That’s a question that each person can only answer for themselves, assuming they can afford it and have auditioned it. There’s no universal absolute value on sound quality.
Linn Bedrok LP12 Plinth Upgrade
Linn has a new plinth upgrade for the LP12. Wow, over $11,000 USD!
Showing 42 responses by newton_john
You shouldn’t be shocked at the price of the standard Klimax LP12. If you take account of cartridges and phono stages, it’s about the same as the cost of a Technics SL-1000R. Second hand Klimax LP12s are cheaper, just like other turntables. I bought one last year for a fraction of the cost new including upgrading to current spec. The Klimax LP12 sounds absolutely superb even without the Bedrok. No one is holding a gun to anyone’s head making them do the upgrade. The choice between the Klimax LP12 and other turntables at the same price level such as the SL-1000R is a matter of personal taste and preference. It’s probably not a good idea to make it on the basis of ideology. I knew the Bedrok upgrade was going to be out of reach for me when I bought the turntable, but never say never. |
Lewn, darling. Do the sums properly. I can see the price of the Technics SL-1000R as £18,999 at two UK dealers. The list price of £25,098 for the full Klimax LP12 less £6,050 for the Exstatik cartridge and £3,115 for the Urika phono stage works out at £15,933. That is considerably less than the Technics on a like for like basis. And you could save another two and a half grand on the LP12 by substituting the standard Radikal for the machined one. Linn say that has no effect on sound quality. Personally, I don’t care whether a turntable has direct or belt drive. I doubt if most Linn aficionados, as you call them, that I’ve met would even know the difference. |
I am sorry about spelling your name wrong. Does that mean you don’t love me any more? My original point was that the SL-1000R and Klimax LP12 are in the same ball park price wise. You aggressively contradicted me by saying the Klimax is massively more expensive than the Technics. I showed you evidence from the UK that clearly shows that it is in fact the other way round. If you now want dispute that, I suggest you get hold of the US Linn price list and make the comparison on a fair like for like basis in dollars. I’ll be very surprised if it makes that much difference. |
Prices can’t be insulting. Only people can do that. Manufacturers are entitled to set their prices as they see fit. If you consider a price too high, the remedy is in your own hands. Don’t buy the product. If sufficient people feel the same as you, it will fail in the market. So far, that has never happened to Linn so their track record is pretty good. The Bedrok has been public knowledge for couple of years now. If it’s nothing special in its manufacture, why have none of the companies in the LP12 accessories market like Tangerine produced one cheaper? |
It’s nonsense to say that Bedrok is insulting to anyone, least of all everyone alive and not yet born. Anybody who doesn’t want it can ignore it. In our free enterprise system, it’s open to anyone to market a similar product for less money if they can. Linn don’t have a monopoly on LP12 plinths.. Calm down for goodness sake. |
I saw some comments by a guy who had heard a direct comparison between the BooPlinth and Bedrok. I think it was in one of the Linn Facebook groups. He said that he preferred the BooPlitnth. Ok, it’s only one person’s opinion, but at least it suggests it’s not a slam dunk that the Bedrok is better. That’d be pretty amazing considering the £6,000 price difference. |
As I said, it’s only one guy’s opinion. Linn do have a very clear idea of what better means. However, I’m a little surprised that one or two people appear to be spending £8,750, without first listening. I guess they just have to have the latest thing. It’s not just a matter of it being better. It’s also a question if whether it is enough of an improvement to justify spending that much money. As we have discussed before, everybody has to make their own call on that. Although I’m not surprised that some people do have faith in Linn’s upgrades. Their reputation is built on past performance. I can’t think of one supposed upgrade that wasn’t an improvement. |
I am pleased to hear the BooPlinth was a success for you. I did see one at an audio show. Unfortunately, it wasn’t in use at the time so I can’t comment on its sound. My turntable is now back in action after a few weeks with a fault. It’s fantastic to have vinyl again. I just don’t get the same pleasure out of streaming Qobuz or local files on a DSM. |
@daveyf there’s potential reasons why Linn are confident of that:
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Linn’s target market for the Bedrok is existing owners of the Klimax LP12. Their choice is whether to stick with what they’ve got or upgrade to a Bedrok. No doubt, they will be some who go for the upgrade. The mere existence of the upgrade is not going to cause those who don’t upgrade to suddenly do an about turn and sell their turntables so they can buy Regas instead. I am not at all sure why you think the typical consumer like Dover’s opinions on the LP12 have any bearing on this. It’s not a matter of luck that you’re not an Exakt user. It was the result of choices that you’ve made. |
Your second paragraph is complete nonsense. The price of the LP12 relative to other turntables hasn’t changed at all. What has happened is that Linn, not for the first time, have launched a additional level of the turntable above the current Klimax LP12. This is not going to make any difference to the sales of the existing LP12 range of products. Why should the existence of an additional option put people off the LP12 and push them to other brands anymore than they are already inclined? It is actually a positive as LP12 owners now have another level to aspire to, even if they don’t want it or can’t afford it at the present time. How on earth can that make the LP12 less competitive as you imply? As always, any development in the LP12 orbit brings out all the Linn bashers and those who are jealous of people with greater spending power. Why give them any more encouragement with that spurious argument? |
Of course, you and other sophisticated consumers will make decisions about turntables as you see fit. That is as it should be, Where you are completely wrong is to claim that the game has changed because the price of the LP12 has increased. It hasn’t increased at all. The Majik, Select and Klimax versions and all other permutations of the LP12 available up to now are as competitive with other turntables as they have ever been. The fact that we now have a new Bedrok version of the LP12 doesn’t change that. You are talking as if the Bedrok has become compulsory. Clearly it isn’t. Yes, the Bedrok version of the LP12 will be competing in a higher price bracket, but with a higher level of performance. I don’t know how well it will sell. Or even if Linn care about that. They may be relying on upgrade sales to existing Klimax LP12 owners. For all we know, it might give Linn access to a new market segment. I can’t say. The only indication we have is that they appeared to have done very well out of the considerably more expensive LP12-50, despite the chorus of naysayers online. So it is a fair presumption that they know what they are doing here. |
In that case, we are in agreement. I have already said that the new Bedrock version of LP12 enters a new segment of the market, different from where the current Select and Klimax configurations are positioned. No one can know for sure how successful this venture will be. As I am not currently considering any turntable purchases, the number of competitors the LP12 has is neither to my liking or disliking. These are not football teams to support, merely products that some people may chose between. It’s not a matter of being a fan of anything. We’ve already been through the various reasons why a Klimax LP12 owner might chose to upgrade to the Bedrok. I don’t subscribe to your somewhat jaundiced view that those who follow this route are blind and besotted. |
Linn do machining of Klimax cases out of solid blocks of aluminium. So I guess the machining of the Bedrok is not beyond them, it must just suit them to outsource it. The Bedrok has been sculpted out to the extent necessary to accommodate the sub chassis, Urika, etc. It comes with a top plate already attached. Here’s what Linn say on their website. Make of it what hou will.
Bedrok™ for LP12 is the first-ever, plinth performance upgrade from Linn. Formed of orthogonal layers of beech placed under extreme pressure and heat to create an entirely new, solid and massive material, this engineered, ultra-dense wood has negligible resonance and superior acoustic isolation.
Rock solidThe LP12 plinth affects everything. Everything is mounted to it, and every component depends on its stability, mass, and resonance characteristics. With more than double the density of a standard LP12 plinth, Bedrok™ is uniformly solid, heavy, and ultra-low resonance.
Reach beneath the surfaceBedrok™ technology makes each component the plinth houses perform better. It’s an holistic upgrade which improves every aspect of your LP12 – more pace, tighter bass, greater insight, and greater enjoyment! |
There’s just one more thing in relation to what you say above. It’s not a straight choice between upgrading a Klimax LP12 to Bedrok or selling it to buy another brand of turntable. I would suggest that a far more likely option for most owners is merely to stick with the Klimax LP12. Anyone who’s actually heard the current Klimax LP12, particularly with the synergy it has in an appropriate Linn Exakt system, would be aware that this is bound to be the default position. Whatever the competition may be, this is still an amazing sounding turntable. Miles better than it was even a few years ago before Karousel, etc. People don’t just became dissatisfied with their turntables overnight because a new upgrade has become available. In any case, selling it to buy another brand of turntable is unlikely to be a cost effective option. |
“@newton_john Again, your post is not really my point.” It is hard to pin down what your point is.
“I’m sure you are correct that if a LP12 Klimax owner is currently happy with his table, he won’t be selling it, and certainly not at a loss. Plus, like you mention, the Klimax LP12 is an excellent table.” So far so good.
“But for those who are looking at the upgrade path, as the expense of upgrades increases to the point where the competition looks better and better, then my point is that a consumer who is well educated on what the competition offers and on the turntable market in general, will certainly look elsewhere.” Not necessarily so. As the price of the upgrades increases, so does the performance. Surely, by adding the Bedrok to its range of products, Linn decreases the chances of a Klimax LP12 owner looking towards other brands.
“Whether that consumer will pull the trigger on an alternate option is the chance that Linn is apparently willing to take.” That is just the nature of the free market.
“Personally, and I think I have mentioned this before, at the price of the Bedrok upgrade, plus the cost I have already attributed to my Linn, I would be shopping the used market...and maybe even the new market at higher prices.” And personally, I will be sticking with my current turntable and maybe do the Utopik for Radikal upgrade when it comes. But what you and I would do is not necessarily representative of the market in general.
“I do feel that the Linn LP12 Majik has a very good appeal to the new buyer who is looking for an entry point into the high end market of tables.” Agreed. The Majik LP12 appears to be Linn’s loss-leader to pull new people into the LP12, so they have more owners to sell upgrades to in future. There’s a much larger pool of potential buyers at this level than there is for turntables as expensive as a new Klimax LP12.
“BUT, at $40K plus for the LP12 Klimax with Bedrok..or even at the $60K that is/was being asked for the LP12 50th, then as a consumer,if those prices are affordable, I would also most likely not have an affordability issue with a table that was say $100K. This brings into question a factor that I question whether Linn’s marketing arm has anticipated??” You’ve lost me here. Are you saying that someone who can afford $40K is just as likely to spend $100? I would doubt that – it is a massive jump. It remains to be seen whether the Bedrok becomes a success for Linn. However, the LP12-50 did sell. |
“That is exactly what I am saying. If a hobbyist is willing to pull the trigger at a price of $40K or $60K then yes, I am pretty certain that this very same hobbyists can afford a $100K. Otherwise they probably shouldn’t be pulling the trigger on either.” The $60K LP12-50 is history now and it did sell to people who’d didn’t spend $100K. It is a bold claim that a customer with £40K to spend on an LP12 is likely to suddenly decide to lash out an extra $60K on top of that. In any case, these customers are extremely rare. To say that they don’t walk into the average HiFi store every day would be a vast understatement. My dealer said that has never happened to him. Every single one of them is an individual case, so we can’t generalise about them.
“One question...and I think this is maybe where we differ: At what price do you decide that the upgrade cost of the LP12 is a bridge too far?” How long is a piece of string?
“IOW, the cost to acquire the latest and greatest Linn upgrade now puts it squarely in competition with a table that you suspect betters the platform in all ways ( maybe even in most ways)” What does IOW stand for? Not Isle of Wight, I presume. As I have said before, that puts an improved configuration of the LP12 into a new market segment. This can’t possibly mean less sales for Linn.
“My question does assume that you have knowledge of what the competition offers, something that I am unsure whether you ( maybe most UK based Linnies?), or for that matter Linn themselves, are truly cognizant of!” I am confident that most people who have bought a turntable that they are happy with don’t waste time researching hypothetical alternatives. If you’d seen Linn’s factory and met Gilad and the other people there, you’d realise that they will most definitely have researched their markets. If they didn’t do that, they would have come a cropper years or even decades ago. |
I can only speak as I find. Sorry to hear you’ve experienced problems. Linn are a relatively small company and it’s a big world. It’s bound to face some challenges. Yet, I have a friend in North America who is happy with his local Linn dealer. There is at least one dealer in the UK who has LP12 customers in the US. My dealer just sent an LP12 to Africa. It’s not all bad.
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That’s very interesting. I always thought that anyone trained by Linn could do it as well as anyone else. The guy who looks after me now has 35 years experience. That may go some way to explain why I have enjoyed vinyl so much more recently. Maybe he learned a few tricks along the way. I put it all down to Urika II. Of course, upgrades may have been involved too. Also, I have been puzzled why the turntable takes a couple of sides or more to warm up fully. It doesn’t really sing until the third or fourth album. It was not like that before. |
Thank you. Just to explain, it wasn’t the same LP12. I sold my original turntable in a fit of madness five years ago. About two years ago I started to have a yearning for vinyl again. My dealer lent me an LP12 that had been traded in. It was essentially the same as my old turntable, except it had Urika II instead of Urika I. It sounded streets ahead of my old turntable. So eventually after much soul searching, I bought it at a reasonable price. I put the improvement down to the Urika II working so well with my Klimax DSM/3 Hub. In the light of your comments about LP12 fettlers, I do wonder if there might be more to it than that. Of course, there may same other factor in play. Funny you mention bearing oil. I was just watching a video of Linn’s Gordon Inch building a Bedrok LP12. He adds a few extra drops of oil in the Karousel to get exactly the right level. I’ll ask my dealer about the warm up time. Now I think about this, it has been most noticeable since I had Radikal and Karousel upgrades fitted. Also, that coincides with winter.
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Since you mention the title of this thread, it is in full “Linn Bedrok LP12 Plinth Upgrade.” It’s about a potential upgrade for a turntable that I own and you don’t. Not much point in you considering the upgrade if you don’t have the turntable. Incidentally, if you were to take up Davey’s suggestion, the Bedrok would be worthy of consideration. The Majik LP12 with Bedrok could be an alternative to the Akurate, now Selekt LP12 or even the Klimax LP12. At least one dealer is offering a dem of all three configurations side by side. I plumped for a second hand Klimax last year before the Bedrok became available. Maybe, I’d choose differently now. |
@dover The guy is Gordon Inch at Linn. I found him to be very approachable. He’ll no doubt be interested to hear your views on turntable set up. https://www.facebook.com/share/1Bx1f5zKML/ Let me know how you get on.
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Since all you guys love Linn Products and the LP12 so much, I am sure you’ll want to wish Ivor Tiefenbrun a happy 79th birthday. Here is a little bit on him that I lifted from Facebook. “Born on March 18, 1946, Tiefenbrun founded Linn in Glasgow, Scotland, in 1972. Linn’s first product was the iconic “Sondek” LP12 turntable which is still in production today. The LP12 challenged the prevailing belief that loudspeakers were the most critical component in an audio system. Tiefenbrun emphasized the importance of the source, asserting that a high-quality turntable was essential for accurate music playback. Under his leadership, Linn Products expanded its product line to include a range of audio equipment, from loudspeakers to digital music systems. Tiefenbrun’s commitment to precision engineering and innovation has earned Linn Products a reputation for excellence and reliability. His dedication to pushing the boundaries of audio technology has garnered a loyal following among audiophiles worldwide. In recognition of his contributions, Tiefenbrun was appointed a Member of the Order of the British Empire (MBE) in 1992. His legacy is one of relentless pursuit of perfection, a passion for music, and a commitment to delivering unparalleled listening experiences. His impact on the industry continues to inspire both seasoned audiophiles and newcomers alike.“ |
Hero worship? Don’t think so. On the one hand, he did great work promoting the importance of the source in hifi. On the other, he’s a Conservative. So feet of clay for me. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-11484322
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The CD12 was great back in its heyday. If anyone still wants one, Peter Tyson are selling one for about £4,000. I heard it a few months ago against a Klimax DSM/3 Hub and a Klimax LP12. Sadly, the CD12 was outclassed by the newer sources. Still, anyone one wanting to play CDs could probably do worse.
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You might find what you’re looking for here. https://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Karousel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond-like_carbon Hope that helps.
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Fascinating Richard. It’s almost like everything is connected in some weird way. I also had experience of X-ray crystallography in a small way in the lab when studying Physics in the seventies at what is now the University of Westminster. I also had a great uncle who’d been some sort of technician/instrument maker at Cambridge and had worked with some of the great men who’d done much of the Physics that I was learning about. It wasn’t until later that I realised I'd missed the chance to ask him about them. |
The price of the Bedrok is small fraction of the extra cost of the LP12-50 above the regular Klimax. I don’t see why the price of one should restrict Linn on the other. One is one off unique special design and the other is a standard upgrade for all LP12s. The former was a limited run of a couple of hundred, but the potential sales of the latter could have been huge if it weren’t for the high price. It may well be that it would have been more expensive for Linn to do the machining of the Bedrok in their own factory. I understand that it is a messy process. They’ve always outsourced loudspeaker cabinet building. The reason they cancelled the Komri was that there was a minimum number of cabinets for reordering that made it uneconomic to continue beyond the initial run. It seems they have opposite problem with Bedrok - being only able to produce them in limited numbers. |
It is striking how little progress has been made in fundamental physics since I was at university fifty years ago, despite the huge expenditure incurred. So far, string theory hasn't produced a single experimentally testable finding. The only tangible result we have is the confirmation of the Higgs Boson which was postulated in the sixties. The incredible technological advances we've seen have been based on physics that was already known in the sixties and seventies.
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"I suspect these very same folk would have little problem with the same looking Bedrok if it was priced at three times the current ask. Question is what price is it that elicits push back??" I can’t imagine Linn would have sold many Bedroks at $33,000 each. That would have made the upgrade as expensive their top turntable new with arm, cartridge and phono stage. Remember very few Klimax LP12 owners paid that much in the first place - the vast majority have upgraded in steps over many years or decades. Some like me bought second hand. Gilad has said that they design products to sound as best they can make them. Then they set the price to make their required profit margin. It isn’t in their interests to set prices any higher as they’d sell less product. Having said that, I think they may have been tempted to go for a higher than normal margin with the Bedrok because they can only produce them in low volumes anyway - a kind of rationing by price. I am guessing here, but it does fit. It is a very expensive turntable upgrade in comparison to Linn's other offerings. $11,000 rules me out, but who knows I might have been interested at half that price. |
The LP12-50s are all gone. Linn didn’t have the capacity to make the Bedrok plinth upgrade until they’d fulfilled all the LP12-50 orders. The improved sonic performance of the LP12-50 is not entirely due to the plinth. Also, there were other costs going into it than just the plinth. I really don’t think the average LP12-50 customer would care what has subsequently happened with the Bedrok upgrade. It takes nothing away from the specialness of what they bought. OK, that specialness wouldn’t appeal to the likes of you and me, but they look at it differently from us. The only person I know who bought one is the director of a hifi retailing company. All other things being equal, there’s no way Linn would charge more than they have to for an upgrade. That just isn’t in their best strategic interests. It’s a fact of life that the more a product costs the less units are sold. The more top notch LP12s are out there and the more competitively priced they are, the better it is for the future of Linn. They envisage more LP12 upgrades in future and need a market for them. They are not going to shoot themselves in the foot by unnecessarily pricing their products any higher than they need to be to pay for their R&D and sustain their profits. That would risk killing the golden goose.
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There may be the odd dealer that still has an LP12-50 that they ordered not allocated to a specific customer, but that doesn’t change what I said. Don’t resort to the low trick of distorting what I said by quoting part selectively without the provisos. I thought you were better than that. Take a deep breath and read it again in context carefully with an open mind for goodness sake. Don’t act like one of the rabid Linn haters. Of course, Linn are in it to make money, but no strategically savvy company is going to chase excessive short term profit to the detriment of long term success. Linn are privately owned and not subject to the pressures of the demands of the stock market wanting to make a quick buck. They’ve been at it for more than fifty years now. Note that as I said previously, it’s possible in the case of the Bedrok that Linn may have applied a higher margin than normal because supply is limited - rationing by price. Let’s be nice and be measured in our posts. Avoid the smart ass comments please. |
What you point to is all amazing technological progress of which we can be proud. My point was that it is all based on physical principles that were already established when we were young. As far as expanding our knowledge of these physical principles go, I find progress to be disappointing, especially given the huge resources expended. We have a lot of unanswered questions. Maybe like at the start of the twentieth century, we are on the threshold of some amazing new breakthroughs and a new golden age of physics. Alternatively, physics may become a dead science - I certainly hope this is not the case.
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@daveyf The way you took part of my argument out of context and added "??? LOL. OK." was glib and disingenuous, not to mention downright rude. You can add your dear leader with his 20% import tariff to list of middle men pushing up the price of Linn Products in the US. Unless of course he has a last minute change of heart on a British carve out, given the balance of trade between our respective counties. |