Linn Bedrok LP12 Plinth Upgrade

I would not be surprised if Linn realized after the 50th Anniversary Addition sold out very quickly there was a market for that level of cost / performance. Honestly there are probably a lot of us old guys out here that have a lot of money and are willing to spend a little on their systems just for fun. 

The new Bedrok plinth for the LP12 is being discussed extensively on the web.

Probably what is brought up the most, is the very high price. The price puts the new plinth and table into the realm of some very fine turntable competition. Something that should be checked out by anyone considering the combo, IMO.

Also, IME, the entire rest of the system needs to be optimized first, along with the room and power supply from the wall before such an investment should be considered for the table. Otherwise, i doubt that the full benefit of this plinth will be heard.

Looks like Baltic Birch plywood, a great stiff, low resonance form of wood (most popular in it's 19mm/13-ply form). Art Dudley made the base for his TD-124 out of the stuff. It’s also great for equipment racks and/or shelves.

If it really is Baltic Birch, then it is horrifically overpriced.  I heretofore thought the plinth of the 50th Anniversary LP12 was made from a densified wood, like Panzerholz, which is expensive to buy and very difficult to machine, somewhat justifying the high cost. I also thought the new plinth upgrade for ordinary LP12s would be the same as the plinth designed for the limited edition version. If the plinth upgrade really is made of Baltic Birch, which is a good choice but very pedestrian (see Lenco Heaven), then there is no possible justification for the high price, in my opinion. Furthermore, it would be easy to make one yourself or have it made by a skilled furniture maker, for much lower cost.

@lewm   I think the new plinth is made from a composite wood material that essentially is like Panzerholz in its density. Apparently, the CNC machining is very time consuming and complex, resulting in the pricing. That and the fact that Linn kind of painted themselves into a corner with their LP12 50th Anniversary pricing...at a mere $60K! With the main difference between the current Klimax model and the 50th being the Bedrok plinth...and a price increase of $30K!! 

From the link info:

Bedrok™ for LP12 is the first-ever, plinth performance upgrade from Linn. Formed of orthogonal layers of beech placed under extreme pressure and heat to create an entirely new, solid and massive material, this engineered, ultra-dense wood has negligible resonance and superior acoustic isolation.

So it IS Panzerholz-like or it IS Baltic Birch.  One or the other.  What is the base price of the latest version, Klimax?  I am guessing  in the $20K range.  If you own one already and now want the plinth upgrade for $9K or $11K, that's a lot of moolah. You could buy a Technics SP1000R and a Minus K platform and have change left over.

@lewm   The current Klimax model LP12 is priced at $30K in the US. The new Bedrok plinth adds appx $11K to that price. There are a number of competing tables at that price or slightly below. Whether Linn will be successful with this very pricey mod remains to be seen...although I know of at least one owner who has already ordered the Bedrok. 

I guess then that the wood used to form the plywood is Beech, not Baltic Birch. But "placed under extreme pressure and heat to create an entirely new, solid and massive material."

Is "plinth" the term the English/Irish/Scottish/Welsh use for what I’ve always called the "base" of a spring-suspended turntable? I like how they spell flavour, humour, and whilst.

I have a good friend who works with German sourced Panzerholz.  Yes, it is very difficult to work with but with modern CNC machines, it mills quite nicely although the “work time” is relatively slow.  I mentioned the Linn $11k plinth to him and he thought it was ridiculously priced and that some third party company will buy one, scan it, and produce a clone at a reasonable price.  

Thanks for the link.  Wow the Klimax LP12 (sounds like an adult movie) starts at the same cost of the new SUV I bought my wife.  Incredible looking and I’m sure sounding equipment for dreamers and those with the money to afford it without having to sell their car.  

Hey you furniture manufacturers in China here’s an opportunity to undercut Linn! China is already making clones of high-end amps. Plinths should be easy to fabricate and have considerable profit margin!

I am shocked, shocked I tell you, to learn the cost of a Klimax LP12 plus and minus the new plinth.  I suppose it is reluctantly acceptable to a person who already owns and loves the LP12.  I admit that I have a bias in the opposite direction; I prefer direct drive turntables and even a modified and modernized idler drive turntable (my Lenco), over any belt drive except maybe the Dohmann, among high end belt drives I have actually seen and heard, and I have not heard many in the high price category. Allowing for the possibility of buying a pre-owned turntable, which mylogic seems only recently to have discovered, there are a myriad of choices at and below the $40,000 "price point" that I would prefer.  However, I mean no disrespect to LP12 fans; the performance is probably way better than I imagine.

China? You could certainly have a Panzerholz plinth made locally in the USA for way less than $11K.  Talk to Albert Porter; he has been making a beautiful complex Panzerholz plinth for the Technics SP10 Mk2 and Mk3 for many years, probably right there in Texas.

The simple description of the process of manufacturing basic plywood is: glue very thin layers of wood "under extreme pressure and heat to create an entirely new, solid and massive material."

I'm waiting to actually see one of these new plinths in person. The "orthogonal layering" description has piqued my curiosity, as I'm wondering if the layers of beech are interwoven, interlocking, or merely stacked. I'm confident the layers are at alternating angles.

So, it remains to be seen: plywood or unobtainium?!?

Looking at the new Bedrok plinth, it is a somewhat complex inner shape with several areas milled out. Linn have also countersunk metal fasteners into the areas where the various mounting screws attach. The price asked includes a new stainless top plate, this time with a very slight rounded corner. Nonetheless, the top plate is for all and intends exactly the same as the current stock Linn top plate, with the very slight exception of the tiny radiuses at the corners…

I’m sure the Bedrok will sound good, question is whether it will sound $11k good??

@lewm

You shouldn’t be shocked at the price of the standard Klimax LP12. If you take account of cartridges and phono stages, it’s about the same as the cost of a Technics SL-1000R.

Second hand Klimax LP12s are cheaper, just like other turntables. I bought one last year for a fraction of the cost new including upgrading to current spec.

The Klimax LP12 sounds absolutely superb even without the Bedrok. No one is holding a gun to anyone’s head making them do the upgrade.

The choice between the Klimax LP12 and other turntables at the same price level such as the SL-1000R is a matter of personal taste and preference. It’s probably not a good idea to make it on the basis of ideology.

I knew the Bedrok upgrade was going to be out of reach for me when I bought the turntable, but never say never.

@daveyf 

That’s a question that each person can only answer for themselves, assuming they can afford it and have auditioned it. There’s no universal absolute value on sound quality.

The price in today's high end audio arena for a Klimax LP12 is ( and I'm afraid to say this), on the lower part of the curve! The trend is for more and more manufacturer's to see how high the consumer will go, before they say...no mas. 

As we all know, there are plenty of turntables, most without arms or cartridges, that are priced in the $80-$300K arena. Pretty soon, we will be looking at a table priced at $1M...and then who knows?? 

Newton, baby: Technics SP1000R price is $20K, brand new from Music Direct. That's $10K less than a Klimax LP12.  (Actually, the Klimax is shown at $32,800 on the Linn website, so more like ~$13K less for the SP1000R.) A new Minus K platform is probably around $5K.

https://www.musicdirect.com/equipment/turntables/technics-sl-1000r-reference-turntable-system/

Obviously, it depends first and foremost on what one wants to own. I realize that most Linn aficionados do not want to own a direct drive TT.

@newton_john  Agreed. To some folks, the price of the new Linn 'Bedrok' plinth is chump change...and will easily be worth the money asked. For the rest of us, the decision will be more personal and based on finances. Hopefully, Linn will sell the number of these that they hope for...and will maybe offer a trickle down version at a more 'favorable' price in the future. 

Meanwhile, I am hoping for a new replacement of the old Ekos-SE tonearm. However, looking at the new pricing plan at Linn, said tonearm would most likely be priced in the stratosphere! 

@lewm   You bring up a very good point. As the price of the Linn LP12 Klimax version rises, so it gets closer and closer to competition that may be not only better value, but also superior sounding. Some Linn folk believe that the Klimax LP12 cannot be bettered, yet I think this is simply because these very same folk have not had enough experience to really know what the competition offers. I am a big Linn fan, but I do not delude myself by thinking that the table cannot be bettered--- for a price. 

To me, this is where I think Linn's pricing stagey could end up hurting them...as the more 'experienced' listener will then turn to alternatives in the market...

They may not be there yet, but I think they are knocking on the door. 

This is part of a discussion on an ongoing Linn LP12 thread

@lewm

Lewn, darling. Do the sums properly. I can see the price of the Technics SL-1000R as £18,999 at two UK dealers. The list price of £25,098 for the full Klimax LP12 less £6,050 for the Exstatik cartridge and £3,115 for the Urika phono stage works out at £15,933. That is considerably less than the Technics on a like for like basis.

And you could save another two and a half grand on the LP12 by substituting the standard Radikal for the machined one. Linn say that has no effect on sound quality.

Personally, I don’t care whether a turntable has direct or belt drive. I doubt if most Linn aficionados, as you call them, that I’ve met would even know the difference.

It’s Lew M, not Lew N. I live in the US, not in the UK. The price on the Linn website is $32,800. The price of the SP1000R at Music Direct is $19,999, or something like that. The list price of both TTs does include a tonearm. So, for a US resident, there is a roughly $13K difference in price, in favor of the Technics. However, I was not aware that the price for the Linn Klimax also includes a cartridge (AND phono stage?) If the Linn price does include a phono stage, then I do stand corrected. But that does not make the price of the Linn LESS than that of the Technics. They would be about the same here in the US, unless you posit that the Linn cartridge and phono are a phenomenal value.

I don’t. use the term "aficionado" as a pejorative. If you have owned the same TT for 30 or 40 years and have upgraded it along the way at high cost, and if you defend that TT on internet websites against its critics, then the term aficionado applies, in my parlance anyway. I’ll admit to being an ESL aficionado, for example, since I have owned nothing but ESL speakers of one kind or another for more than 45 years. You could also say I am an aficionado of OTL amplifiers to drive ESLs. I also beg to differ with you on Linn owners. They are an intelligent lot who certainly do know the difference between belt-drive and direct drive.

@lewm

I am sorry about spelling your name wrong. Does that mean you don’t love me any more?

My original point was that the SL-1000R and Klimax LP12 are in the same ball park price wise.

You aggressively contradicted me by saying the Klimax is massively more expensive than the Technics.

I showed you evidence from the UK that clearly shows that it is in fact the other way round.

If you now want dispute that, I suggest you get hold of the US Linn price list and make the comparison on a fair like for like basis in dollars. I’ll be very surprised if it makes that much difference.

an insulting price,

Denon DK-300, $354. in 1981, including the dust cover, 65mm thick

JVC 7 layer composite plinths are 59mm thick, also with dust cover

Linn's is 66mm thick, no special composite, just beechwood, glue, pressure.

Sony made a rare composite plinth, I can't find it quickly, going out the door now

@elliottbnewcombjr

Prices can’t be insulting. Only people can do that.

Manufacturers are entitled to set their prices as they see fit. If you consider a price too high, the remedy is in your own hands. Don’t buy the product. If sufficient people feel the same as you, it will fail in the market. So far, that has never happened to Linn so their track record is pretty good.

The Bedrok has been public knowledge for couple of years now. If it’s nothing special in its manufacture, why have none of the companies in the LP12 accessories market like Tangerine produced one cheaper?

newton_john

It’s Insulting to every person alive and not yet born.

And no research, no new technology, I prefer the look/scale/properties of Baltic Plywood

http://Sony’s BMC, Bulk Molding Compound

The cabinet made of Sony’s Bulk Molding Compound (BMC).

Long a fixture in Sony anti-resonant design, BMC is carefully formulated for high strength and high internal loss.

Like steel, it has the rigidity required for its structural purpose. But unlike steel, BMC steadfastly resists vibration and resonance.

BMC consists of calcium carbonate (a principal component of marble), glass fiber reinforcement and unsaturated polyester.

I’m joking about the baltic birch, and it might be a poor choice,

but Linn's is just a lot of thinner layers of beechwood veneer, and nothing but pressure and glue, not separate layers transmitting differently and synergistically,

Or, I’m wrong, it could be a few pregnant termites pressed together at strategic vibration absorbent locations, a proprietary design from years of research for sure.

Satisfying Curiosity

I assumed (you know I got kicked in the assss for that) that Sony long ago had developed it's own BMC, but this just popped up, perhaps they just used some stuff available to all

4 brand names of BMC available to all

@elliottbnewcombjr 

It’s nonsense to say that Bedrok is insulting to anyone, least of all everyone alive and not yet born.

Anybody who doesn’t want it can ignore it. 

In our free enterprise system, it’s open to anyone to market a similar product for less money if they can. Linn don’t have a monopoly on LP12 plinths.. 

Calm down for goodness sake. 

newton_john

ANYONE who would even take the Bedrok seriously, much less buy it,

is ’not yet born’, because their brain is not yet functioning. Less smart than the aforementioned pregnant termite which can at least resonate at the right time in the right place if properly trained.

@elliottbnewcombjr 

Congratulations. That’s the weirdest post I’ve ever seen.

The Linn Bedrok plinth will appeal to someone who already owns the Klimax model. To some folks, the upgrade price is chump change...

I know two Klimax owners who have already put their order in. Remember, someone paid $1M for a banana attached to a wall with a piece of tape...everything is all relevant to your income. 

daveyf

you might have surmised, with the recent rise in the cost of termite food, I'm hard pressed, nearly as much as the Bedrok.

newton_john

right here on our site, more for Bedrok fans who must have Rocks in their Heads

Rocks

I'll stop fooling with you now,

@elliottbnewcombjr   Nice post...not.

@hipsterjefe

Orthogonal means at right angles.  So each sheet in the ply is laid with the grain going at right angles to the one below it (and above it).  Just like ordinary plywood.

Extreme heat and pressure have profound effects on wood and carbon. Think how coal and diamond are created.

Living wood contains lots of water.  As it dries, porous holes are left.  Under heat, wood deforms plastically, retaining its heated shape when it cools.  Add lots of pressure and the holes are squeezed up, making the material denser.

There is a plantation of pine trees near me that was burnt in 2003.  The winds were so strong that every dead tree is bent in the same direction, frozen in time, with the upper trunk parallel to the ground.

not my proudest moment, but you two should accept some blame for taking me or Bedrok seriously.

I have not heard a Bedrok plinth...as such, I cannot state whether or not the impact on the SQ is worth it to me. But I can state that I will not denigrate or venerate the upgrade until I have had some experience with it...

The price asked obviously makes it a target for folks who cannot budget it, but that in no way means it is not worthy.

I had assumed, (like the Denon, JVC and Sony Plinths) that it was solid with only cutouts as needed for more substance. Seems it’s mostly Hollow within.

Does it come with adjustable isolating feet? From 'footfall' comments, it seems all these years they should have been researching proper options

Elliot, The spring suspension isolates the chassis, motor, platter, bearing, etc, from the plinth, at least that is my understanding without having owned an LP12.  So I would think of the plinth as being outside the suspension system. One would have to be careful adding further isolation that affects the plinth, since any additional external suspension might spuriously interact with the springs, producing oscillation in the worst case scenario. 

Incidentally, I own a Denon DP80 that came to me with the DK300 plinth and a Victor TT101 that came to me with its OEM plinth. I ditched the DK300 in favor of slate, and I heavily modified the TT101 plinth by (1) replaced the armboard with a solid aluminum copy to which I added mass and further rigidity from below, and (2) added about 20 lbs of mass and constrained layer damping to the plinth by bolting to it some large pieces of solid aluminum, from below. The OEM TT101 armboard was a joke in the light of our current understanding of the need for rigidity, mass, and coupling to the bearing. I can't swear to it now, but I think the DK300 is made from MDF, which to my ear adds an obvious cardboardy coloration.

I just knew this thread would not disappoint! On another note, I'm feeling fortunate that my floor is a concrete slab, so I don't have to worry about dreaded "footfalls." After reading about this on Audiogon, I went over to my turntable while it was playing and jumped up and down; my eyes and ears did not detect any change in the music.