Linn Bedrok LP12 Plinth Upgrade

The new Bedrok plinth for the LP12 is being discussed extensively on the web.

Probably what is brought up the most, is the very high price. The price puts the new plinth and table into the realm of some very fine turntable competition. Something that should be checked out by anyone considering the combo, IMO.

Also, IME, the entire rest of the system needs to be optimized first, along with the room and power supply from the wall before such an investment should be considered for the table. Otherwise, i doubt that the full benefit of this plinth will be heard.

@lewm   The current Klimax model LP12 is priced at $30K in the US. The new Bedrok plinth adds appx $11K to that price. There are a number of competing tables at that price or slightly below. Whether Linn will be successful with this very pricey mod remains to be seen...although I know of at least one owner who has already ordered the Bedrok. 

@lewm   I think the new plinth is made from a composite wood material that essentially is like Panzerholz in its density. Apparently, the CNC machining is very time consuming and complex, resulting in the pricing. That and the fact that Linn kind of painted themselves into a corner with their LP12 50th Anniversary pricing...at a mere $60K! With the main difference between the current Klimax model and the 50th being the Bedrok plinth...and a price increase of $30K!! 

Looking at the new Bedrok plinth, it is a somewhat complex inner shape with several areas milled out. Linn have also countersunk metal fasteners into the areas where the various mounting screws attach. The price asked includes a new stainless top plate, this time with a very slight rounded corner. Nonetheless, the top plate is for all and intends exactly the same as the current stock Linn top plate, with the very slight exception of the tiny radiuses at the corners…

I’m sure the Bedrok will sound good, question is whether it will sound $11k good??

@lewm   You bring up a very good point. As the price of the Linn LP12 Klimax version rises, so it gets closer and closer to competition that may be not only better value, but also superior sounding. Some Linn folk believe that the Klimax LP12 cannot be bettered, yet I think this is simply because these very same folk have not had enough experience to really know what the competition offers. I am a big Linn fan, but I do not delude myself by thinking that the table cannot be bettered--- for a price. 

To me, this is where I think Linn's pricing stagey could end up hurting them...as the more 'experienced' listener will then turn to alternatives in the market...

They may not be there yet, but I think they are knocking on the door. 

The price in today's high end audio arena for a Klimax LP12 is ( and I'm afraid to say this), on the lower part of the curve! The trend is for more and more manufacturer's to see how high the consumer will go, before they say...no mas. 

As we all know, there are plenty of turntables, most without arms or cartridges, that are priced in the $80-$300K arena. Pretty soon, we will be looking at a table priced at $1M...and then who knows?? 

@newton_john  Agreed. To some folks, the price of the new Linn 'Bedrok' plinth is chump change...and will easily be worth the money asked. For the rest of us, the decision will be more personal and based on finances. Hopefully, Linn will sell the number of these that they hope for...and will maybe offer a trickle down version at a more 'favorable' price in the future. 

Meanwhile, I am hoping for a new replacement of the old Ekos-SE tonearm. However, looking at the new pricing plan at Linn, said tonearm would most likely be priced in the stratosphere! 

The Linn Bedrok plinth will appeal to someone who already owns the Klimax model. To some folks, the upgrade price is chump change...

I know two Klimax owners who have already put their order in. Remember, someone paid $1M for a banana attached to a wall with a piece of tape...everything is all relevant to your income. 

@elliottbnewcombjr   Nice post...not.

I have not heard a Bedrok plinth...as such, I cannot state whether or not the impact on the SQ is worth it to me. But I can state that I will not denigrate or venerate the upgrade until I have had some experience with it...

The price asked obviously makes it a target for folks who cannot budget it, but that in no way means it is not worthy.

I just replaced my original Afro fluted plinth with a new Linn Oak plinth. Looks amazing and sounds better. Personally, i think the Oak plinth looks far better than the new Bedrok...maybe not as great an increase in SQ, but the price difference is major.

@ricco275   +1. I was thinking the same thing, but also thought that maybe that was just my dislike of the aesthetics. 

@olskool   Nice to see you here again. Question, do you rank the Booplinth improvement in the same area as the bearing..ie. Cirkus to Karousel?  For me, that was one of the best upgrades regarding SQ, and also value wise. 

Personally, I have a feeling that a Booplinth gets one at least 90% of the way to the Bedrok plinth, but at a far lower price. The aspect of diminishing returns for money spent will be very evident with the various plinths, IMO.

@noromance  Agree. The banana junk was actually sold for $6.2M to a crypto genius. All of this could be considered as a spit in the eye to the waged, as you pointed out.

It is odd that the plinth would have such an impact on a spring suspended turntable. I can easily understand the power supply, bearing, sub chassis, but plinth?
The fettlers I have talked to in the past all assured me that the plinth was the last area to gain any SQ…which did make some sense. Certainly when I swapped out my original Afro plinth for a new Oak plinth, there was a step up in SQ, but not comparable to the bearing swap out.

@newton_john The term ’better’ is extremely subjective in our hobby. To one person, ’better’ means the system sounds louder without strain, to another ’better’ might mean the system plays softer with more realism. IMO, in order to truly determine if the ’Bedrok’ plinth suits one’s taste in reproduction more than another upgrade, one has to actually hear a Linn LP12 with Bedrok in one’s own system..and room. Then determine for oneself if the cost of said improvement ( if any) is worth it to the particular persons pocket book.

I am aware that some folk order the upgrades without first hearing what their $$’s will buy them...personally I fail to see the wisdom in that approach.

@weiserb There you have it…as the LP12 price increases, the options do as well.
I would certainly be looking at what the competition offers at the price of just a new plinth, never mind the full cost of the LP12 Klimax with Bedrok!

Linn must believe that their customers are so loyal that what the competition offers is irrelevant.

@newton_john  You make some good points, but to the typical consumer, like Dover above, the idea of a high priced table that may or may not compete with the competition, and one that needs a specific set up, is an issue.

i’m more in the middle of these two positions, personally, I like the table enough to consider it a keeper, but as the price for the upgrades sky rockets,I’m more open to looking at the competition. Plus, I think weiserb correctly pointed out, there are alternatives at certain price points that might be superior. 
Your point about the Exact users and others who need the Urika phono stages is valid, luckily that does not apply to me, and I would suspect the majority of folks.

@noromance while I agree with you, the price of the new Bedrok plinth seems excessive, I also know that unless a very high price is asked for high end anything, potential buyers assume it is less worthy.

Looking at the latest issue of The Absolute Sound, we see numerous pieces of gear that are priced at or above the price of a brand new car! The complexity of just about any new vehicle, never mind the number of parts and engineering prowess that has come into play, makes all high end audio gear look ludicrous on its face.

@newton_john No question, you are correct that Linn’s target market for the new Bedrok plinth are existing Klimax owners. I know of one such owner who has ordered the new plinth.
My point is that as the price asked increases to the sky, personally I would be becoming more discerning and make sure that the table I am considering will perform at the highest level. I would not, and will not, just keep jumping on the Linn upgrade band wagon without at least educating myself as to what the competition offers at similar price points.It does surprise me that the person whom I know who has ordered the Bedrok has not done this, but he falls into the category of high end consumer that shops by price, assuming the higher, the better.

@newton_john you seem to fail to comprehend that as the LP12 increases in price that it now encounters more able competition. To the more sophisticated consumer, that now leads them away from the Linn turntable. Remember that the table still has several issues that are, at least to the advanced hobbyists, problematic. One is the fact that the table cannot utilize multiple tonearms, two, the fact that the current arm is not competitive at the highest level, and three, the table will always be susceptible to issues with set up, requiring a ‘fettler’ ( many of whom in the US are becoming extinct). I can go on and on. But don’t get me wrong, I am still a big Linn fan, just not a blind and besotted fan…the type that Linn are hoping to sell their plinth to.

Also,your second sentence is complete nonsense, why because by adding over $11k to the table for the cost of just the plinth, Linn have now absolutely changed the ratio of cost/value to their competitors.

@newton_john I am not saying that the entry level price of the LP12 Majik is any less competitive than it was before, nor the other variations up to the Klimax. But I do think that when you add the cost of the new Bedrok to the Klimax, or probably for that matter even the Akurate model, you now encounter, as a consumer, a larger range of competitors that may or may not be more to your liking. Obviously, no one has to opt for the Bedrok plinth, but the question becomes if they do, have these very same buyers done their homework?

@newton_john  I think you misread a lot into my posts. I did not state that all Bedrok buyers are 'blind and besotted'. I did say that I am not 'blind and besotted' when it comes to the various Linn products. There certainly are, at least IMO, a lot of Linn consumers who this applies to ( blind and besotted when it comes to the line). Not necessarily all of the Bedrok consumers, like you assumed I stated. 

Also, notice what @yoyoyaya  posted above. The price of the table he references equates to JUST the price of the Bedrok plinth in the US! 

@newton_john No worries mate, it’s just a hobby. Now back to discussing the many attributes of the Linn LP12 table.

@yoyoyaya That aspect makes it even worse! I have to question how many folks will pony up for the Bedrok, vs. simply going in another direction with another table, at a price like you brought our attention to.
Interesting thing, and I’m not sure if this is totally correct, on a Linn forum, there is a well informed member who informed the group that Linn do not actually manufacture the Bedrok plinth themselves!  Instead it is farmed out to a secondary vendor, who specializes in woodwork. Apparently, Linn do no woodwork themselves. This might explain some of the price attributable to the Bedrok..maybe?

@lewm Presumably you are talking about the Booplinth? You ask some great questions, why no bracing etc.,

There have been a number of aftermarket plinth makers, some involving all metal plinths, various wood combo’s etc., none of these have been that successful from a SQ perspective.

Also, there is certainly a premium attached to a plinth that comes from Linn themselves, even if they are re-badging the product. I suspect that Linn did not want a bamboo plinth, as they would be in direct competition with the Booplinth, and they knew that they needed to exceed the ability of that product. Apparently, this has been accomplished with the new Bedrok...at a price!

@newton_john Again, your post is not really my point. I’m sure you are correct that if a LP12 Klimax owner is currently happy with his table, he won’t be selling it, and certainly not at a loss. Plus, like you mention, the Klimax LP12 is an excellent table. But for those who are looking at the upgrade path, as the expense of upgrades increases to the point where the competition looks better and better, then my point is that a consumer who is well educated on what the competition offers and on the turntable market in general, will certainly look elsewhere. Whether that consumer will pull the trigger on an alternate option is the chance that Linn is apparently willing to take. Personally, and I think I have mentioned this before, at the price of the Bedrok upgrade, plus the cost I have already attributed to my Linn, I would be shopping the used market...and maybe even the new market at higher prices. I do feel that the Linn LP12 Majik has a very good appeal to the new buyer who is looking for an entry point into the high end market of tables. BUT, at $40K plus for the LP12 Klimax with Bedrok..or even at the $60K that is/was being asked for the LP12 50th, then as a consumer,if those prices are affordable, I would also most likely not have an affordability issue with a table that was say $100K. This brings into question a factor that I question whether Linn’s marketing arm has anticipated??

"Are you saying that someone who can afford $40K is just as likely to spend $100? I would doubt that – it is a massive jump. It remains to be seen whether the Bedrok becomes a success for Linn. However, the LP12-50 did sell."

That is exactly what I am saying. If a hobbyist is willing to pull the trigger at a price of $40K or $60K then yes, I am pretty certain that this very same hobbyists can afford a $100K for a turntable. Otherwise they probably shouldn’t be pulling the trigger on these LP12’s in the first place.

One question...and I think this is maybe where we differ: At what price do you decide that the upgrade cost of the LP12 is a bridge too far? IOW, the cost to acquire the latest and greatest Linn upgrade now puts it squarely in competition with a table that you suspect betters the platform in all ways ( maybe even in most ways)

My question does assume that you have knowledge of what the competition offers, something that I am unsure whether you ( maybe most UK based Linnies?), or for that matter Linn themselves, are truly cognizant of!

As an example of this...again look at what @yoyoyaya  posted above. Just one example of many.

@newton_john Let me relate something to you...which may or may not be relevant to our discussion, I had a conversation with a Linn rep about a year ago, this person was in Scotland ( because at the time they had fired or dropped their US rep, preferring to rep the line in the US from the UK!!!) . I informed him that in the USA, the distances between states and cities can be vast. Unlike in the UK wherein there are a number of ’fettlers’ within a small distance, in the USA, that is many times not the case. For instance, my old ’fettler’ just retired resulting in the next guy who does this work being about 200 miles north of me...and he is in 90’s!! None of this info was known by the Linn rep. So, when you tell me they have researched their markets...perhaps re-think that statement. IOW, in other words...what you see as the Linn norm and understandable in the UK, may not apply worldwide. ;0)

@newton_john  Thanks. I didn't really experience problems with Linn, I experienced problems due to the lack of local dealer support. The gent whom I went to to 'fettle' my Linn is as stated, hundreds of miles north of me, BUT he was well worth visiting as his ability to dial in the table is superior to anyone I have used before, including my old and retired 'fettler'. This aspect is one that I think is somewhat overlooked by Linn owners. There are 'fettlers' and there are 'fettlers'. I never realized how much a true expert in set up vs. a merely competent one, can extract the last bit of SQ from the LP12! Hard to know when this is the case, as I had assumed, perhaps like most folks, that the prior set up was great. The table certainly sounded very good before, but since I have had the chance to hear what the best of them can accomplish, it is somewhat eye opening! 

@newton_john Your assumption about the Linn training was my assumption too. That was drastically altered once i heard what the new ’fettler’ was able to accomplish with my table. Not that the old tech was bad, just that there were a few things that he obviously did that weren’t 100% correct. Minor detail things that clearly the new ’fettler’ got 100% correct. ( I can’t explain exactly what these were, but the results speak for themselves). Probably this is why folk in the UK seek out the likes of Peter Swain and others of his experience level.

Here in the US, as I alluded to before, these ’fettlers’ are unfortunately a dying breed. Not sure if they are being replaced, but it does not seem so. That is one of the biggest aspects that concerns me going forward with the table, to be very honest.

You question why the table takes a few more sides to come into tune...that is a great question! Maybe it is something like this:

My new ’fettler’ showed me that the oil level in my Karousel bearing was not quite correct, it had oil in it, but not quite enough. So, IOW ( in other words) my old ’fettler’ put in the oil, but didn’t have enough experience to know exactly how much was required. He put enough in to not do damage, but that was not quite correct. Perhaps something like this is occurring with your table?

@dover I have heard a Linn LP12 without a plinth, it did nothing for me. I do agree, the new grommets/mushrooms are also nothing special, having heard that mod as well, i wouldn’t consider them either.

@dover Sorry to disappoint you, but the current LP12 does not fall out of tune, once it has been set up correctly, it stays that way. Linn addressed the problem years ago,

@yoyoyaya The idea that the table needs to be set up by someone who has the know how to do it correctly, is by no means a myth. The tolerances and the design has been improved immensely since you last set up the table, as evidenced by your comment.

While folks have a point that the LP12 was derived from designs like the AR etc., it has now evolved into a far superior product. 

I question how many here who have posted so far have actually heard a new Linn LP12, even if it is a Majik ( entry level) version? 

@mylogic  Your friend was 100% correct. Noise generated from the table is not beneficial. Which is one of the reasons why Linn has gone to significant effort to minimize the input from the table to the upstream components. For example, the new Karousel bearing is certainly a lot more accurate than the very good Cirkus bearing. Accurate and quiet. With my set up, I can put the stylus into the lead in groove and there is still dead silence until the music starts to play. It's a bit unnerving when you first hear this, as one thinks there must be something wrong with the system, but that S/N ratio is important..as your friend was alluding to.

@lewm Obviously if the record has pressing defects or scratches etc., it will sound. I am talking about a clean pressing that does not have these issues. 

The bearing of the Linn ( and I think in reality, all turntables) is probably the most important aspect of the whole affair. There is where I now believe one gets the biggest benefit to the SQ. Hard to know this ( hear this?) when so many table manufacturer's are not really concentrating on this aspect. Linn is..and the results are clearly audible.

@lewm  While you might expect that a dead silence be portrayed by any decent table when placing the stylus into the lead in groove, you might be surprised how rare that experience is. I have heard numerous high end tables that cannot do this 'trick' even though they are set up correctly. All of my prior tables and even my LP12 with Cirkus, could not manage this. There was always a slight noise from the speakers, not complete silence. 

@mylogic  While I agree with you that the Dire Straits breaking milk bottle is a test, it is a very low lying test. IMO, you would have to have a pretty veiled set up to miss that part of the track. A better test would be whether your system can portray depth, intimacy and scale...which very very few can. Scale in particular is very hard to portray, usually requiring a large space and large speakers with excellent dynamic contrast. In my many years as a hobbyist, I can count on one hand systems that can portray scale, depth and intimacy...all three. Most folks think their systems can portray these things, in reality most portray ( at best) one of the three.

@mylogic  The interesting thing that occurs to me is that in this hobby, many times folk are not aware of the failings, or shortcomings, of their systems. Only upon an exposure to what they are missing can they discover what is either a) missing from their systems portrayal or b) a solution to the issue. 

Unfortunately, since it is just as easy to go backwards in system development as it is to go forwards, the opportunity for doing more damage is there. 

For example, I have heard on many occasions, folk whose rooms are not able to develop accurate bass, or more intimacy in quiet recordings...utilize fixes that are detrimental and result in even less pleasant sound. Sometimes these very same folk realize the error and rectify it, most times they do not...and the system begins to go down a slippery slope. Easy to do. 

@elliottbnewcombjr The new Karousel bearing is reportedly machined to within 5 microns ( is that a lack of precision???). What do you believe your Thorens bearing is machined to?

BTW, you do realize that your SME example relies on a knife edge bearing and all that it brings?

@lewm  I just took a look at your system. Nice. Have you had the opportunity of hearing what a new LP12 Akurate or Klimax model would be like in your system? 

I suspect you might be pleasantly surprised. 

@elliottbnewcombjr  I have seen the video you posted and others that are more complete. The bearing is precise without having to be a tight fit! Remember, the bearing point is what the whole shaft rotates from. The bearing point is diamond hardened. Please do a little more research.

@lewm I agree, plinth material is an interesting subject. I recently changed out my original Afro fluted plinth from the 80’s for a new Linn Oak plinth with the various mods like the corner bracing etc., the new plinth has two benefits for me: One is that it is much more aesthetically pleasing and two, it does sound slightly better. The Afro plinth was the last piece remaining from my original 80’s era LP12.

The new Bedrok plinth does not look as aesthetically pleasing to my eyes, but i can see why the extra rigidity would be beneficial. Only issue is the price asked, which I frankly think is way over the top. ( Due partly I believe to the fact that Linn are outsourcing this part).

@newton_john Tonight I asked a well respected mechanical engineer if the Linn bearing that Dover and others claims is not put together accurately, is in fact that. The gentleman told me that clearly the folks denigrating the Linn bearing design really do not understand how this particular Linn bearing functions.

Dover and the other naysayers clearly have a lot to discover...as you are pointing out.LOL.

@newton_john indeed, there are folks on this thread who assume a lot about the Linn table, you know what they say about folks who ‘assume’ things.

@dover My discussions with the mechanical engineer was in reference to the bearing, since you stated the shaft in the bearing would be “ as loose as a goose”.

This told me and was confirmed by the mechanical engineer that you really did not comprehend how the Karousel bearing functions.
As to the setup of the tonearm, I might agree with you, somewhat. The Ekos SE has very limited set up adjustments, one of the issues I see with that arm.

Where did you see the part where you say the lid is dropped? I did not see that in the video, nor did I see the part where you say he drops the tonearm carelessly onto the table..!!

@newton_john   +1

@lewm After I showed the engineer the video, he remarked that the bearing is a single point oil bearing. If I remember correctly, he mentioned that the oil is what acts as a surface for the tension between the shaft and the walls. I believe he mentioned that the shaft should not be that tight to interfere with rotational ability.

I believe it was also mentioned it is somewhat like a cam shaft sitting in an oil bearing of a car. He noticed the fact that the point was diamond hardened, stating this was a necessity for longer wear and that the precision of a reported 5 microns was also good.

@richardbrand That’s an interesting point. I tend to agree with you that the Bedrok is not flashy enough to appeal to the folks who shop primarily with their eyes..and not their ears. 
However, since there have been a few Bedrok sales so far, I guess folk seem to believe that the SQ boost is worth it. 
I suspect these very same folk would have little problem with the same looking Bedrok if it was priced at three times the current ask. Question is what price is it that elicits push back??

@richardbrand  It would seem that the marketing people believe that in high end audio, the sky is the limit. 

Yet, there seems to be significant price hesitancy in the used market at the moment. I know of a couple of fine folks who are trying to sell their used gear at considerable discounts and still not getting any activity. 

@newton_john Part of the price that Linn asks for the Bedrok has to do with the fact that they outsource the manufacturing of this plinth.

Another thing I believe is that in some ways Linn painted themselves into a corner with the price of the 50th anniversary model. They could not price the new Bedrok plinth at a small fraction of that model, as the Bedrok plinth was the main upgrade to the LP12 50th Anniversary.

@newton_john  The problem I think Linn have is that they priced the LP12 50th at a number that is about twice the price of their Klimax model. The main improvement of the LP12 50th over the Klimax is the Bedrok plinth. Therefore, if Linn priced the plinth alone at $25K+ it would be a stretch ( albeit there are folks who would be happy to pay that), and they cannot price the Bedrok at a slightly higher level than a new standard Linn LP12 plinth, as that would certainly hurt their LP12 50th sales; so you see how in some ways they painted themselves into a corner.