Looking for 200 watt Amp to drive Dynaudio Heritage speakers

@audio_is_subjective You have a cart to carry your oxen??

No one said you had to change. People said the same about the automobile, my ox cart works great. 

@atmasphere - No argument on the possibility of better sounding Class D amplifiers.  I think some of the perception problem is due to the level of hype surrounding each new amplifier release, which peaked with those Hypex NC1200 amplifiers when several reviewers declared them "as good as Class A".  They were not as good as the two Class A amps I owned at the time, Clayton M300s and Lamm M1.2 Reference.  They did some stuff nicely including well-damped (maybe a little over-damped) bass, nice tone, macro impact, and smoothness, but compared to the amplifiers I have enjoyed most, they came out a little flat and uninspiring for $9K amps.  I believe I once described the sound as musicians each playing in a separate room instead of a band playing together.  There was something about the ambient sounds that was not coherent as it is in real life.

I would love to hear a pair of small, light amplifiers that overcome that issue.  OTOH, my somewhat large heavy amps sit in one spot, don't bother anyone and sound great, plus I can lift them if I need to, so I have no reason to change anything.

To me, those impressions are mostly consistent with the current comment,

“lack of soul or engagement."

@mitch2 Right- but apparently, only holds true for those examples. They don't represent all class D amps any more than saying something like that represents all class AB amps. And there are plenty of the latter that suffer the same problem and are bright and harsh to boot.

But there are class D amps that are as involving and as musical as the best tube amps, perhaps even better as just pointed out. The ones I'm playing at home are more revealing than the triode OTLs I was playing for years prior but just as engaging so I don't miss the tubes at all.

I completely disagree with this post and actually find it somewhat amusing, however audio is subjective and is dependent on the listeners ability to listen. 

I find the new GaN amplification rivals tube amps in every way and modern tube amplifiers are actually lacking in comparison. These are my subjective findings. 

 I also don’t  believe you’ll get there with Class D amps  knowing what I’ve recently found after purchasing them myself and what you’re expecting sound wise from your amp despite claims of Class D now sounding like tubes.  They’re close but just don’t sound like tubes imo, particularly el34’s. 

PS Audio S300.

140W/ch/8 ohms

300W/ch/4 ohms

Class D- not heavy!

"it seems that lack of soul or engagement is a common theme more so than other critiques"

Everyone describes what they hear based on their own impressions, so I can only speak to my impressions of the Class D Acoustic Imagery Atsah monoblocks, that I owned for over a year. Those amps were built using the very same Hypex NC1200 modules used in the Merrill VERITAS monoblocks, and in Bruno Putzeys’ own Mola Mola Kaluga monoblocks.

As I wrote in these forums in 2021, the Atsah’s sounded, “dry, or at least dry’ish and lacking in that last touch of "realness," which better amplifiers are able to convey.”

A similar impression was conveyed in a review of the Mola Mola Kalugas, where the reviewer for “Mono & Stereo” wrote, “All notes were there but the illusion of musicians standing in front of me wasn`t convincing at all. The music didn`t sound inviting and involving, it was just… there. The emotional content was missing and the tonal colours were somewhat bleached. For lovers of analog reproduction and concert goers the sound could also be quite fatiguing and plain boring."

To me, those impressions are mostly consistent with the current comment,

“lack of soul or engagement."

it seems that lack of soul or engagement is a common theme more so than other critiques.

@marco1 I get that- I've experienced that myself. I think that comes from the designer not understanding that just because the amp is high efficiency that they still need to have a really robust power supply. If its not there the amp wimps out when you turn up the volume.

There's more to it than that of course. In exploring class D amps over the last 20 years, my impression is they vary in sound more than the worst to the best tube amps do. That's a pretty wide range.

I've been playing triode class A amps for most of the last 45 years if that's any help in understanding where I'm coming from...

@atmasphere I am not necessarily disputing you. It’s an observation on my part based on the Class D amps that I have either owned, or listened to in my systems.  My point here is the more I listen to Class D amps and the more I read comments or talk to others regarding their listening experiences with Class D amps, it seems that lack of soul or engagement is a common theme more so than other critiques. This includes the most recent technologies I just listened to at the Capitol Expo, as well.  Everyone’s mileage will obviously vary.

 The comments regarding Class D lacking “soul” is what was most interesting to me as I very much feel the same way when comparing my new Class D amp to either the tube or Class AB Solid State amps I also currently use in my systems.

@marco1 That has nothing to do with the class of operation and everything to do with how the class D amp is designed.

@bluethinker Check out the thread about the Coda 5.5.  I’m not personally familiar with Coda but they get a lot of very good press.  Also, weight and heat wise seem to be right on the line of what may be manageable for most people.  The comments regarding Class D lacking “soul” is what was most interesting to me as I very much feel the same way when comparing my new Class D amp to either the tube or Class AB Solid State amps I also currently use in my systems.

@bluethinker Remembering what led up to your purchase of the CJ amp, I think as you’ve already found you’ll be hard pressed to do better than the CJ amp you already have and your Dynaudio Heritage Specials.  That is assuming you’re getting enough volume with the CJ amp and Dynaudio, which you should be unless you’re trying to melt the paint off your walls or you’re ready to invest a sizable sum in both your new SS amp and a gym membership.  A better approach might be adding a sub if you find after a while you need more bass with the Dynaudio.  I also don’t  believe you’ll get there with Class D amps  knowing what I’ve recently found after purchasing them myself and what you’re expecting sound wise from your amp despite claims of Class D now sounding like tubes.  They’re close but just don’t sound like tubes imo, particularly el34’s. 

UAD 220 

stringamp

The NCx500 mono block from Hypex provides high power, high fidelity Class D amplification. It offers extreme power with finesse, precision and ultra low noise, in a very small and light form factor.

Deer Creek Audio in an authorized Hypex dealer.

Benchmark ABH2? Yes, only 100 watts but

small footprint, lightweight, cool running,

exceptionally clean sounding and ultra quiet. Strap

two together at 360 watts for under $5K the

pair used.

Search out a clean preowned Classe Delta CA-2300... end search, you have arrived. Perfect amp for your Dynaudio speaks! 

I would recommend the Kinki Studios EX-M1 amp 265 watts. I had one, and installed the Sparkos OP amp kit. Brought is very close to a class A amp. I had it paired with a set of Special 40 speakers, and then a set of Capriccio Continuo ad monitor 311 speakers. They are a more musical speaker than the special 40. I sold the Kinki because I got a smoking deal on a Sugden IA-4 integrated from my dealer. But the Kinki Amp and the S40's were a pretty decent pairing. 

@atmasphere Thanks. that definitely makes more sense as to how they got those numbers. Good old marketing department hard at work again

200W into 8 ohms. 100 amperes peak per channel. 45 lbs

@som FWIW Dept.:

The 100A has nothing to do with the output power just so you know. That’s probably the current that flows when the power supply is shorted for 10ms. I guarantee that if 100A flowed through the output section it would be permanently damaged.

The math tells you what is up. Power is mathematically related to speaker impedance and current:

P = R x Current squared

(R is the speaker resistance)

So if we give the amp the benefit of the doubt that it can double power as impedance is halved, and so use a 1 Ohm load, the current squared is then equal to the power. That’s 100 squared or 10,000 Watts. That doesn’t ’square’ with 200 Watts into 8 Ohms if you see what I did there. If it can double power right to 1 Ohm it would be 1600 Watts- to my knowledge no-one makes a 10,000 Watt amp that might be considered hifi.

If we use that current rating as a short circuit value (essentially a measure of how much capacity is available in the power supplies) then this makes more sense. We make a tube amp that has 80Amps available by that measure (the MA-2).

another vote for Hegel H390. I use it for Dynadio Contour 30 to great effect. 

$1200 for 200wpc

Coda S20. 200W into 8 ohms. 100 amperes peak per channel. 45 lbs

Owning relatively insensitive speakers myself (sensitivity of 86 dB at 2.83 Vrms and 1.0 meter on axis) that also have a low’ish impedance (4 Ω nominal, 3 Ω minimum, low reactance), but a high power handling capability, has led me to appreciate how more power (650 wpc/8 ohms/side in my case) can bring them to life in a way that results in a weightier, more tonally rich delivery that increases my overall sonic enjoyment.

@mitch2 Just a few items to point out here. The first is that the more power you need, the harder it is to find electronics that also sound like music. To that end, if you really need 650 Watts for your speaker to sing, they are next door to criminally inefficient, since you’re likely to never really get them to sound real.

As speakers become less efficient, a common problem is thermal compression, where the voice coils (in particular that or those of the woofer(s)) heat up with musical notes, thereby dynamically reducing current flow with those notes. The more efficiency you have, in general the less you deal with this problem and of course its far easier to find electronics for them that are musical.

Also FWIW there is no need for higher efficiency speakers to have less resolution or bandwidth. My speakers at home are 98dB and are flat to 20Hz; they are some of the most resolving speakers I've heard.

People have asked us why our class D is only 100 Watts (into 8 Ohms; clips at 125Watts and 250 into 4) and the answer is above. If you really need more power than that you need 1000 Watts, as 10x more power is needed to sound twice as loud.

Simply doubling power is only 3dB, hardly audible. So this is really far more about how the amp behaves with a musical signal than it is power! Even with a speaker of 86dB, the first 5 Watts are still the most important.

How about 300 watts? This should do the trick ;)

Fosi Audio V3 Stereo Amplifier Home Audio 300 Watts x2 Power

Yeah, I see that now, that they are rated at 4 ohms.

However, the OP wasn’t clear about which 100 watt amplifier made them sound "a little anemic", which is what caused him to be looking at amplifiers offering twice the power.

Owning relatively insensitive speakers myself (sensitivity of 86 dB at 2.83 Vrms and 1.0 meter on axis) that also have a low’ish impedance (4 Ω nominal, 3 Ω minimum, low reactance), but a high power handling capability, has led me to appreciate how more power (650 wpc/8 ohms/side in my case) can bring them to life in a way that results in a weightier, more tonally rich delivery that increases my overall sonic enjoyment.

Below is the impedance curve from the measurements performed for this linked review. The reviewer did say they got "stupid loud" and another reviewer said he had success driving them with the 25 wpc Pass INT-25. Surprisingly, several reviews never discussed which amplifier was used to drive them during the review, like this one, and this one, although they are specified/rated at 200W. Considering the OP already experienced the pitfalls of underpowering these speakers, and based on my own experience owning speakers with similar sensitivity and impedance specifications, my comment regarding amplifiers below 200wpc/8ohms would remain, try before you buy.

Your comment in the OP is probably the reason they were not recommended, because they are only rated at 100 wpc into 8Ω.

@mitch2 The speakers in question are 4 Ohms.

I have the Van Alstine DVA SET 500 and it is great value and sound. I switch it in/out with my tube monoblocks. Drives my EgglestonWorks Fontaine speakers with ease. 250w A/B. Many reviews on the SET 400 out there, the 500 is the same amp (alittle more power) but in the newer, smaller, much easier to handle box, heatsinks now on sides instead of the back. Check out their website. Direct, no dealers. 

great, thank you @bluethinker 

I know that uploading photos is a pain

@grislybutter - I tried to upload a photo but wasn't able to on first try months ago. I'll try to find some time this weekend to share my set-up. It's been a labor of love putting everything together and happy to provide a photo for you and the forum. 
 

"The Dynaudio Heritage Special speakers require power to open up. Driven at 100 watts, they sound a little anemic and the treble dominates at lower levels."

Your comment in the OP is probably the reason they were not recommended, because they are only rated at 100 wpc into 8Ω.  Not saying they wouldn't work for your music, room, and those speakers, but you might want to make sure there is a return option.

@atmasphere - Thank you. I appreciate the detailed write-up and explanation. I know your class D amps are well regarded and am a bit surprised they were not suggested earlier in the discussion. Food for thought for me moving forward. 

So I decided to give the Dynaudio HS speakers a whirl with the Conrad Johnson amp which is 125 watts per channel. I didn't expect much, but was sort of blown away. The CJ amp totally opened up the speakers in a way I didn't expect and made me realize I can get away simply powering them with the CJ amp. 

@bluethinker The difference between 100 Watt and 200 Watts is 3dB, which to the ear is barely noticeable. As you found out this is really more about how the amp plays with the speaker than it is power.

There are some things to consider when using tubes with 4 Ohms. First, although tube amps have 4 Ohm taps, the output transformer often loses an octave of bandwidth between 8 and 4 Ohms because its less efficient. This loss, which is usually less than 20Hz, results in less impact due to phase shift in the bass. If you measure the temperature of the output transformers with a thermal camera you'll also see they are running warmer into 4 Ohms- and that heat is power made by the output tubes.

You'll also find that the speaker cables are far more critical using 4 Ohm speakers so its best to keep them as short as possible (an argument for monoblocks). This is particularly true of tube amps which tend to have a higher output impedance.

There are class D amps now that don't take a back seat to tube amps of any kind in any way (except overload character) that can make the power you were asking about.

I have a pair of emit m30 and I run a Carver tfm 35 that has been recapped and my sound is wonderful.320 watts @ 4 ohms.

Do yourself a favor and look at Devialet. They are an incredible bargain IMO. They are dead quiet, and provide plenty of power. And you want something light and easy to maneuver, you can’t get easier to maneuver.

youmcan get a single 200 watt unit for in the low to mid 2k, or you can find a dual mono 400 watt unit for under your max budget.

Read some reviews. They are easy enough to find. Also, I checked, they have a SAM setting for your Dynaudio heritage special, so they will likely sound fantastic being driven by whichever model you went with.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p4432023.m570.l1312&_nkw=devialet+expert&_sacat=0

if you happen to be in the Tampa Bay Area, I would be happy to do a demo for you.

good luck,

mike

that's great to hear. I am a big Dynaudio fan and I think it's somewhat of a myth that they require 200+ Watts. From what I read, the Heritage must give you a lot of joy :) 

Hi Everyone - 

THANK YOU for all the suggestions. It is really illuminating to hear about all the suggested options. @grislybutter - Feeling guilty from GrislyButter's comment, I lugged the HS Speakers upstairs and move the QLN Prestige 3 to the side. 

It had been awhile (10 months) since I'd listened to the Dynaudio HS speakers. I'd found my Audio Hungary 100 Power Amp just didn't fully light them up. I'd subsequently purchased a Conrad Johnson Classic 120 with EL34 tubes and moved my Audio Hungary to back-up amp status... 

So I decided to give the Dynaudio HS speakers a whirl with the Conrad Johnson amp which is 125 watts per channel. I didn't expect much, but was sort of blown away. The CJ amp totally opened up the speakers in a way I didn't expect and made me realize I can get away simply powering them with the CJ amp. 

I reviewed ALL of the solid state options suggested in the thread. Before I realized the CJ amp would work, I was leaning towards the Hegel H390 as the best solution, although many of your other suggestions were - and are - intriguing for the future. 

@soix 

Yes, you’re absolutely correct…I reread OPs post and it seems he does want to swap in a new amp. Sorry for mucking up your post OP, with recommendations not salient to your question! Personally, given your ideas of weight restrictions I’d sell the preamp and consider one of the integrated amps suggested. There are many manufacturers out there with well-designed and built integrated amps that will get you 90-95% of separates within a certain price point of course. 

To those recommending integrated amps, note the OP has an excellent LTA MicroZOTL preamp in his system so pretty sure he’s just looking for a power amp. 

@mofojo 

Yes, I tried several other integrated amps before Octave and I love its tonal balance, very dynamic with the super black box (essentially a huge capacitor bank). You can roll several different types of output tubes, but for this amp, the KT120s or KT150s work best especially with the Dynaudios. I use NOS Amperex Bugle Boy tubes for the preamp stage and driver tubes along with my phonostage, and this has made the biggest difference in sound quality. The Amperex tubes are stunningly good! Tube gear requires more time investment, but to me it’s a fun part of the hobby. 

I'm currently running the HS with a Musical Fidelity A308.  45lbs, 300 watts into 4 ohms but it does sound a bit sleepy below 75% on the dial, and opens up wonderfully when you let it rip.  So I kinda get what you are looking for.  I've demoed the Hegel 390 but not with the Heritage Special.   It's a terrific all around integrated, plenty of detail at lower volumes, neutral, open and airy, it's very difficult to nitpick because it does everything well, very much like the HS themselves.  I'm sure it would make a great pair.  I'd also take a look at the Krell K-300i.  It's about 5 lbs lighter then the Hegel, a bit more expensive but should be in your range used with a little haggling.  I've never heard it personally but it's well regarded. 

Paired with your LTA pre I would definitely go for SS amps a tiny bit on the warmish side (you can get these amps around $6K new, not too far outside your budget):

- CODA S5.5 

- AGD Tempo di GaN

- Jeff Rowland 535

All have the requisite drive and sonic profiles, but I'm not sure your pre has balanced outputs as all these amps are either XLR only or best when used with balanced I/O. Also not sure if the I/O impedances are all matched well so caveat emptor.

@njkrebs ,

if I was to give up the awesome room correction of my Lyngdorf and go tubes I would likely buy an Octave. Heard them 2 different times and they were super good. Best of both worlds kinda like. Year or so ago I was knockin on that door. 

Bryston 3B (200w) or 4B (400w) of what ever generation falls into your price bracket.  Probably a 4Bsst is all you will ever need for power and will last forever.  

If you can stretch your budget, these monoblocks may provide a nice sound quality at a very easy to carry weight.  They come with Pelican-type cases so they are easy and safe to transport.

For much less money at 250 wpc/8 ohms, look at these, also easy to carry.

Here is another well-regarded 250 wpc/8 ohm integrated amplifier with an onboard 24-bit/192-kHz DAC using Burr-Brown PCM1794 converters.  This one weighs 22 pounds.

back to powerful amp, NEW, use a few or several features now or future. Problem: 84 lbs

The Parasound A23+ checks all your boxes. 240w@4 ohms. Class A/AB. Two can be used as dual mono. 35 pounds. 

How big are your Main and Secondary spaces?

You could rotate these in your main system, use your Qln on rotation in place of the Dynaudio if they fit

Krell Resolution 1, $4k delivered.

you would neen to hire a football team to get them upstairs.

one more thing, based on trying a lot of speakers in the hardest category, I think it's nearly impossible to predict what you will like, for an amp in this case, out of the 100s of choices. Something will hit the spot and make those speakers sound irresistible. Is auditioning an option in your area?

I just re-read your initial post.

I would sell the Dynaudio Speakers, buy some efficient 3 way speakers, then look at tube options now or future.

Ports: I avoid, if port, front only.

Efficient Speakers help you keep the weight, size, cost, down and increase placement options.

Peachtree Carina GaN. Integrated, 200W, GaNFET, has a phono section (MM) if needed, does not require a DAC.