Lightning quick DYNAMIC amp in the under $1000 range

@georgehifi @bstatmeister

Slew rate has nothing to do with dynamics, all it relates to is frequency range and wattage (well, voltage). If two amps have the same max wattage and frequency range, their slew rates are 100% identical.

So what determines good dynamics? Is there any spec or part or mfg process that can reliably tell us this? Or you just have to listen?

bstatmeister OP
So what determines good dynamics?

A fast stable amp (extended FR) , good current ability, decent stiff power supply, that’s under control with low output impedance (good damping factor).

EG: an amp that can "double" its wattage for each halving of impedance. Increase it’s wattage by at least 70-80% from the "true, not understated" 8ohm wattage, say EG: 100w to 4ohm, 180w to 2ohm, 324w to 4ohm.

And the Vidar’s advertised spec, the Schiit can do 8ohm-100w 4ohm-200w and 2ohm-400w (2ohm only one channel at a time driven.)
This means it can do good current. (But I suspect the 8ohm wattage is understated to make the 4 look like it’s doubling)

But still these are very good figures for an amp that’s just $699!!!!, with a return if you don’t like it.
It’s dc coupled with servo and extends out to 500khz -3db!!!!!!!!

Cheers George

So the STA-200 vs. Schiit Vidar is an interesting comparison. What would be the pros and cons of each be? The Vidar seems like it could have the edge with more power and overhead by being able to deliver twice the power when you go down to 4 ohm. Does the the STA-200 do this? There is no 4 ohm measurement that I saw on the AA website. Anyone out there that have tried both? What did you prefer?

Not surprising for a class D amp.

kosst, I think it’s linear, but still just looking under it’s skirt, the Vidar gets my nod by a long way.

STA-200 https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/nuforce03-jpg.17070/

Vidar https://www.schiit.com/public/upload/general/vidar-internal-1920.jpg

@kosst_amojan 
 
Not always true. The Hypex NC400 is stable down to 1ohm. The ICE ASC300 (PS Audio & Emotiva) is stable down to 2.5ohm.

 These are older, but they are great values:
BEL labs 
Aragon 2004

 I admire both of these amps. Anyone else have experience with them? 

george, I have no idea which amp is best. But I have the STA200, check the audio advisor customer ratings and those in the thread I started here before buying it. Not an unsatisfied owner.

I don’t buy the doomsday audiosciencereview write up. Actually had no heard of the website until someone mentioned it RE: the STA200.

Have no pride of ownership thing, its just a fun $499 amp.

Haven't had a chance to try a class D amp, except in my subs.

The STA200 is a class AB, I think, according to AA. Don't think it's class D

Not sure if anyone has mentioned yet but you could get into a used Odyssey Stratos Extreme for a grand. Tough to beat at double maybe triple that price IMO. 

The Hypex NC400 is stable down to 1ohm.
The ICE ASC300 is stable down to 2.5ohm.

And the rest of that story goes.
Because of severe current limiting, my car radio is super stable it can take a dead short all day long so can my walkman, that doesn’t make it an amp that can give huge current down to 1ohm. What a smoke job!!

george, I have no idea which amp is best.

bstatmeister OP asked " So the STA-200 vs. Schiit Vidar is an interesting comparison. What would be the pros and cons of each be?
I said https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/1726421 All you have to do is look at the inside of the two, and if you know what your looking at, for the little difference I would go the Schiit Vidar.

Cheers George

 @mofojo yep...mentioned that many days ago....great amps w Vandersteen 2’s..and lots of other musical speakers...

and with a factory upgrade path in the future as funds allow...

now back to the near endless class D vs all comers, I can read specs debate....

bstat..why not buy both and flip the loser, then you will know and can INFORM us.....

Odyssey Khartago. $995 stock.

The STA200 is A/B. Two aspects to be aware of is that it is very sensitive to input voltage and doesn't provide amy more power into 4ohms than into 8ohms (80wpc). It is a very quiet and clean sounding amplifier well suited to a passive pre and best matched with 6-8ohm speakers. Currently being offered at $429 from Audio Advisor making it a great amp for a budget system when so paired. 

Within my closet of goodies, I can put together a system consisting of: Schiit DAC ($99), Schiit SYS ($50), STA200 ($429), Focal Chorus 706s (latest addition) ($549), Blue Jean LC-1 interconnects ($70), Audioquest Type 4 speaker cables (used $35), steel speaker stands (used $25).  System price $1250. Sometimes substitute B&W 685s (used $300) for the Focals.  

All that said, if I had ~$1000 to spend on an amplifier and the funds for remaining system to compliment, I would purchase the Odyssey knowing it would provide greater flexibility, and better serve if inclined toward an upgrade path.

Peter_s, I own a BEL 1001 MK5, produced in summer of 2007. Probably the single best piece of equipment I own. Great amplifier! It is the reason I don't own an Odyssey. Found it at a dealership in 2011 hidden in the corner.   

OP- you mentioned wanting to improve bass. I'm also using Vandy 2Cs and couldn't get much bass at all no matter which amp I tried. Finally, I played around with speaker position per Johnny Rutan's (AudioConnection) recommendations and found the missing bass by getting the speakers 9" from front wall (measured from back of speaker). 

Tomcarr yes! The acoustic coupler needs to connect to the back wall, just like the 3 series....
big fun !

Good suggestion! On one hand I wouldn't say I hate my behringer pro-amp. The thing is quite a beast (does 450watts/channel into 8 ohms, 750WPC at 4 ohm) Also, weighs close to 40 lb with a huge toroid transformer. But those are built for cranking full blast for hours at a time in pro-audio use scenario. Not sure if I'm missing something by not having an amp meant for serious 2-channel listening. Guess I need to do what tomic says and just buy a couple and see if I can notice a difference. Shoot...always comes down to that doesn't it.

Thanks all for the suggestions. Going to look closer at a used Odyssey stratos, as well. How do they upgrade them? 

Thinking about your situation, why do you feel it is your power amp that seems to be the weakness ? I read up on the amp, and some users are saying it was better than their QSC and Crowns, both of which I owned many. In my remaining arsenal of power amps, I have some Yamaha pro amps and a Smart Theatre Systems TA 242 ( a Hafler 220 on Steroids, biased in class A ), and they all do very well on my Klipsch Lascalas and Heresy 2s. Not to turn this around, but, I have owned Vandys, up to the models 3, and although I understand Tomic and others being fan boys, they were not my cup of tea ( not just Vandys ). Maybe you should step up to the 3s, as they will give you " more ". What other speakers have you owned ? Again, I am not looking to start any trouble here, but, being a retired audio consultant with quite a bit of experience with lots of equipment, I am just saying. Another thought would be, to get a powered sub, and if possible, with some crossover that can roll off the Behringer / 2Cs from handling the last octave or so, and take over from there. The Vandys will be more open and dynamic, and it might be that difference you are looking for. These are my thoughts. Over and out. Enjoy ! MrD.

Thanks Mr Decibel. That’s just it, I don’t know if I’m missing anything with my amp, other than it is one Fugly box. But I have it tucked away where it won’t offend anyone. All I care about is SQ any way. I did the fan mod, so the thing is quiet as a mouse to boot. Just not sure how it compares to an "audiophile amp" since I’ve never owned one. Not sure if I’m missing anything and I suppose I won’t know until I try no matter how many forum posts I do.

Regarding a powered sub, Yes, I do plan on getting one soon (sometime over the next year) Next month, I am getting a new preamp. Last month I got a new turntable cart, so, I am working my way there....

I do like the idea of getting the latest Vandy 3A Signature. Would have to get used and I think those are sometimes available in the $1500-$2000 range, which is quite a deal considering this is a 5K speaker. (although, I would still be left wanting since my real dream speaker is the Treo CT, which will be out of reach for the considerable future). Might be able to swing the 3’s though, good call.

MOAR Vandy is always good.

fanboy who owns Klipsch, Apogee, Dynaco, ADS, Thiel, Quad..and ..and....and....

But sure, I do appreciate Vandersteen

I know a guy with an absolutely killer system all sourced used..

SOTA Sapphire
Sumiko arm
Ortofon Black
ARC SP-17
Threshold 200
Vandy 3a SIG

but so correct, reading and writing about it, aint listening...

re your question about Odyssey- power supply, cap, resistor changes as you move up the line. My brother in law had 2c w Kahtargo in his big room glorious but 2 c overpowered his smaller den, so he moved to 1ci with the same amp...very sweet.

tomic, I very well appreciate you being a Vandy fanboy, as I understand their many attributes. You seem defensive, and no need to be. Although I mentioned I was not a fanboy ( I am not a fanboy of many brands, as indicated ), I never suggested the op change from Vandys, which you seem to have missed. I am a horn guy, so apples to oranges. As I suggested, the larger 3s, or the addition of a powered sub with crossover, would possibly do for the op everything he is looking for. BTW, the majority of pro amps I have been accustomed to, have one thing in common : they have " balls ". OP, can you tell me about your fan mod, as I have done them also ? Enjoy ! MrD.

 I have owned the Stratus, and while I think it’s an excellent amplifier, I would not call it fast. I think the BEL and the Aragon would be better in that regard. 

@mzkmxcv: It seems a tad unfair to criticize a manufacturer for not providing a graph when they summarize a lot of data relevant to consumers.

It is more unfair to criticize George for relying on such specs regarding Schiit amps without graph data when you thereafter recommend gear not having graph data:
https://emotiva.com/products/pa-1

Same with the Outlaw amp recommendation. 

OMG - my recommendations are so far above emotiva, outlaw, etc.  Different class altogether.

@peter_s Not clear what your point is. What does it mean “different class altogether” absent any additional info?

 @mrdecibel Sorry if that seemed defensive, I riffed off your suggested 3 by Referencing a system built around them.... but omg yes, what a boring world IF we had was one brand of speaker....

i respect your experience and contributions here :-) and I learn stuff from you re the all class A DH-220

i built one of those  kits about every month to help put me they college.....maybe all that solder got to me

or the beer...

I own an STA200 and it is in fact a great little amp if you have the right preamp for it but in my almost 20 years with three different Vandersteen models my favorite amplifier match was Odyssey.  For $995 the Khartago is as good as you are going to get and it's higher input sensitivity makes preamp choice a lot easier.  The Khartago was a great match for several years with a pair of 2CE Sigs at my house and more than held it's own with Treo's. Plus there is a 20 year transferable warranty. 

jackd, I also thought of the STA200 amp for the OP. 

@celander 

For a while I had both the Khartago and the STA-200's big brother, Job 225, with the 2CE Sigs and they both worked great fronted by the W4S STP-SE so if the STA-200 has enough juice it will work well too but I think the Khartago is a better fit. Plus as was pointed out by others the Khartago can be upgraded all the way up to Kismet status using the same case. I've only tryed the STA-200 with the Nola KO's and the Verity Otello's which are more efficient than the Vandies.

Tomic, ty, and back at ya ! You too have a lot of background and experience. Can you find me ( know anyone ) a pair of ADS L 2030s ? ( from a prior thread discussion )… So, jackd, if the STA 200 sounded fine with the Nola KOs and the Verity Otellos ( both very fine reproducers of music ), I would think a pair, passively biamping the Vandys, would be a good thing. Two STA 200s vs One Khartago….? Enjoy ! MrD.

When I think of terms like “lightening quick” and “dynamic,” I think about an amp’s current storage reserves, it’s ability to control the speaker load (related to damping factor) and headroom (both voltage headroom attributed to a stiff, beefy power supply with decent voltage rails and current headroom). 

@mrdecibel 

No doubt the dual STA-200's will be fine but again the Khartago is upgradable and an easier match with more preamp choices.  I had to buy the STP-SE to get the Job 225 to work out as it was incompatible with the other preamps I had on hand. The STA-200 could be an even easier harder match.  But in the end what we would chose first doesn't matter as he is the one buying the amp.

I am still not convinced it is the amp that is currently his weakness, but, as you say, he is the listener, and purchaser. BTW, I am no longer using my STA 200's in my main system, as I have been going through my closets and found an old gem that I am finding quite incredible ( with a few modifications ). It is an ADA PF 2501, and I am loving it. I also have the smaller unit, the PF 201, but this big boy is balsy, with finesse. I go back with ADA.

I'm listening to an STA-200 right now. I use it in my office with a pair of KEF Q150's and an Emotiva XDA2 dac. It's a great amp. I've used it at home with an Exogal Comet Dac and Salk Song3's and it sounded great. I also had the Job225 amp and couldn't really tell a difference so I sold the Job and kept he STA-200. Audio Advisor sometimes has them open box for under $450. Can't be beat at $500 or less in my opinion. 

However, there are also interesting options in this price point. First amp I'd consider as an option is Van Alstine's new SET 120 amp for about $800. There's also used deals frequently for Odyssey amps and Wyred4Sound amps that are under $1000. There's also the Schiit Vidar and their new Class A amp the Aegis (or something like that, just released today). If you can do tubes I'd look out for a used Primaluna Prologue 4 or 5. You can often find those under $1k. Those are amps I'd consider.

May need to add the Schiit Aegir to the list now that it’s available. It’s $100 more than the Vidar, but supposed to sound better overall as long as you don’t listen at high levels with inefficient speakers. The Vandy 2Cs are 88db efficient and I do like to listen loud once in a while, so if I wanted to go this direction, I may have to monoblock them, however if I do this I would have to get a better preamp that is balanced (since that is the only way to monoblock them). So, likely won’t go this direction...taking off the list...LOL

I bet that Job 225 is fantastic since the website is so bad. Normally there is an inverse correlation between how bad the website is to the performance of the product. 

Have not mentioned this yet, but I believe the Behringer amp comes supplied with no more than a 14 gauge power cord ( likely 16 gauge ). I am a power cord junkie, and without spending much money, you can buy a very reasonably priced 10 gauge power cord, which will, ime, give you more of everything you are looking for, and in the case of amp upgrading, you can always use it on the next amp. Hopefully, others will agree with me. If this sounds interesting to you, let me know what length cord you need, and I will recommend one or two, or, you can easily build one. 

Thanks @mrdecibel Definitely willing to take suggestions. If you think I can get more out of the ol' behringer I'm all ears.

Cord wouldn't need to be too long. Maybe 4-5 feet.

mrdecibel, please also throw in a suggestion for a 6 foot PC for a high current/watt amp.

The Behringer and Parasound A 21+ will both benefit using : WAudio High End HiFi Audio AC power cable power cord US plug, 2 meter. Amazon. $59. , all in, inclusive of shipping.

MrdB, +1 on the PC recommendation 

and yes the world DOES need a great $59 Power cord !!!!!!!

right on

for just a bit more scratch $ and not for big bad poweramps, but the LiL Kimber PK-10 w Wattgate components is lovely sounding....can be found used under $130 ish....

I use one on Lampizator DAC

I own the STA200 and imo, there is not much a better amp suited for a passive pre. For giggles, I hooked my SYS to it directly, plus my Pro-Ject Prebox s2, and the sound was fantastic and quiet. I do prefer my RP-5 which seems to add a little bit of warmth and 3d (just a smidge). 

I'm curious about the Vidar. Plus, the Class D PS Audio Stellars

aberyclark, just to be clear, did you use the Prebox s2 directly into the STA200, without SYS? I am asking as I thought about purchasing the prebox to use directly  with my STA200. Thanks.