Mhdt Constantine if you can find one.
Looking for a vinylesk sounding DAC
I cannot say I wasn’t satisfied with my system.
Laptop (Quobuz Studio) - > Schiit Bifrost 2 - > Ocellia Reference RCA - > Werner Acoustics, Selene (active tube preamp using two VT-231 from RCA) - > passive preamp - > Ocellia Reference RCA - > First Watt F6 dual mono custom built - > HEDD Audio’s "Heddphone" / Hifiman HE 4
From the beginning I started to built it I had a quite concrete idea of what it should sound like in the end: vinylesk without using vinyl. It took me a while to get there and now I really thought I got it: Due to the F6 the outcome is brutally powerful and incredibly fast while the tube stage adds lots of body, depth and a rich organic undertone. Finally the RCA’s from Ocellia were adding the fine raffinement and a nice holographic soundstage. Nothing smears, in just every situation everything stays transparent, well controlled/articulated and the separation is just excellent.
BUT when listening to streamed vinyl I still feel the need for action - I just want EVERY track from quobuz to sound like this. Please take just some seconds and listen to this:
https://musicandvinyl.blogspot.com/2020/08/haruomi-hosono-from-aegean-sea.html?m=1
There is just MORE elasticity, MORE tonal density, MORE plankton, MORE concentration to the point, MORE light-footedness and MORE palpability (compared to a "disdainful" quobuz stream). Do you know what I mean?
I still think and hope a new dac could be the nirvana-solution. But which one would manage the job to sound just like vinyl (99% would be ok...)?
Happy to hear your suggestions!
Laptop (Quobuz Studio) - > Schiit Bifrost 2 - > Ocellia Reference RCA - > Werner Acoustics, Selene (active tube preamp using two VT-231 from RCA) - > passive preamp - > Ocellia Reference RCA - > First Watt F6 dual mono custom built - > HEDD Audio’s "Heddphone" / Hifiman HE 4
From the beginning I started to built it I had a quite concrete idea of what it should sound like in the end: vinylesk without using vinyl. It took me a while to get there and now I really thought I got it: Due to the F6 the outcome is brutally powerful and incredibly fast while the tube stage adds lots of body, depth and a rich organic undertone. Finally the RCA’s from Ocellia were adding the fine raffinement and a nice holographic soundstage. Nothing smears, in just every situation everything stays transparent, well controlled/articulated and the separation is just excellent.
BUT when listening to streamed vinyl I still feel the need for action - I just want EVERY track from quobuz to sound like this. Please take just some seconds and listen to this:
https://musicandvinyl.blogspot.com/2020/08/haruomi-hosono-from-aegean-sea.html?m=1
There is just MORE elasticity, MORE tonal density, MORE plankton, MORE concentration to the point, MORE light-footedness and MORE palpability (compared to a "disdainful" quobuz stream). Do you know what I mean?
I still think and hope a new dac could be the nirvana-solution. But which one would manage the job to sound just like vinyl (99% would be ok...)?
Happy to hear your suggestions!
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I finally found an excellent solution with a LAB 12 DAC 1 Reference. Got a demo unit since a few days which performs THAT perfectly close to vinyl that I’m about to say the search is over. The only thing that still is on my mind is the Metrum Onyx/Jade. As metrum told me there will be a black friday discount on the Jade - 20%! Call me interested! Is someone able to do a quick comparison between the LAB 12 and those Metrums? |
relaks ... Any stream is worse than a dedicated server ... Streaming is always susceptible to network lag, latency, interferences, and mains noise.It sounds like you have some pretty serious ISP and/or network issues. Most of them should be resolvable. You may want to consider using a caching streamer, such as Aurender. That might cure some of your streaming issues. |
Really? What streaming service do you think offers better SQ?Why? Aren't the two files identical?1. I don't think there is a service with much better sound quality, that's why I am using Qobuz as well. Some say Tidal SQ is marginally better. I can't vouch for that. But I never meant Qobuz particularly sucked. Any stream is worse than a dedicated server. 2. Files are identical, but the way they are delivered are different. Streaming is always susceptible to network lag, latency, interferences, and mains noise. Have you noticed how much effort top servers manufacturers put into their dual, sometimes triple power supplies, into vibration control? Now look at your router. |
Thanks relaks! In the meantime I "accepted" that absolutely no dac will exactly sould like vinyl, not just due to the physical process of a needle touching an LP. So I guess I need to "refresh" my goal and would like to get as close as possible. For the moment I think a good NOS dac is the way to go for me. The Border Patrol definitely got my interest but I`m mainly looking at solid state dacs as my preamp uses tubes already and I spent quite a while with tube rolling. Black Friday: good idea - hopefully Metrum will join in! Laptop as a source sucks, I know. I am already heading out for a PI2AES. |
First and foremost, Qobuz stream SQ is just adequate, no more than that. I guess you have already bought some Qobuz music. If not, download a good hi res file from them. It should sound way better compared to the streamed one. If you don’t hear a significant difference, the digital part of your system could be seriously improved. By definition no DAC can can sound like vinyl, but something like Border Patrol DAC would be a big step in the right direction. It has a rich organic sound. (I just checked: it’s on Black Friday Sale atm with 20% off). Next (in fact it should go first) - your laptop. Laptop will never sound as good as a dedicated server, full stop. Elasticity, density, palpability you have mentioned - it all will be improved with a good server, along with dynamics, freq. extremes and sheer blackness of the background. I am using Zen. |
Listen to the wyred for sound 10th anniversary dac,it's the warmest most analog sounding that I've ever had in my system and heard. I put it up against the Sim audio $15,000 dac and it left the Sim audio in the dust it was so much better in every area. Cost is $4,500 and I believe it'll go up against anything on the market. |
@barrista0611 That’s - even for 3 systems - an impressive list (with some candidates I’m interested in), thanks a lot for your effort! Out of those you have kept: which one do you think could match best in my case, if you take as a basis that I prefer really rich, organic and thick textures in the mids and an overall fine articulation with a tactile and palpable grip of the bass while I don’t care for the absolute last resolution in the treble region? It’s not that I don’t like an extensive resolution in the treble too as I see how much this is related to a holographic soundstage but I’m a bit sensitive in that region. You are a 100% headphone listener? I am looking at your opening post. If so, my experiences are only partially applicable as I very rarely listen to HPs. So I value imaging (depth, height, width, specificity) greatly with my speakers, in conjunction with tonal balance and timbre on voices and real instruments. For HPs the considerations and weighting of SQ aspects may be rather different. Feel free to PM me. Several of the DACs I really like are actually for headphone listening (Ayre, Mojo, Amethyst) , but I use them for my regular stereo system. I also don’t want to get too specific about the negatives of the various units... people here get defensive and pissy when someone says what they may have and like didn’t work well for reasons a b and c... |
@barrista0611 well, a caveat with the D100 Mk2 and some other DACs with transformer-based analog output stages is that they will have a higher output impedance. So matching one with a passive preamp may be less than ideal if the preamp input impedance is too low or if there is a lot of fluctuation in the input impedance by frequency. Some passive preamps have changing input impedance by volume, while others do not. But primarily a transformer-based output adds some warmth (i.e. distortion), usually to a slightly greater degree in the lower frequencies versus the mid-range or treble, without the negatives commonly associated with a NOS design like rolled-off treble or aliasing artifacts or the higher distortion associated with a tube design. There’s decent set of measurements posted for the D100 Mk2 on the Neko Audio website, and many reviews can be found online. Lumin and Linn also use output transformers in the analog output stage of their higher-end models. |
@jjss49 That’s - even for 3 systems - an impressive list (with some candidates I’m interested in), thanks a lot for your effort! Out of those you have kept: which one do you think could match best in my case, if you take as a basis that I prefer really rich, organic and thick textures in the mids and an overall fine articulation with a tactile and palpable grip of the bass while I don’t care for the absolute last resolution in the treble region? It's not that I don't like an extensive resolution in the treble too as I see how much this is related to a holographic soundstage but I'm a bit sensitive in that region. Sure this is system dependent but I guess every dac got it’s own fundamental character that it brings with. |
@barrista0611 i won’t say which is my favorite, it so depends on rest of system and synergies desired - but here is what i have kept vs gone (have 3 systems across couple homes so lots of duplicate gear) kept: audiomirror tubador 3 se sonnet morpheus metrum jade and amethyst mhdt orchid stockholm paradisea istanbul w mods chord m scaler and hugo tt2 mojo van alstine fet topp/hybrid dac jolida black ice glass fx (upgraded) dena pontus auris d1d ayre codex sold: chord 2qute qutest neko d100-2 schiit bifrost mb gumby yggy border patrol se-i psa directstream topping d90 rme adi 2 dena ares 2, term metrum octave mytek brooklyn benchmark dac2 w4s dac 2-2 smsl vmv d1 many of the dacs sold are good, just didn't work for me tonally, or didn’t seem better to me than less expensive ’relatives’ or alternatives for a similar sound signature a few others out there i will try over time, like a holo, a lampizator... not in a hurry, as the ones i have all clear the bar for being very listenable with the tonality and resolution i seek to enjoy streaming and files served |
@invalid @nekoaudio To be honest I have never tried (or even seen) a transformer output dac like the Neko Audio D100 Mk2. What exactly could I expect? I’m using a passive pre between my (active) tube preamp and the power amp and always thought about exchanging this for an AVC or a TVC. And also, I never had a tube dac as I bought my tube preamp first and then starting to get into looking for a new dac. I spent a lot of time in finding the right tubes and would say I’m satisfied insofar. For this reason I still would prefer a solid state nos dac. At the moment I’m mostly looking out for - Metrum Onyx/Jade - Holo Spring 2/L2 - Audial S4 - Mojo Mystique v2X - (Yamamoto YDA 01) Happy to hear opinions about those units. Still open to other options of course. |
Not since the early 90s have I declared that vinyl was superior to digital. However, to be so cost more. Digital has come along way since then, and as it improved, the cost differential between vinyl and digital has increased. Having tubes in the system does compliment. My Audio Mirror Tubadour III DAC opened up the soundstage, improved imaging, added air, and increased resolution in my system. As did my Aric Audio Special all tube preamp. |
@snackeyp I find it amusing how so many "audiophiles" dig in on one or the other medium of music delivery as being superior and the other being useless. well said, and i agree wholeheartedly earlier this year when covid started and being mostly shut in, i undertook the challenge of learning and implementing streaming into my system, which was cd and lp based up to that point - my question was can i get streaming to sound as good as cd or analog it has been a long, but fun and interesting journey - some 8-10 streamers, 25-30 dacs... the short answer is yes, streaming sounds every bit as good, mostly due to good sounding dacs the whole experience streaming is such a massive upgrade to only listening to cd’s and lp’s on hand -- simply because streaming lets you discover new music so effortlessly... sooooo happy now... i listen more than ever and enjoy it more than ever |
Digital is never going to sound like vinyl. It just isn't. There's no needle, it's not analogue. So you bought a Tesla, but you wish it sounded like a Ferrari. There's no cylinders, pistons or exhaust. But, you could play a recording through the stereo. Will it sound like an engine? Yes. Is it the same? No way. You can't get blood from a turnip. This is just how it is. |
I see people on this & other threads really trashing NOS DACs on technical grounds. I also see certain measurement-centric (vs listening-centric) audio sites trashing NOS DACs. If you really want to get closer to vinyl/analog sound while staying in the digital realm, the surest way I know is to get yourself a solid NOS DAC. My 2nd NOS DAC is the MHDT Labs Orchid w/tube buffer circuit (which I rolled an older tube into). I don't know & don't care how it measures--I do know that it succeeds in shedding the known digital nasties better than any previous DAC in my system. In the side system I have a multibit DAC (Audio GD DAC-19) which, despite also getting trashed by reviewers, sounds quite decent to me. Understand, though--NOS digital may lack the familiar digital nasties (edgy/insistent upper midrange & treble; overly "dry" acoustic; harmonically thin notes; impactful but tonally parched bass; on and on)--but it isn't equivalent to really good vinyl. Digital & vinyl simply don't sound the same. In fairness to digital, it's quite easy to use a peaky/pricey moving coil cartridge with the wrong phono preamp to arrive at sound nearly as nasty as trad/delta-sigma digital. Still different from digital, but nasty. |
I fully agree with 'Twodolphins", the EAR Dacute Classic really provides an analogue sound. I used one for about two years. Prior to that I had the EAR Dac 4. The Dac 4 was marginally superior to the 'classic' but the functionality of 'classic' sold it for me. I also have a Tubadour III SE .... absolute winner especially for the price |
I find it amusing how so many "audiophiles" dig in on one or the other medium of music delivery as being superior and the other being useless. I believe that both digital and analog are amazing once the right formula is found. The right combination of components can/will produce magic. Shutting oneself off to one particular medium because of preconceptions, misconceptions, bad experiences and the like is the definition of ignorance. For many (most?), ignorance is easy, convenient and comfortable. There is pain and inconvenience in discovery and enlightenment. There is also a lot of joy in it, if you're willing to keep an open mind. |
I have experienced and owned dozens of DAC's. I always come back to R2R based designs with tubes. I have the rare opportunity to have an Audio Note DAC 5 Special and it has been modified as well. It has a different receiver chip based on the Xmos chip so it can natively take up to 384k on USB or 768k over I2s as well as stacked AD1865 chips. It is an end of life type of experience. Tubes without output transformer designs are definitely a step backward but those can approach magic just not like an OPT design that needs no brick wall filter as the OPT does that for you. |
@barrista0611 .. I've not heard the Orchid so I can't comment on the sound quality vs. the Pagoda but I've had my Pagoda for 2.5 years now. I'll comment only on one aspect of the MHDT line, the Pagoda is the only DAC in their line able to process 24/192 without down-sampling. Of course, this may not be important to you, but it is to me. FWIW I love the sound quality of this DAC, which replaced my Chord Qute EX DAC. |
Can someone comment on orchid VS pagoda?Member @teajay has written nice reviews of both, and if I recall he said if you run balanced the Pagoda offers substantial improvements. I don’t remember if he compared the Pagoda to the Audio Mirror Tubadour Mklll SE, but that would be an interesting comparison IMO. Hope this helps. |
Cleeds, The quote with Plankton in it was me quoting someone else. My comment about wicked high noise floor, etc. was in relation to the link the op posted. That is the sound he wants. I stand by my comments the recording at that link. CD is not inherently compressed. If it is, that was a mixing/mastering decisions whereas on vinyl that was often a necessity. Vinyl is a "sound" and it is desired by many audiophiles especially those that grew up with it and young people increasing feeling less involved and a less and less tactile world. However, you would be hard pressed to find a serious recording engineer who went through the transition from 80's analog to 2000's digital who will not tell you that digital sounds like what comes off the microphone, tape and digital do not. I mean people who worked in mid-high end studios with access to good quality analog and digital gear. That does not mean they will like the digital sound better. It just means it is accurate. |
@barrista0611 https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/thinking-about-getting-a-r2r-dac?page=3 that thread will help you... a lot of info you want gets covered in it in the thread, you will note that there is one person who got highly disruptive and argumentative in the thread, he was booted after complaints by several longstanding members, thus the numerous notes of deleted threads and some threads calling him out you should also note that person is back here, with a new usersname, in this thread and in the other i referenced... he/she is the only person who is repeatedly argumentative (this is fake, that is fake etc etc), posts several replies in succession... won’t name names here... read through and it will be obvious this having been said, the reading, if you are patient, will yield useful info to you as you upgrade dacs good luck |
The MHDT Orchid has a lot of good reviews for it's musicality. I had an MHDT Pagoda DAC. It's sound is detailed but the Jupiter HT caps @ 1uF made it sound musical with an even balance of detail. It was a perfect combination. Swap out cheap output coupling caps in any DAC for Jupiter HT caps. VCap ODAM will make the soundstage more expansive with higher resolution. |
audio2design Where you hear MORE elasticity, MORE tonal density, MORE plankton, MORE concentration to the point, MORE light-footedness ...Huh? Elasticity? Plankton? I don't hear those things at all when listening to LP. ... I hear MORE wickedly high noise floor, MORE compression, MORE distortion, MORE loss of low level detail, MORE loss of tonal balance, MORE fake "space" coupled with LESS instrument separation, and more unwanted/unnatural sibilance ...Huh? Wickedly high noise floor? Fake space? Unnatural sibilance? I don't hear those things from LP either. As for compression: I've found most CDs are much more compressed than their LP counterparts. |
NONE. Like trying to get a banana that tastes like a lemon. The ONLY thing you can do is pay up for the digital that sounds best to you. We can’t do it for ya. And then please try to be happy with the universe of fantastic recordings that are only available outside of our solar system of analogue. Give up on trying to find a wheel that is a perfect circle. Not gonna happen. Ever. I'm happy with both. BFD |
Hi @barrista 0611 Streaming means you're ultiamtely limited to the quality of the stream. That said, my experience comparing my own TT (Simon Yorke S4+arm) to my dacs (MSB Select-II & Ideon Ayazi) using an external HDD rarely yielded comparable sonic results -- and, going against the grain here, both DACs came close. In this regard, either my Ayazi, or a Benchmark or similar could do the trick within your budget limit. My brief experience: I wanted natural-sounding instruments, clarity, and explosive dynamcis. No compression on large passages - classical orchestra for example. R2R: I think that many R2Rs offer a romantic sound (i.e. naturalness coupled with a drop at frequency extremes) unless you go for the top of the line which are very expensive. IMO they will not satisfy your requirements. (My MSB probably would and you could even use its inbuilt pre as well--but at an exhorbitant price). A well-designed, chip-based DAC like the ones I mentioned (there are many others of course) along with one reclocker or two (daisy-chained) will offer surprisingly good sound. |
All those suggestions are great people, thank you!! I already own an R2R DAC, so now I'll be looking at - NOS R2R - Reconstruction filter - superior clocking As my budget is around 2,5k I will definitely have an eye on the Lapizator TDA1541 NOS, Tubadour MK III SE, Audio Note 2.1 and the new Soekris DAC 2541. Still open to other options of course! |
You need a NOS R2R dac to achieve the vinyl like effect in all the positive ways . I have personal experience of this . My new Sonnet DAC is less vinyl like than my Metrum Hex - which is for sale on this site - Only this type of dac comes up to the standard you are looking for. The Sonnet has different type of clarity possibly because of its volume control. |
No, what you think you hear is "natural". It is not, no more than vinyl sounds "natural", no more the analog tape is "natural". They are not natural, they are colored. You just happen to like that coloration and associate that with natural. All home audio systems are coloured in some way, whether it be from cables, component design, op amps, transformers, etc. You can stay in the digital domain but eventually the sound will be played through the speakers which have their own sonic signature, not to mention the room's influence. The goal of most audiophiles is to reproduce music as close as possible to the original recording and the intent of engineer and producer. And "air" is a desired element in music recording and playback; eg, classical, jazz, choral. |
