A fettler is a British term for a maintenance or repair worker, or someone who sands or grinds small imperfections from metal or ceramic.
Linn Bedrok LP12 Plinth Upgrade
Linn has a new plinth upgrade for the LP12. Wow, over $11,000 USD!
151 responses Add your response
Thank you. Just to explain, it wasn’t the same LP12. I sold my original turntable in a fit of madness five years ago. About two years ago I started to have a yearning for vinyl again. My dealer lent me an LP12 that had been traded in. It was essentially the same as my old turntable, except it had Urika II instead of Urika I. It sounded streets ahead of my old turntable. So eventually after much soul searching, I bought it at a reasonable price. I put the improvement down to the Urika II working so well with my Klimax DSM/3 Hub. In the light of your comments about LP12 fettlers, I do wonder if there might be more to it than that. Of course, there may same other factor in play. Funny you mention bearing oil. I was just watching a video of Linn’s Gordon Inch building a Bedrok LP12. He adds a few extra drops of oil in the Karousel to get exactly the right level. I’ll ask my dealer about the warm up time. Now I think about this, it has been most noticeable since I had Radikal and Karousel upgrades fitted. Also, that coincides with winter.
|
I used the term fettling as follows _ The Linn Sondek is of Scottish descent. Scottish dictionary defines fettling as - II. v. 1. tr. To put to rights, into good condition or working order, to mend, repair; to settle, arrange The best Linn was the 40th Anniversary model because it came with a bottle of 40 year old Highland Park scotch whisky. Perfect way to drown your sorrows when your Linn goes out of tune - again. |
@dover Sorry to disappoint you, but the current LP12 does not fall out of tune, once it has been set up correctly, it stays that way. Linn addressed the problem years ago,
@yoyoyaya The idea that the table needs to be set up by someone who has the know how to do it correctly, is by no means a myth. The tolerances and the design has been improved immensely since you last set up the table, as evidenced by your comment. |
I’m not disappointed, I’ve heard the later iterations ( $60k fully loaded ) and they are indeed much improved. I’ve often thought about getting another to put my Naim Aro on, for posterity. I also liked the Pink Linn with vector drive some years ago. Try your Linn without a plinth, you can use T-slot extrusions. you might be surprised. No box is without its own inherent colourations. As an aside I can't stand the current fad of replacing the springs with grommets - definitely out of tune literally with that "mod". I hear one note bass with grommets. |
@dover I have heard a Linn LP12 without a plinth, it did nothing for me. I do agree, the new grommets/mushrooms are also nothing special, having heard that mod as well, i wouldn’t consider them either. |
Did anyone ever compare the 80s Linn LP12 with a Logic DM101 back in the day? Five years ago l restored a 1980s Logic DM100 MK2 electronic and made no modifications at all. The turntable just plays records with no fussing or need for ‘fettling’ The plinth is so heavy and robust with a 8mm solid aluminium sub chassis. A unique three point six spring suspension (plus the centre spring for heavier arms) makes this turntable a very good buy. Set it up and just play….. l recently replaced the ‘basic’ fitted Syrinx LE1 arm with an Audio Origami rewired Syrinx PU3. The arm just bolts straight on to the aluminium sub chassis so no separate sound degrading arm board. I have decided to put away all the ‘upgradeitus’ syndrome as this turntable (for me and my opinion only) will be the one to keep.
l would love to know what others know about Logic and their plinth. It appears to me anyway that they very much nailed their plinth design 40 years ago. As far as l know this spring configuration was never adopted by any other manufacturers. |
Yes I had a Linn once with Syrinx PU2 when I was a student. Also had a Logic DM101 for a short period around that time. The Logic was quite good for the money, but the suspension was very twitchy. The Sota Star that followed had a much more stable suspension system and was a sigiificant upgrade in sound quality to both. |
I googled Logic. Very interesting spring-suspended TT and very reminiscent of the early AR XA turntable, which was my own first true audiophile turntable, probably in 1970-71. I suppose Logic may have crossed my path at some point, and I just forgot about it. I can say they were not marketed very vigorously in New York City or New England audio stores back then, Seems like the DM101 could be tweaked in a positive direction. Spring suspension could benefit from some damping, or so it seems. |
The Logic turntables never really broke into the US marketplace so that’s probably why you never came across the range. The DM101 was well regarded for its natural deeper bass extension and neutral sound primarily because of its substantial plinth.. I found it not finicky and easy to match a wide variety of arms which bolted directly onto the one piece aluminium sub chassis. My DM101 mk2 electronic was the last in the series and once set up with any arm l mounted it has needed little maintenance, just oil and belts. Logic relied on Syrinx to manufacture their tonearms which was a healthy working arrangement for two small British companies. Logic eventually engineered their own in-house arms and bought in ‘branded’ cartridges (probably Goldring) with the Datum IIS being their most successful tonearm and now highly sort after. I have known people buy other decks with a Datum IIS just to get hold of the arm. Logic fell by the wayside in the late 80s with many saying they over engineered the turntables versus selling price trying to break into the market. They sold them too cheaply trying to gain a market share to survive, and by then CDs had entered the fray. |
AR XA… l am acquainted with that deck…. And still on some peoples top ten turntables of all time
The damping you mentioned for the DM101 was only a fix for if the springs had stretched. Normally caused if the deck was transported and the sub chassis was not screwed up (to bottom out the suspension) l know this deck like the back of my hand now. Check ‘Youtube Logic DM101 boing boing’ for the famous Logic Bounce. You may need Facebook to access it. |
@lewm The term used in the Old Country referring to a good outcome from tweaking and tinkering is well-fettled. e.g. 'I have a well-fettled LP12.'
|
| Post removed |
Well explained definition of tweaking and tinkering. Your example, ‘l have a well-fettled LP12’ made me smile….. l expect those with one have had an equally well-fettled wallet over the years if the TT has been incrementally upgraded? Hobbies like this are nearly always a quest, and cost is but part of the journey.
|
Not to beat a tired horse, but when I first read the word "fettler" on this thread, I had no trouble understanding its meaning, owing to our use of the term "fiddling", meaning to mess around with a complex object, and the obvious relationship to the term "fine fettle". Funnily, in American English, we generally don't use "fiddler" synonymously with fettler. That term is reserved for actual musicians who play the fiddle. The Wiki definitions are obviously biased toward American English. Mylogic, What I meant was that the DM101 just based on photos appears to have no damping for its spring suspension, which is generally needed to prevent overshoot and oscillation of the suspension. Hence, I guess, the Logic Bounce that you mention. |
Damped suspension The logic bounce l referred to is excess downforce applied to the spindle while playing a record. The sub-chassis will violently bounce up and down and the cartridge will not leave the groove. Also no change in the pitch of the recording playback. The deck will recover as if nothing has happened. That is also true of footfall…..no effect on the turntable, it is quite oblivious to it. The Logic DM101 in its various forms never had damped springs. Any tweaks on that model were due to the scarcity of replacing stretched springs after hit and miss results of sourcing replacements from basic hardware stores. Often a damping tweak was tried to match the characteristic bounce if the new springs were too weak. Of the higher quality turntables circa 70s and 80s l have owned, Garrard 401, Thorens TD124 mk2, CJ Walker 55, Systemdek III and the Logic DM101, none from the start have ever had damped springs. l believe you mentioned a Garrard 401 in your system and were sourcing a new plinth?. My early series 401 (with the flush mount strobe light) was mounted in the huge ‘SME Plinth System’. The plinth base and depth was so big to accomodate the widest and deepest decks. The cover was of similar height to the plinth and designed to take the tallest 9 and 12’’ arms. It became unwieldily in my living room and absolutely dominated it. That was why l parted company with the set up in the 80s…..it was a bad move looking back now! The idea of having two turntables in a lounge back then would have been unthinkable, but now is not too much of a wierd idea. |
Like @lewm, the AR XA was my first good table. But the arm wasn't so hot. I replaced the AR with a Thorens TD-150, which had a suspension, platter, and bearing very similar to the AR, but with a much better arm. I then got a TD-125 (with an SME 3009 mounted on it), which was nothing but trouble. I had it in the repair shop many, many times, and the electronics were never fixed. Too complicated. The Linn Sondek was a much better approach to turntable design. The basic design (including 3-pt. spring suspension) was the same as the AR and Thorens, but with superior machining and finishing (especially of the bearing).
|
An old friend of mine, now sadly upstairs and now looking down on us kind of worshipped his Hi-Fi. He never stuck with the same brands and I was always conveniently right behind him when he was upgrading and l bought two turntables. l remember the saying he was always coming out with and on reflection a parable of sorts…. ‘’A good turntable should be seen, and not heard!’’
Please take this in good spirit……l am sure he was just talking about wow and rumble.
|
@mylogic Your friend was 100% correct. Noise generated from the table is not beneficial. Which is one of the reasons why Linn has gone to significant effort to minimize the input from the table to the upstream components. For example, the new Karousel bearing is certainly a lot more accurate than the very good Cirkus bearing. Accurate and quiet. With my set up, I can put the stylus into the lead in groove and there is still dead silence until the music starts to play. It's a bit unnerving when you first hear this, as one thinks there must be something wrong with the system, but that S/N ratio is important..as your friend was alluding to. |
Noise once you lower the cartridge onto the LP surface is going to be primarily do to the quality of the pressing and any defects in the stylus shape or tracking, surely not due to the bearing assembly, which noise ought to be way below the threshold set for noise by the stylus and the vinyl. Doncha think? That said, I guess it might be possible to perceive that the noise floor is lowered independently of "groove" noise even though that latter is dominant by measurement. It's actually a complex question. |
Is it noise or is it really there? Not talking about noise from the turntable but from the mechanics of ‘cutting’ a record. Do you find it interesting to hear things between the tracks? l had never noticed there was ‘information’ buried between tracks until l bought my Logic DM100. It was definitely more obvious and there after l upgraded the arm to a Syrinx PU3 and a hyper-compliance Goldring G900IGC.
Out of interest is there anyone who has detected this phenomena? l can only describe it as a very faint subsonic ‘nub’ sound right in the middle of the few seconds gaps between tracks. It’s not on all records but more often found on 60s and 70s pressings. I can only deduce that the cutting engineer physically stopped the turntable at these points (maybe to cue tapes) leaving a short modulation when restarting the cutter. Or maybe he had to lift the cutter and drop it again when starting the next track? That’s the only explanation l can think of.
Interesting l have only noticed this more recently with much older battered ears!
AFTER THOUGHT. Could it be master tape edits (splices) if whole albums were assembled this way?
Any old cutting engineers out there? The noise is similar to the resulting splices when made to the optical soundtracks on 35mm film which l noticed during my cinema projection years. |
@lewm Obviously if the record has pressing defects or scratches etc., it will sound. I am talking about a clean pressing that does not have these issues. The bearing of the Linn ( and I think in reality, all turntables) is probably the most important aspect of the whole affair. There is where I now believe one gets the biggest benefit to the SQ. Hard to know this ( hear this?) when so many table manufacturer's are not really concentrating on this aspect. Linn is..and the results are clearly audible. |
Davey, You said you can put your stylus into the lead in groove and there is dead silence. All I am saying is that should be the case for any decent turntable at normal listening levels, because one ought not to hear bearing noise (even though bearing noise is undoubtedly present at some very low level below the signal) with any decent turntable. And of course the Linn is much better than "decent". In regard to Mylogic's subsequent comment, some LPs and some cartridges are more prone than others to pick up what some call "pre-groove echo". Pre-groove echo is often audible at a very low level when the stylus is seemingly between cuts but is really entering into the grooves for the next cut. So that could seem like you are hearing "information" between grooves. |
Pre-groove inter-modulation. Yes that can be easily a case if a heavily modulated track is present perpendicular to where the stylus is tracking. There is some heat generated by the cutting stylus which can meld into the adjacent track….the echo effect you rightly mentioned. l am not talking about this but about a sound (nothing to do with any iner-modulation) that is totally alien to anything recorded intentionally. I am just listening funnily enough and l am hearing this ‘nub’ between every track of Quincy Jones’s soundtrack of ‘In Cold Blood’ RCA RD-7931 (1967) Another example from memory is Manfred Mann’s original soundtrack to ‘Up the Junction’ again from the 60s on Fontana label which was where l first noticed this. Strange but true….. One other thought to share…. l always tell friends to use Dire Straits ‘Love Over Gold’ album as a test record for a whole Hi-Fi system. If You can’t hear the breaking milk bottle in the ‘Private Investigations’ track, your Hi-Fi is not as ‘Hi’ as you think. If that breaking milk bottle is not there, then it is most likely the front end is just not retrieving it. |
@lewm While you might expect that a dead silence be portrayed by any decent table when placing the stylus into the lead in groove, you might be surprised how rare that experience is. I have heard numerous high end tables that cannot do this 'trick' even though they are set up correctly. All of my prior tables and even my LP12 with Cirkus, could not manage this. There was always a slight noise from the speakers, not complete silence.
@mylogic While I agree with you that the Dire Straits breaking milk bottle is a test, it is a very low lying test. IMO, you would have to have a pretty veiled set up to miss that part of the track. A better test would be whether your system can portray depth, intimacy and scale...which very very few can. Scale in particular is very hard to portray, usually requiring a large space and large speakers with excellent dynamic contrast. In my many years as a hobbyist, I can count on one hand systems that can portray scale, depth and intimacy...all three. Most folks think their systems can portray these things, in reality most portray ( at best) one of the three. |
I have bought my LP12 with cirkus and lingo 12 years ago. Now it features Karousel akurake Radikal 2 keel Ekos se Mutech Hayabusa and Duo Sutherland phono stage. I had to move the deck out of the wall mount and decided to try the Audiosilente mushrooms. I don’t feel particular improvements nor decrease in performance. My ears may be aging more than I thought. I love the LP12 and I can adjust the suspensions easily and without the need for skilled feddlers. I actually prefer to look after it myself. I have no particular DIY skills. It’s up to the user way of enjoying this hobby. If you are the eternally unsure person about your deck performance just go for a technics direct drive. |
Dire Straits Private Investigations ‘’breaking milk bottle’’ and ‘‘intimacy’’ test with a pussy….yes there is a ‘musical’ one in there. Knopfler implies with his guitar that a cat knocks over said milk bottle. It is quite a good test because lots of people have that LP. It can be useful for example if you can hear it on head phones but not on your main speakers. You would know better speakers are required (or the opposite of course) Also a great trackability test for a cartridge. Hearing the breaking glass is not the only consideration either….it is how clear and distinctive it is in the mix. Is it only just audible or is it right there in the alleyway. Also there is a lot going on in that recording and most people just miss it. I mention this as just one test for setting up speakers to achieve all the 3 goals you described. |
@mylogic The interesting thing that occurs to me is that in this hobby, many times folk are not aware of the failings, or shortcomings, of their systems. Only upon an exposure to what they are missing can they discover what is either a) missing from their systems portrayal or b) a solution to the issue. Unfortunately, since it is just as easy to go backwards in system development as it is to go forwards, the opportunity for doing more damage is there. For example, I have heard on many occasions, folk whose rooms are not able to develop accurate bass, or more intimacy in quiet recordings...utilize fixes that are detrimental and result in even less pleasant sound. Sometimes these very same folk realize the error and rectify it, most times they do not...and the system begins to go down a slippery slope. Easy to do. |
@mylogic
I am wondering if the SME plinth I was given with my Garrard 301 is an example of the huge SME Plinth System? At first glance, it has stepped sides, a floating deck and is essentially hollow with just a flimsy hardboard base. The Garrard 301 does include six springs positioning its motor in space, and each spring is damped by a rubber tube around its middle. Garrard also intended that the 301 should be mounted on a deck which is spring mounted to a plinth. Garrard supplied the springs but not the deck, nor the plinth. My SME plinth has long corner-mounted threaded rods which sit in the springs and can be adjusted by twisting four attached knobs above the deck. The deck is damped at each corner by soft foam blocks, so lowering the deck increases the damping. Nevertheless, the springing is nowhere near as soft or as "long travel" as an LP12
|
Yes Richard, you have the SME Plinth System l mentioned. You could buy all the parts separately. When l bought the 401 from a friend he had the deck mounted on a hi-fi bench with just the Perspex lid. As he was an electrical engineer he was able to order me just the base and counter spring hinges to make the full system. All your descriptions confirm this…. sides progressively bigger from the base up. Four large rod spring adjusters with black knobs to level the sub-chassis in each corner. Silver trim 360 degrees around sides. Very heavy cover with counter balanced spring assembly to keep the lid up. Holes in the back for mains and RCA cables. It was a MONSTER and could creak at times (thick grease on spring bases fixed this).The sub-chassis did not bounce very much and was quite rigid. The 401 needed a really substantial plinth and this construction was the best option available. We now know solid granite or very heavy wooden bases do the job much better. Everything is as you describe. There are always some on eBay in the UK as more were sold here of course. The classic Garrard set up in the early 70s in the UK was considered to be…. Garrard 401 SME 3009 or the 3009 improved Shure V15 mkII or mkIII (or Goldring G800 or G850, but they didn’t track so well) SME Plinth System. There has always been a debate on which was the best of the two turntables. It comes down to personal choice in appearance or operational preference. Underneath there was little design difference. The 401 would clunk a lot using the twist start/stop control. The corner levers of the 301 were easier. BBC DJs would normally position the stylus half a revolution from the start of the track next to be played and the 301 was much easier to engage the motor and supposedly had quicker motor up to speed performance. The BBC STORY The 301 was the standard BBC radio turntable in the 60s and was the most loved by the pioneering DJs. The 401 was intended to replace these radio stations 301s as Garrard wanted to maintain this status of suppliers of said turntables.It backfired on Garrard as the DJs demanded that the 301s be retained and put back because the 401 was not so easy to use. The DJs preferred the controls and quicker take up speed performance of the 301. The batch of 401s l was told were re-boxed and then just chucked into a corner of a room somewhere. About 12 years ago someone was selling four mint 401s in their original boxes on eBay saying they did a BBC clearance on old gear that were ‘surplus to requirements’. I remembered all this and was able to tell the seller as to how they found their way there. I informed him of this story and he was selling each one far too cheaply (about £600 each) ……..l should have bought them all myself. UPDATE l don’t believe the SME Plinth System appeared until the 401 was in production so your model 301 was probably rehoused. SME would cut out the sub-chassis to your chosen turntable and SME arm model position if requested.
|
Nailed it! You have very precisely described my SME plinth. My grease-bearing Garrard 301 has the SME 3009 improved fixed head shell tone arm, and the Shure V15 Type III cartridge (hyper elliptical stylus). My dad gave it to me so it has sentimental value I got given it when I was on a world business trip just after CDs came out, and just after my hifi was stolen. I bought Quad gear on that trip - pre-amp, amplifier and ESL-63 speakers - so hardly used the turn table. The on-going debates on vinyl versus digital and the rising value of Garrard decks has piqued my curiosity. What is all the fuss about? You mentioned start up speed - half a revolution - and they can stop just as quickly. I have replaced the main bearing with an oil bearing from the Classic Turntable Company. I have kept the plinth as an outer shell and dustcover, but removed the flimsy base. It is now infilled with constrained layers of MDF on IsoAccoustics OREA Bordeau pucks sitting on 50-kg of Sydney sandstone. The deck springs are bypassed at the moment, but can be used for a comparison. Thank you for the extra information! UPDATE That makes sense. My dad originally housed the Garrard in a cabinet I designed and he built. The board in the SME plinth looks factory cut to me, from veneered chipboard! Could be my next upgrade. It is a pity SME cannot supply parts for these plinths! |
301 & 401 The Garrard’s were mainly sold as just decks…..no plinth. SME…. The company has stopped supplying individual models now and only sell them fitted on their SME turntables l believe. No back catalogue of spares for older stuff from the 70s is now commercially viable. It is a shame the UKs leading arm designer has now abdicated and left the building. |
@mylogic In May 2018, SME took over everything Garrard from IGB Gradiente S.A. of Brazil and seems to be manufacturing the Garrard 301 again, initially from New Old-Stock. They also took over Loricraft Audio. SME only supplies the new Garrard 301 with an SME M2-12R tonearm, or the V-12 magnesium tonearm. They won't supply spare parts like the rubber mat to folk like me. The price is quite incredible (over GBP 35,000) and they only seem able to produce one every two weeks, at best. Do you know more? |
Resurrecting the Garrard 301 l’m afraid the rejuvenated 301 (from old stock rebuilds) is now looking more expensive than what you quoted. Loricraft are making a packet of money even if they can only achieve one deck sale every two weeks. It has become a sellers market. 301’s are good but a tall order value for money leap for that price point in all sincerity. Obviously l have not heard one and is just an opinion.
In 2018 the CEO of SME at an audio fare told a reporter that it was intended in the near future to re-release the SME heritage arms over time one by one. This did not materialise. I don’t think SME will commit to rebuilding the 301 from scratch (or even the rubber mats) l expect the restored 301 projects they are selling via Loricraft will be for a very exclusive club, not really considered value for money but a status symbol toy. Check out Lenco Heaven website for their take on the whole affair. I bet the original Lenco owners may have missed an opportunity to do the same thing with their famous GL75 which quite possibly was the greatest best kept secret deck of the 60s & 70s. So many of these a old stalwarts are being rebuilt with new arms. Partly due to the unique drive system and enhanced performance in new plinths this turntable is a sleeping giant. |
That reply to @richardbrand went right over my head……. Englebert Humperdinck (real name Arnold Dorsey) lives just up the road from me in Devon, England. Shall l ask him if it was him?
|
Didn’t Terry O’Sullivan have something to do with Garrards as well? He was the manufacturer of Loricraft machines and I’m sure he also sold or refurbished Garrard decks. I had assumed SME acquired that side of things from him when he sold them Loricraft. He was based a few miles from where I was born and grew up, both villages being close to the home of Garrard, Swindon. A very helpful man to deal with, as I found out when my Loricraft arrived with the pump loose inside: he encouraged me to take it apart and re-secure the pump to its base with four bolts. Turns out UPS had been throwing it about with all their usual care and attention. PS I looked up the details. Terry bought the name whilst the S. Americans bought what was left of the business after Plessey had run it into the ground. |
Yes it’s quite a complicated whose-who with the Garrard franchise over the years…
Swindon was in the past a great base for everything ‘round’ Great Western Railways and the train maintenance centre, Garrard turntables, And (notorious for unsuspecting visitors) the confusing ‘’Magic Roundabout’’ Americans will not ‘get’ the last part and the joke, but UK drivers who experience it for the first time know what a ride it can be !!
Not a very logical roundabout for the faint hearted and even more logical to avoid it! |
I circumspectly circumnavigated this monstrosity which needs circumscribing, when I was last in the UK. Ok, I am used to roundabouts - after all Canberra is the renowned capital of roundabouts in Australia. Try a 2-km circumference! One near me merges major roads into an interstate highway. Unfortunately it is not round, more oblong. About once a year a truck coming from the side would find the curve tightening, and fall over. So now there are 18 sets of traffic lights, on the one roundabout. Anyone got a copy of the torture track that Plessey had as its logo? |
