Linn Bedrok LP12 Plinth Upgrade


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Showing 14 responses by mylogic

Did anyone ever compare the 80s Linn LP12 with a Logic DM101 back in the day?

Five years ago l restored a 1980s Logic DM100 MK2 electronic and made no modifications at all. The turntable just plays records with no fussing or need for ‘fettling’ The plinth is so heavy and robust with a 8mm solid aluminium sub chassis. A unique three point six spring suspension (plus the centre spring for heavier arms) makes this turntable a very good buy. Set it up and just play…..

l recently replaced the ‘basic’ fitted Syrinx LE1 arm with an Audio Origami rewired Syrinx PU3. The arm just bolts straight on to the aluminium sub chassis so no separate sound degrading arm board. I have decided to put away all the ‘upgradeitus’ syndrome as this turntable (for me and my opinion only) will be the one to keep.

 

l would love to know what others know about Logic and their plinth. It appears to me anyway that they very much nailed their plinth design 40 years ago. As far as l know this spring configuration was never adopted by any other manufacturers.

@lewm

AR XA… l am acquainted with that deck…. And still on some peoples top ten turntables of all time

 

The damping you mentioned for the DM101 was only a fix for if the springs had stretched. Normally caused if the deck was transported and the sub chassis was not screwed up (to bottom out the suspension)

l know this deck like the back of my hand now.

Check ‘Youtube Logic DM101 boing boing’ for the famous Logic Bounce. You may need Facebook to access it.

@lewm

The Logic turntables never really broke into the US marketplace so that’s probably why you never came across the range.

The DM101 was well regarded for its natural deeper bass extension and neutral sound primarily because of its substantial plinth.. I found it not finicky and easy to match a wide variety of arms which bolted directly onto the one piece aluminium sub chassis. My DM101 mk2 electronic was the last in the series and once set up with any arm l mounted it has needed little maintenance, just oil and belts.

Logic relied on Syrinx to manufacture their tonearms which was a healthy working arrangement for two small British companies. Logic eventually engineered their own in-house arms and bought in ‘branded’ cartridges (probably Goldring) with the Datum IIS being their most successful tonearm and now highly sort after. I have known people buy other decks with a Datum IIS just to get hold of the arm.

Logic fell by the wayside in the late 80s with many saying they over engineered the turntables versus selling price trying to break into the market. They sold them too cheaply trying to gain a market share to survive, and by then CDs had entered the fray.

@noromance

Well explained definition of tweaking and tinkering.

Your example, ‘l have a well-fettled LP12’ made me smile…..

l expect those with one have had an equally well-fettled wallet over the years if the TT has been incrementally upgraded?

Hobbies like this are nearly always a quest, and cost is but part of the journey.

 

@lewm

Damped suspension

The logic bounce l referred to is excess downforce applied to the spindle while playing a record. The sub-chassis will violently bounce up and down and the cartridge will not leave the groove. Also no change in the pitch of the recording playback. The deck will recover as if nothing has happened. That is also true of footfall…..no effect on the turntable, it is quite oblivious to it.

The Logic DM101 in its various forms never had damped springs. Any tweaks on that model were due to the scarcity of replacing stretched springs after hit and miss results of sourcing replacements from basic hardware stores. Often a damping tweak was tried to match the characteristic bounce if the new springs were too weak.

Of the higher quality turntables circa 70s and 80s l have owned, Garrard 401, Thorens TD124 mk2, CJ Walker 55, Systemdek III and the Logic DM101, none from the start have ever had damped springs.

l believe you mentioned a Garrard 401 in your system and were sourcing a new plinth?. My early series 401 (with the flush mount strobe light) was mounted in the huge ‘SME Plinth System’. The plinth base and depth was so big to accomodate the widest and deepest decks. The cover was of similar height to the plinth and designed to take the tallest 9 and 12’’ arms. It became unwieldily in my living room and absolutely dominated it. That was why l parted company with the set up in the 80s…..it was a bad move looking back now! The idea of having two turntables in a lounge back then would have been unthinkable, but now is not too much of a wierd idea.

@daveyf

An old friend of mine, now sadly upstairs and now looking down on us kind of worshipped his Hi-Fi. He never stuck with the same brands and I was always conveniently right behind him when he was upgrading and l bought two turntables.

l remember the saying he was always coming out with and on reflection a parable of sorts….

‘’A good turntable should be seen, and not heard!’’

 

Please take this in good spirit……l am sure he was just talking about wow and rumble.

 

@lewm

@daveyf

 

 

 

Is it noise or is it really there?

Not talking about noise from the turntable but from the mechanics of ‘cutting’ a record.

Do you find it interesting to hear things between the tracks?

l had never noticed there was ‘information’ buried between tracks until l bought my Logic DM100. It was definitely more obvious and there after l upgraded the arm to a Syrinx PU3 and a hyper-compliance Goldring G900IGC.

 

Out of interest is there anyone who has detected this phenomena?

l can only describe it as a very faint subsonic ‘nub’ sound right in the middle of the few seconds gaps between tracks. It’s not on all records but more often found on 60s and 70s pressings. I can only deduce that the cutting engineer physically stopped the turntable at these points (maybe to cue tapes) leaving a short modulation when restarting the cutter. Or maybe he had to lift the cutter and drop it again when starting the next track? That’s the only explanation l can think of.

 

Interesting l have only noticed this more recently with much older battered ears!

 

AFTER THOUGHT.

Could it be master tape edits (splices) if whole albums were assembled this way?

 

Any old cutting engineers out there? The noise is similar to the resulting splices when made to the optical soundtracks on 35mm film which l noticed during my cinema projection years.

@daveyf

Dire Straits Private Investigations ‘’breaking milk bottle’’ and ‘‘intimacy’’ test with a pussy….yes there is a ‘musical’ one in there. Knopfler implies with his guitar that a cat knocks over said milk bottle.

It is quite a good test because lots of people have that LP.

It can be useful for example if you can hear it on head phones but not on your main speakers. You would know better speakers are required (or the opposite of course)

Also a great trackability test for a cartridge.

Hearing the breaking glass is not the only consideration either….it is how clear and distinctive it is in the mix. Is it only just audible or is it right there in the alleyway. Also there is a lot going on in that recording and most people just miss it. I mention this as just one test for setting up speakers to achieve all the 3 goals you described.

@lewm

Pre-groove inter-modulation.

Yes that can be easily a case if a heavily modulated track is present perpendicular to where the stylus is tracking. There is some heat generated by the cutting stylus which can meld into the adjacent track….the echo effect you rightly mentioned.

l am not talking about this but about a sound (nothing to do with any iner-modulation) that is totally alien to anything recorded intentionally. I am just listening funnily enough and l am hearing this ‘nub’ between every track of Quincy Jones’s soundtrack of ‘In Cold Blood’ RCA RD-7931 (1967)

Another example from memory is Manfred Mann’s original soundtrack to ‘Up the Junction’ again from the 60s on Fontana label which was where l first noticed this.

Strange but true…..

One other thought to share….

l always tell friends to use Dire Straits ‘Love Over Gold’ album as a test record for a whole Hi-Fi system. If You can’t hear the breaking milk bottle in the ‘Private Investigations’ track, your Hi-Fi is not as ‘Hi’ as you think. If that breaking milk bottle is not there, then it is most likely the front end is just not retrieving it.

@richardbrand

Yes Richard, you have the SME Plinth System l mentioned. You could buy all the parts separately. When l bought the 401 from a friend he had the deck mounted on a hi-fi bench with just the Perspex lid. As he was an electrical engineer he was able to order me just the base and counter spring hinges to make the full system.

All your descriptions confirm this…. sides progressively bigger from the base up. Four large rod spring adjusters with black knobs to level the sub-chassis in each corner. Silver trim 360 degrees around sides. Very heavy cover with counter balanced spring assembly to keep the lid up. Holes in the back for mains and RCA cables. It was a MONSTER and could creak at times (thick grease on spring bases fixed this).The sub-chassis did not bounce very much and was quite rigid. The 401 needed a really substantial plinth and this construction was the best option available. We now know solid granite or very heavy wooden bases do the job much better.

Everything is as you describe. There are always some on eBay in the UK as more were sold here of course. The classic Garrard set up in the early 70s in the UK was considered to be….

Garrard 401

SME 3009 or the 3009 improved

Shure V15 mkII or mkIII (or Goldring G800 or G850, but they didn’t track so well)

SME Plinth System.

There has always been a debate on which was the best of the two turntables. It comes down to personal choice in appearance or operational preference. Underneath there was little design difference. The 401 would clunk a lot using the twist start/stop control. The corner levers of the 301 were easier. BBC DJs would normally position the stylus half a revolution from the start of the track next to be played and the 301 was much easier to engage the motor and supposedly had quicker motor up to speed performance.

The BBC STORY

The 301 was the standard BBC radio turntable in the 60s and was the most loved by the pioneering DJs. The 401 was intended to replace these radio stations 301s as Garrard wanted to maintain this status of suppliers of said turntables.It backfired on Garrard as the DJs demanded that the 301s be retained and put back because the 401 was not so easy to use. The DJs preferred the controls and quicker take up speed performance of the 301. The batch of 401s l was told were re-boxed and then just chucked into a corner of a room somewhere. About 12 years ago someone was selling four mint 401s in their original boxes on eBay saying they did a BBC clearance on old gear that were ‘surplus to requirements’. I remembered all this and was able to tell the seller as to how they found their way there. I informed him of this story and he was selling each one far too cheaply (about £600 each) ……..l should have bought them all myself.

UPDATE

l don’t believe the SME Plinth System appeared until the 401 was in production so your model 301 was probably rehoused. SME would cut out the sub-chassis to your chosen turntable and SME arm model position if requested.

 

@richardbrand

301 & 401

The Garrard’s were mainly sold as just decks…..no plinth.
Lots of hi-fi enthusiasts as they were called then simply mounted them as required.

SME….

The company has stopped supplying individual models now and only sell them fitted on their SME turntables l believe. No back catalogue of spares for older stuff from the 70s is now commercially viable. It is a shame the UKs leading arm designer has now abdicated and left the building.

@dover 

That reply to @richardbrand went right over my head…….

Englebert Humperdinck (real name Arnold Dorsey) lives just up the road from me in Devon, England. Shall l ask him if it was him?

 

@richardbrand

Resurrecting the Garrard 301

l’m afraid the rejuvenated 301 (from old stock rebuilds) is now looking more expensive than what you quoted. Loricraft are making a packet of money even if they can only achieve one deck sale every two weeks. It has become a sellers market. 301’s are good but a tall order value for money leap for that price point in all sincerity. Obviously l have not heard one and is just an opinion.


Garrard sold up their name to the Brazilian company just as the 501 was being designed and prototyped. The new company shifted manufacture to Brazil and did a terrible job with the later Garrard products which were rubbish. They were badly constructed and looked dumbed down caricatures of the old brand and ruined the Garrard name. A total mismanaged operation and it failed to interest old fans or garner new serious consideration. No wonder SME were able to buy it back. Leak and Wharfedale are similar resurrections and now back in the market place in Europe.

In 2018 the CEO of SME at an audio fare told a reporter that it was intended in the near future to re-release the SME heritage arms over time one by one. This did not materialise. I don’t think SME will commit to rebuilding the 301 from scratch (or even the rubber mats) l expect the restored 301 projects they are selling via Loricraft will be for a very exclusive club, not really considered value for money but a status symbol toy.

Check out Lenco Heaven website for their take on the whole affair. I bet the original Lenco owners may have missed an opportunity to do the same thing with their famous GL75 which quite possibly was the greatest best kept secret deck of the 60s & 70s. So many of these a old stalwarts are being rebuilt with new arms. Partly due to the unique drive system and enhanced performance in new plinths this turntable is a sleeping giant.

@dogberry

Yes it’s quite a complicated whose-who with the Garrard franchise over the years…

 

Swindon was in the past a great base for everything ‘round’

Great Western Railways and the train maintenance centre,

Garrard turntables,

And (notorious for unsuspecting visitors) the confusing ‘’Magic Roundabout’’

Americans will not ‘get’ the last part and the joke, but UK drivers who experience it for the first time know what a ride it can be !!

 

Not a very logical roundabout for the faint hearted and even more logical to avoid it!