dynamic range, as if recording a cassette. This will work, well, except for missing the tics and pops.
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What's the deal with this live microphone feed, doesn't it still come through speakers or headphones and amplifiers. I think all audio equipment colors the sound. |
Not since the early 90s have I declared that vinyl was superior to digital. However, to be so cost more. Digital has come along way since then, and as it improved, the cost differential between vinyl and digital has increased. Having tubes in the system does compliment. My Audio Mirror Tubadour III DAC opened up the soundstage, improved imaging, added air, and increased resolution in my system. As did my Aric Audio Special all tube preamp. |
