I have no desire to produce a Peripheral Frame using a Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Board to be used on a Belt Drive TT.
Individuals I know who know the cost of the Periphery Frame produced as the Bedrok and who both know the LP 12 very well, with access to the TT and are quite capable of producing a Peripheral Frame for the TT, using either of the methods made known in my earlier post using a Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Board have not expressed a interest in producing a design to be an alternative option from their own resource of stored Densified Wood Board, even with the notion that a mark up on the materials as finished design at a 1000% will still be half price to what it would be intended to substitute.
In relation to the use of Densified Wood, Linn are quite late to the Party.
In relation to a Sub Chassis being produced in a Densified Wood, I can only assume if a Brand dedicated to selling a Bespoke Item produced from a particular grade of Aluminum was to produce a replacement Item for such a part in a Densified Wood and then offered it for sale at a 50% + Mark Up on the existing price, this would be the evidence needed to suggest other material is more suitable for a structural purpose than Aluminium.
There is information to be found within the Gon and outside of the Gon, to supply convincing evidence a Densified Wood is a suitable substitute for Metals. With the added bonus of the intrinsic properties belonging to the Densified Wood being much more attractive for managing energies that are unwanted in a audio device such as a TT.
I would suggest a Linn LP 12 owner adopts the usage of a Sub Plinth produced from a 25mm Thick Densified Wood Board, which will be acquired between £100 - £200 if prudently sourced.
Using the Densified Wood Sub Plinth in conjunction with LP 12 will supply a proportion of the benefits achievable by the adding a Bedrok Peripheral Frame. Both will be parity for having the desirable intrinsic properties for improved managing of transferred ambient energies. The unknown is how much a Densified Wood Sub Plinth is able to come close to adding the same benefit achieved from adding the Peripheral Frame. My experiences if the using the material as a Sub Plinth strongly suggests there will be no discernible difference to be discovered, each will offer almost identical benefits through adopting the material type.
Additionally if the Densified Wood Sub Plinth is adopted to be used in conjunction with the LP 12. Careful selection of Footers as the separators most likely to add to overall new quality of performance on offer, furthering the benefits and produce something that shares similar improvement to the alternate bases that can be adopted. The added footers being capable to offer up very similar properties, as if adding the Trampolin Base.
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I’ll be delighted when somebody actually produces a cheaper high performing substitute for the Bedrok plinth rather than just talking about it on an online forum.
Better still if they can also produce a cheaper more effective sub-chassis than the Keel. It remains to be seen if Resin Impregnated Densified Wood is a better material for this purpose than aluminium.
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There are thousands of audio devices now produced from a Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Board, that are designs undertaken in the DIY community for the best part of 20 years. I believe the Commercial offerings using this material type came later.
There is nothing to stop an individual to buy a Board at a Dimension that suits their needs, the dimension for the Board does not have to be the same as that that selected by another.
If a rebating is to be put in place to allow for other parts to be inserted into the rebate, this will be best produced to the tolerance that best allows for the best fitting interface.
For certain TT's although not yet proven, it does seem the remaining material left when the rebate is cut out can be further machined to produce a Part that is usually produced in Aluminium and when in use, has the purpose to function as a Sub Chassis, Parts that are needed for the TT to function such as the Tonearm and Platter Bearing Housing can be attached to such a Sub Platter design.
When it comes to Damping / Dissipation, the intrinsic properties of a Resin Impregnated Densified Wood is much improved over any metal type, the densified wood is as stable a material as a metal is in typical ambient conditions.
Another method for Producing a Plinth that acts like a Peripheral Structure is to produce it from a material that has the required form milled out then cut to the required dimension and Corner Jointed to make a Periphery Structure. A Structure produced like this from a Resin Impregnated Densified Wood will not yield and of the most attractive properties if being compared to a rebated board.
It is a certainty a Board with a improved basic structure to a Board recently used to produce a Plinth can be purchased.
The improved board will need to be produced with a minimum of 50 Tiers of Veneers per Inch Thickness. It is common today to see 0.7mm Veneers compressed to 0.35mm.
The Veneers will need to be laid as a Cross Grain Orientation an the minimum.
A Board cut to the dimension to produce a Plinth, as stated will be approx' £300
The machining cost @ £300 is a guestimate, using info known from others who have used a CNC Service where a program was produced for the CNC. It is very close to being an accurate quote as a one off production.
The cost to produce the Sub Chassis from the rebated board cut out is harder to nail down, but another £300 does not sound too excessive as a one of production.
Using the method to Mill a profile and produce the Periphery with corner Joints will be much less wasteful of materials and may incur an additional cost for the producing the Corner Joints and the bonding together the parts to form the structure.
When the DIY Clone of a Plinth Type does become seen as a sale item, the above is a very accurate guide to show how the costings for materials and forming the Plinth will look.
The costings may also look quite attractive and be encouragement to another, where they are prompted to make an investigation into the viability of such a venture. For individuals with a experience in producing a structure, such a task will be seen for it being a simple wood working task with a particular dimension for the rebate needing to be maintained, the overall dimension is for the end user to decide on. Modern technology makes this type of Task very easy to achieve.
A friend with their own CNC produces Densified Wood Plinths where tolerances for the rebates are produced to 0.05mm if requested. Such a tolerance is sought for the S to P dimension being very accurately produced when a particular Tonearm is only to be used.
I have purchased Densified Wood in a range of thicknesses and to date have Two Plinths produced from this material in a 25mm thickness to the above machining tolerances. I know of near 50 Plinths produced from the Densified Wood material, that are produced between Two different friends that are now in many Countries across the Globe.
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@pindac
That’s great news. I look forward to being able to buy a Bedrok clone for a small fraction of Linn’s price.
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A Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Board that is the dimension the Linn Blank is to be produced at will cost approx' £300 if it is one of multiple cuts from a whole from a whole Board.
The Board will then be CNC Routed and aesthetically finished, I will be surprised if both additional treatments surpass £300.
The rest of the math will be for others, as I don't know the ins and outs of Linn's Overhead and Profit, but it does seen in the UK, there is £7000+ yet to be added.
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In the US, the term "VAT" as it is used in the UK and in many other countries, has never been used, and I don’t see it being applied now that the orange one has declared the new much higher tariffs. The added cost is kept under the table where the consumer never sees it as such. Instead, the retail price just goes up enough to compensate the importer/distributor for the cost of the tariff. A big difference is that if I shop in the UK, and if I produce my passport or other proof of US citizenship, then I would not have to pay the VAT. (At least that is the way it works in Tokyo; Japan also has a VAT. That charge is deducted when I produce my passport.) The same does not apply here for a tariff. Anyone purchasing goods in the US, regardless of citizenship, would be per se paying any added cost related to a tariff. The VAT is a tax levied only at the time of purchase. The tariff is a tax paid at the point of importation into the market where the item will be sold.
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All prices on the Linn website reflect the new, post tariff pricing. Those are retails to you. Only added costs would be US sales tax and shipping if applicable. I am a Linn dealer. If you see deviations it is because we haven’t had a chance to update our sites yet. Linn’s site is accurate.
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It does not work like that normally in the UK unless Linn has some special way of loading the price for US consumers to compare the real cost “back home”
Linn over here would normally quote a retail price inclusive of 20% VAT. Linn may prepay the tariff this end so your shipment will sail quickly through your customs at your cost over here….. Now it makes sense.
Some tariff’s could change (but unlikely with the US/UK trading agreement) before a product even arrives. Some norms we are sure of like death and taxes, but since January 2025 we are not now living in “normal times”
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If all that is real, the higher price probably reflects the imposition of a tariff by us on import of the bedrock. So there wouldn’t be any additional charge to the consumer; he’s already paying the tariff at the new US price. What’s already overpriced gets overprice-per.
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@noromance
“Wow, over $13,970 USD!” + import tariff? A romantic tale, or a noromance?
Someone would have to be totally besotted or blindly in love to pay that.
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"From $13,970" on linn.co.uk
Linn has a new plinth upgrade for the LP12.
Wow, over $11,000 USD!
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The Boo Plinth and Bedroc Plinth are both machined from a Solid Board Material.
Where they differ is that the Material used to produce the Bedroc is a material that is produced for other Industries that are heavily regulated. The benefit of this being the Material the Bedroc Plinth is produced from will when being acquired to be used by the other Industries will have a Standard Attached for the Production to prove it conforms. This as the control ensures consistency across materials and for the Industry, they are assured the product does "as it states on the tin".
Adopting these materials for use in Audio, does not require a Industry Standard to be in place with a Purchase, as there is very little risk of a catastrophic failure resulting in a risk to life.
The Industry Standard for the material, means to the user of it in relation to Audio Purposes, whether it be a DIY Enthusiast or a Commercial Entity, that the material will be very very consistent as the end product being produced.
The Bedroc is a Material known outside of Audio as a Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Board, which is produced using Delignified Wood, where the Veneers are being Highly Compressed in a Heated Vacuum Chamber. The end product typically weighs approx' 1400Kg / m3.
The Boo Plinth is produced from a compressed Bamboo Board that is a not known for the Kg / m3. Typically a Bamboo with desirable properties to serve as TT Plinth Material has been shown at 900Kg / m3. Bamboo Board can be found with a compression that is producing 1100Kg / m3.
Compressed Boards in general are not able to show the same Intrinsic Damping / Dissipation Properties as does the compressed boards which are produced as a Industry Standard - Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Board.
It is the Intrinsic Damping / Dissipation Properties that is the main reasoning for the adoption of a Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Board material by both the Commercial Entities in recent years and the earliest adoption of the materials at approx' 20 years past by the DIY Enthusiast.
I can not recall seeing data produced for a 1100Kg / m3 Compressed Bamboo Board, only the 900Kg / m3 material.
In relation to experiencing Compressed Bamboo material as a Plinth, when used as the Plinth for a Garrard 401 not too long past, and the 401 TT model being one I know very well. I was quick to inform the owner of the 401 in use, the demo of the TT, was to my recollection the very best I had experienced.
,
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@olskool I was also wondering about the Boo Plinth upgrade. My local Linn dealer, the oldest in the city, now close to forty-five years, once told me that the lightest plinth available, that would have been Black Ash, was the best sounding version. I understand the Bamboo plinth being lighter than the Bedrocks compressed Beechwood, could outperform it. I haven't found any comparison reviews, not to mention hardly any mention of the Boo plinth anywhere.
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Only the market will determine if the Bedrok is under-priced, over-priced or right-priced. The market will always be changing, and the more uncertain people feel, the less they will spend on discretionary items.
Get pricing wrong in general, and your company is headed for failure, or at least towards the arms of a corporate raider or new profit-oriented CEO. They know the simplest way to increase profits is to slash Research and Development and we know the simplest way to destroy a tech company is to stop R&D.
The Germans revere their engineers and give them titles the way we identify medical doctors. Not surprisingly, they have a culture which builds companies for the long haul. They also seem to take an opposite path to audio nirvana, using disks where the US favours streaming. Munich Show anyone?
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@mylogic Your logic on tariffs is correct.
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Who was it who said, ‘l love tariffs’. Yes we all know!
From what l understand and pure logic is the 20% import duty….tariff goes straight into the US coffers so Americans consumers just pay more, not the exporter.
With regard to the proposed 20% on Linn products already outlined in posts l say this……
1. The UK has a trade deficit with the US so just that fact and from a sound accounting perspective adding tariffs from the UK is just plain stupid. So no UK ripping off the old US of A from over here.
2. It only makes sense to tariff countries who buy less from you as they are the ones (in your leaders eyes, or perhaps a brain) that arguably have been ripping off the poor old USA.
3. Tariffs are not amazing….they just create trade wars, ruin free choice, inflate prices for the consumer and stifle economic growth.
There….l’ve gone and said it now
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@newton_john In your above post you stated this..” all other things being equal, there’s no way Linn would charge more than they have to for an upgrade”.
Have you seen the price of the new Linn Bedrok plinth! Or, the price of the LP12 50th in the US! Seems like Thomas O’Keefe is having a hard time selling his…on this site at a significant discount! Maybe that should tell us something?
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@newton_john
Maybe like at the start of the twentieth century
A lot of physicists at that time thought there was nothing new to discover - all that was left was measuring things more accurately. Mind you, they had no idea what powered the sun. Then in the greatest failed experiment of all time, Michelson and Morley failed to measure the drift of the presumed aether enabling light waves. The speed of light was the same, no matter how fast you were moving towards or from the thing you were looking at. Then radioactivity raised its ugly head ...
... maybe there's not much fundamental physics left to discover - apart from what consciousness is, and dark matter, and dark energy. Our picture of the world is dramatically different from 100 years ago, and today we can see back about 14-billion years though we cannot see past our event horizon.
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@newton_john
between our respective counties
Hope that was a typo, though the good folk in the state of Canada will be watching closely. Australia buys much more from the US than it exports to the US at the moment, but no reprieve for us!
There are reports that Canada is about to purchase our Jindalee over-the-horizon radar (it bounces radar off the ionosphere to pick up unwanted visitors in very remote regions). Not sure which direction they will be pointing it in!
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@richardbrand
What you point to is all amazing technological progress of which we can be proud. My point was that it is all based on physical principles that were already established when we were young.
As far as expanding our knowledge of these physical principles go, I find progress to be disappointing, especially given the huge resources expended. We have a lot of unanswered questions.
Maybe like at the start of the twentieth century, we are on the threshold of some amazing new breakthroughs and a new golden age of physics. Alternatively, physics may become a dead science - I certainly hope this is not the case.
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@daveyf
The way you took part of my argument out of context and added "??? LOL. OK." was glib and disingenuous, not to mention downright rude.
You can add your dear leader with his 20% import tariff to list of middle men pushing up the price of Linn Products in the US. Unless of course he has a last minute change of heart on a British carve out, given the balance of trade between our respective counties.
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@newton_john
It is striking how little progress has been made in fundamental physics since I was at university fifty years ago, despite the huge expenditure incurred. So far, string theory hasn’t produced a single experimentally testable finding. The only tangible result we have is the confirmation of the Higgs Boson which was postulated in the sixties.
I think it depends on how narrowly you define fundamental physics! The great breakthroughs are best confirmed if seemingly unlikely predictions are discovered later to be true. It took about 100 years before experimenters discovered the gravity waves predicted by Einstein. The Standard Model of particle physics was good theory until the predicted Higgs boson was discovered decades later. Nobody knows if string theory is just a theory, or maybe m-branes fit better?
The Big Bang theory was a nice theory until the predicted cosmic background microwave radiation was accidentally ’discovered’ by researchers who weren’t looking for it, and did not know what it was when they found it! Did not stop them getting a Nobel prize.
To me the most profound recent development comes from detailed analysis of the fine structure of the cosmic background microwave radiation, which is absolutely uniform to within 1 part in 50,000. Cosmology has only recently become a hard science, and the fine structure is believed to come from quantum effects in the very early universe, for the first time linking the very large to the very small. We now have a pretty good handle on the detailed evolution of our universe, and possible multi-verses
We also have another new window into our own evolution, through the mapping of RNA and DNA changes from very early organisms.
I for one am happy with some by-products of pure research, like the www and WiFi. All thanks in some measure to technicians like your great uncle
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@newton_john Look again at the sentence you posted. Unfortunately, it is common practice these days for companies to want to maximize profits. Linn are no different in this regard. The fact that Linn outsources the Bedrok plinth means that they are at the mercy of their supplier. ( yes, supply is limited, limited to the amount they can make!) The price asked of a wooden plinth, particularly here in the US, is bordering on an insult. Why, because among other reasons, there are several respectable complete turntables that one can acquire for similar money, or even less.
We have to remember that there are also numerous middle men involved in high end sales, these folk are absolutely interested in only one thing...maximum profits!
The comments are not ’smart ass’, but they are not naive either!
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@newton_john
‘’Avoid the smart ass comments please’’
Well said sir, Bravo!
Before posting….
Read thoroughly-think about it-formulate your answer-write succinctly.
We can and should observe decorum at all times….it is the bedrok (sorry l spelt that wrong)….the bedrock of civilised society.
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@daveyf
There may be the odd dealer that still has an LP12-50 that they ordered not allocated to a specific customer, but that doesn’t change what I said.
Don’t resort to the low trick of distorting what I said by quoting part selectively without the provisos. I thought you were better than that.
Take a deep breath and read it again in context carefully with an open mind for goodness sake. Don’t act like one of the rabid Linn haters.
Of course, Linn are in it to make money, but no strategically savvy company is going to chase excessive short term profit to the detriment of long term success. Linn are privately owned and not subject to the pressures of the demands of the stock market wanting to make a quick buck. They’ve been at it for more than fifty years now.
Note that as I said previously, it’s possible in the case of the Bedrok that Linn may have applied a higher margin than normal because supply is limited - rationing by price.
Let’s be nice and be measured in our posts. Avoid the smart ass comments please.
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@newton_john I believe there is a LP12 50th on this site for sale. Has been listed for a while now, and at a discounted price. Also, I have heard that they are actually not sold out yet.
"No way Linn would charge more than they have to for an upgrade"??? LOL. OK.
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@daveyf
The LP12-50s are all gone. Linn didn’t have the capacity to make the Bedrok plinth upgrade until they’d fulfilled all the LP12-50 orders.
The improved sonic performance of the LP12-50 is not entirely due to the plinth. Also, there were other costs going into it than just the plinth.
I really don’t think the average LP12-50 customer would care what has subsequently happened with the Bedrok upgrade.
It takes nothing away from the specialness of what they bought. OK, that specialness wouldn’t appeal to the likes of you and me, but they look at it differently from us. The only person I know who bought one is the director of a hifi retailing company.
All other things being equal, there’s no way Linn would charge more than they have to for an upgrade. That just isn’t in their best strategic interests. It’s a fact of life that the more a product costs the less units are sold. The more top notch LP12s are out there and the more competitively priced they are, the better it is for the future of Linn. They envisage more LP12 upgrades in future and need a market for them.
They are not going to shoot themselves in the foot by unnecessarily pricing their products any higher than they need to be to pay for their R&D and sustain their profits. That would risk killing the golden goose.
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@newton_john The problem I think Linn have is that they priced the LP12 50th at a number that is about twice the price of their Klimax model. The main improvement of the LP12 50th over the Klimax is the Bedrok plinth. Therefore, if Linn priced the plinth alone at $25K+ it would be a stretch ( albeit there are folks who would be happy to pay that), and they cannot price the Bedrok at a slightly higher level than a new standard Linn LP12 plinth, as that would certainly hurt their LP12 50th sales; so you see how in some ways they painted themselves into a corner.
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@richardbrand
It is striking how little progress has been made in fundamental physics since I was at university fifty years ago, despite the huge expenditure incurred. So far, string theory hasn't produced a single experimentally testable finding. The only tangible result we have is the confirmation of the Higgs Boson which was postulated in the sixties. The incredible technological advances we've seen have been based on physics that was already known in the sixties and seventies.
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@daveyf
The price of the Bedrok is small fraction of the extra cost of the LP12-50 above the regular Klimax. I don’t see why the price of one should restrict Linn on the other. One is one off unique special design and the other is a standard upgrade for all LP12s. The former was a limited run of a couple of hundred, but the potential sales of the latter could have been huge if it weren’t for the high price.
It may well be that it would have been more expensive for Linn to do the machining of the Bedrok in their own factory. I understand that it is a messy process. They’ve always outsourced loudspeaker cabinet building. The reason they cancelled the Komri was that there was a minimum number of cabinets for reordering that made it uneconomic to continue beyond the initial run. It seems they have opposite problem with Bedrok - being only able to produce them in limited numbers.
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@newton_john
I also had a great uncle who’d been some sort of technician/instrument maker at Cambridge and had worked with some of the great men who’d done much of the Physics that I was learning about
Those laboratory technicians were vastly underrated in my opinion. They had to somehow make, from glass, wood and whatever else came to hand, the vacuum systems and apparatus that led to the discovery of subatomic particles, starting with the electron. Without them JJ Thompson would never has got his Nobel prize.
Their successors staff the large hadron collider at CERN, which cost about $5 billion to build and roughly that much a year to operate. Without CERN, we would not have the world-wide web or proof of the Higgs boson.
At least one US science commentator dates the decline of US science to the cancellation of funding for an equivalent at Fermilab.
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@newton_john Part of the price that Linn asks for the Bedrok has to do with the fact that they outsource the manufacturing of this plinth.
Another thing I believe is that in some ways Linn painted themselves into a corner with the price of the 50th anniversary model. They could not price the new Bedrok plinth at a small fraction of that model, as the Bedrok plinth was the main upgrade to the LP12 50th Anniversary.
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@daveyf
"I suspect these very same folk would have little problem with the same looking Bedrok if it was priced at three times the current ask. Question is what price is it that elicits push back??"
I can’t imagine Linn would have sold many Bedroks at $33,000 each. That would have made the upgrade as expensive their top turntable new with arm, cartridge and phono stage. Remember very few Klimax LP12 owners paid that much in the first place - the vast majority have upgraded in steps over many years or decades. Some like me bought second hand.
Gilad has said that they design products to sound as best they can make them. Then they set the price to make their required profit margin. It isn’t in their interests to set prices any higher as they’d sell less product.
Having said that, I think they may have been tempted to go for a higher than normal margin with the Bedrok because they can only produce them in low volumes anyway - a kind of rationing by price. I am guessing here, but it does fit.
It is a very expensive turntable upgrade in comparison to Linn's other offerings.
$11,000 rules me out, but who knows I might have been interested at half that price.
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@dover
diamond hardening refers to a heating and cooling process used to harden the steel, it is not a coating. The Dohmann uses maraging steel - which is really an alloy, likely including elements of copper and nickel that results in a harder steel than ferrous metals, more stable
I just looked at Dohmann Audio's website and for the Helix One Mk3 they claim:
- Diamond Like Coating Amorphous Material Bearing Friction Modifier (DLC)
To me this looks like the real thing, especially the low friction effect. Of course, the coating may be applied to a hard steel shaft. Many claim to use 'tool steel' but maraging steels are also hard. They are characterised by very low carbon contents but typically are around 15% nickel.
Once upon a time I was a metallurgist, and I do apologise for the naming confusions we promulgate. All steels are actually alloys (mixtures), but the term 'alloy steel' is used where carbon is not the main alloying element. Ferrous metals are alloys where the main element is iron, which is true of all steels.
Hardness in these contexts is measured by pressing a diamond into the metal, and measuring the size of the indentation. Rockwell C uses a conical diamond, whereas the Vickers hardness test uses a pyramid shape. Diamond is harder than any metal, hence my inquiry into what 'diamond hardened' really means.
Just as an aside, I worked at a Vickers subsidiary which was at that time the most modern alloy steel plant in Europe. We made hundreds of grades, and the final test was using an angle grinder to throw off sparks which could be compared against hundreds of samples. The length, shape and colour of the fireworks reflected the underlying composition of the alloy.
Talking of sparks, after working close to three-phase, 110-ton electric arc furnaces with 2-foot diameter electrodes shorting onto cold scrap, I amazed I can still hear. 120-dbA. Mind you, the furnaces were drowned out when rail cars, two at a time, full of scrap, were tippled so the scrap fell down a huge chute into an even bigger bucket. Lots of uncontrolled resonances!
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@richardbrand
…….and marketing…..and at what price
Mylogic…..Always buy hi-fi (except maybe for cartridges) second hand.
Buying second hand will always be a win win.
The same theory applies to buying cars……As soon as a new car is driven off the forecourt you have appreciably devalued it. Buy a car from someone who has recently done just that!
Same applies to hi-fi.
The loss (if any) selling used is far less. ‘’Hesitancy’’ in the used market is probably caused by sellers who after buying at full list price are now asking for ridiculous sums.
Do the Math…..Simples!
After thought….…..remember some things are just too highly priced with sales pitches and marketing hype.
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@richardbrand It would seem that the marketing people believe that in high end audio, the sky is the limit.
Yet, there seems to be significant price hesitancy in the used market at the moment. I know of a couple of fine folks who are trying to sell their used gear at considerable discounts and still not getting any activity.
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@daveyf
Question is what price is it that elicits push back??
Answering that question is why marketing people get paid!
Or to put it another way, is the Pro-Ject Signature too inexpensive to be taken seriously by audiophiles? I am sure it is a tempting upgrade for owners of lesser Pro-Jects ...
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Thanks - exactly what I was looking for. I will read "diamond hardened" to mean a "Diamond-Like Carbon Coating" which is likely to be plasma sputtered onto a substrate such as tool steel in a vacuum under tightly controlled conditions,
No diamond hardening refers to a heating and cooling process used to harden the steel, it is not a coating. The Dohmann uses maraging steel - which is really an alloy, likely including elements of copper and nickel that results in a harder steel than ferrous metals, more stable.
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@richardbrand That’s an interesting point. I tend to agree with you that the Bedrok is not flashy enough to appeal to the folks who shop primarily with their eyes..and not their ears.
However, since there have been a few Bedrok sales so far, I guess folk seem to believe that the SQ boost is worth it.
I suspect these very same folk would have little problem with the same looking Bedrok if it was priced at three times the current ask. Question is what price is it that elicits push back??
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Since the focus of this thread seems to be the retail price of the new Linn plinth, I thought it might be worthwhile to post this extract from Pro-Ject's literature on their most expensive Signature turntable, which has a retail price of 12,000 Euros (my emphasis)
We‘re thrilled to offer these turntables at an extremely attractive price, as the development cost is not counted, as we anyway had to do the research to move forward with Pro-Ject technology in general
Obviously, all the development costs have been amortized in the revenue stream from their mass market products!
Every manufacturer has to cover their costs and make some profit, or they will go out of business. Most manufacturers have high set up costs which have to be funded before the first unit makes its way to market. After that, there are the direct costs associated with each extra unit produced. So in setting a retail price, the manufacturer has to guess how many units they will sell so that the line becomes profitable once it reaches the breakeven number sold. If the price is too high, the number sold may not even reach breakeven.
If the manufacturer only produces high-end expensive gear, they may need very deep pockets. Wilson Benesch have been very adept at getting university collaboration and research grants to offset some development cost, at the time-cost of dealing with government!
Extreme examples of very high set up costs and low production costs include books, semi-conductor chips and polycarbonate disks which all have a unit direct production cost of around a dollar or less.
The above assumes that pricing is set on a rational value-for-money basis, but those rules don't apply to luxury goods where the consumer seemingly forgets about value-for-money and chases status and ego-boosting items. I don't think the Bedrok is flashy enough to fall into the luxury category!
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@richardbrand
Fascinating Richard. It’s almost like everything is connected in some weird way. I also had experience of X-ray crystallography in a small way in the lab when studying Physics in the seventies at what is now the University of Westminster. I also had a great uncle who’d been some sort of technician/instrument maker at Cambridge and had worked with some of the great men who’d done much of the Physics that I was learning about. It wasn’t until later that I realised I'd missed the chance to ask him about them.
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@newton_john
Yes, and I studied crystallography for three years in the Cambridge lab set up by the Bragg father and son pair who invented X-ray diffraction crystallography. Well before computers and computer graphics, and before Crick and Watson deduced the structure of DNA! I can't even remember the names of the 2-D diagrams that showed the 3-D orientation of crystal planes ...
From another thread I've just discovered that Australia makes Dohmann turntables which also use Diamond-like coating for the main bearing.
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Linn has a way of adopting certain outside improvements to their LP12. Case in point, the Bedrock plinth: The British outfit, "houseoflinn", Europe's Leading Linn Specialists(their quote) came up with a laminated Bamboo plinth, The Booplinth, years ago that was machined out of a single block laminated bamboo.
In the August 1984 Page 51, issue of Hifi News And Record Review(J Atkinson was still editor), an article titled,"Sacrilege" by Martin Colloms, had to do with the reason LP12s had this sort of fat bass(personally I liked it and most owners), and he demonstrated the reason for it and a fix for it, the issue centered around the platter bearing/well. The Cirkus wasn't released until (1993?) to address this issue. By the way, I did Martin's fix and it worked marvelously( machinist made the part for me). If you're an LP12 owner, a worthwhile read. I still have my copy. $2.75 at Krochs and Brentanos back then. I think they're fifteen bucks or more now but still my favorite audio journal and authority on audio subjects.
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@richardbrand
No wonder it’s expensive.
Yes, I remember struggling at university with text book representations of three dimensional structures. It’s probably easier now with YouTube, etc.
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@newton_john
Thanks - exactly what I was looking for. I will read "diamond hardened" to mean a "Diamond-Like Carbon Coating" which is likely to be plasma sputtered onto a substrate such as tool steel in a vacuum under tightly controlled conditions,
I admit I have trouble visualising the 'normal' crystal structure of diamond despite animations such as this: Diamond cubic - Wikipedia
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What exactly does 'diamond hardened' mean in this context? I am looking for a metallurgical explanation, please!
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@jasonbourne71
The CD12 was great back in its heyday.
If anyone still wants one, Peter Tyson are selling one for about £4,000.
I heard it a few months ago against a Klimax DSM/3 Hub and a Klimax LP12. Sadly, the CD12 was outclassed by the newer sources.
Still, anyone one wanting to play CDs could probably do worse.
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Buy a Linn CD12 and no need for a fettler!
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@lewm After I showed the engineer the video, he remarked that the bearing is a single point oil bearing. If I remember correctly, he mentioned that the oil is what acts as a surface for the tension between the shaft and the walls. I believe he mentioned that the shaft should not be that tight to interfere with rotational ability.
I believe it was also mentioned it is somewhat like a cam shaft sitting in an oil bearing of a car. He noticed the fact that the point was diamond hardened, stating this was a necessity for longer wear and that the precision of a reported 5 microns was also good.
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