Let's talk music, no genre boundaries

Bring back Progressive Rock!  I don’t think there is anything like Gentle Giant anymore.  Gotta be one of my all time favorites.

https://youtu.be/ifRnVEkqB2I

@stuartk ,

I like the youtube band you just sent me. Yes, they have rough edges, and I love her Irish accent, if that's what it is. One of the people you sent me to listen to, and now I've forgotten the name, seemed to be playing the same songs as David Grisman only sweetly on a guitar. It sounded like a classically-trained guitarist.

I realized I have a Chris Thile album playing on the Goat Rodeo with Yo-Y0 Ma. To be honest, Goat Rodeo throws me a bit because of all its changes of moods within one song. I'll have to try tackling it a few more times.

As for AI creating art. AI cannot feel love or the fear of death. AI cannot know what it is to have a broken heart. Until that is possible, and more--the deepest human emotions, like the grief of a loved one dying--AI will not be able to produce original art. And I don't think that AI can create good art now. It writes terrible poetry. I've asked it. It can, however, analyze a poem. It's damned good at that. I fed through chatgbt a very complex poem I wrote for my booi, and it nailed the poem within three seconds. That was impressive. 

At best AI will be derivative, perhaps blending the work of a number of artists. I believe that art is a product of human mortality. And AI is not mortal.

@mahgister 

I read the intro, preface, and the first chapter of "The Ever-Present Origin." I'm not sure if I will read the rest now or later. I'm in the middle of "The Plumed Serpent" by D.H. Lawrence and I want to finish it. Although, Lawrence's constant repitition and old style of writing (I've been trained to use one modifier, whereas Lawrence can string together a long list of adjectives) might drive me away from the book.

I think "The Ever-Present Origin" might overlap with me on the research I've done for my book. Our Ven diagrams might have a lot of overlap. I'll have to look further.

if there is overlap between Gebser and you i want to read your book...

I will wait...

@mahgister 

I read the intro, preface, and the first chapter of "The Ever-Present Origin." I'm not sure if I will read the rest now or later. I'm in the middle of "The Plumed Serpent" by D.H. Lawrence and I want to finish it. Although, Lawrence's constant repitition and old style of writing (I've been trained to use one modifier, whereas Lawrence can string together a long list of adjectives) might drive me away from the book.

I think "The Ever-Present Origin" might overlap with me on the research I've done for my book. Our Ven diagrams might have a lot of overlap. I'll have to look further.

@audio-b-dog 

Only time will tell, re: AI's art-making potential.

There is,  needless to say, plenty of derivative art currently being made by humans.

;o)

Information is not meaning...

Meaning is inaccessible using only  information or bits...

Meaning is an embodied felt  symbolic form not a set of bits....

IT is BITs from the tip of Babel PIT.

But heart beats beat bits.

Data makes us beta.

I think as audio-b-dog...

As for AI creating art. AI cannot feel love or the fear of death. AI cannot know what it is to have a broken heart.

@stuartk,

I would not be suprised if AI art outsells human art sometime in the near future. But derivative art probably outsells "original" voices today. Let us remember that Vincent Van Gogh's brother Theo was an art dealer. Vincent was luckier than most because he had an outlet. He sold one painting in his lifetime and that was to a friend, or for payment for lodging, or something. Most great artists die penniless, and then Jeff Koons is a multi-millionaire. So, when we are talking about great art, what are we talking about?

Back to music. Composers like Schumann (both Robert and Clara), Rachmaninoff, and Essa Pekka Solonen have to perform for their money. Their artworks (compositions) don't make them enough money. I'm sure AI could do better than them when it comes to making money from compositions. AI could probably spit out fifty a day.

 What about "good" art. In regards to AI (and probably humans, too) we need to talk about consciousness. Nobody knows what it is. Great thinkers like Stephan Hawkings fear that AI will become conscious. Think Hal in 2001. But nobody knows really what comprises consciousness. I have my theories, but I don't have math to prove it. Ironic. Back to @mahgister's bits.

@asvjerry's optimism is a tonic to some degree. From my perspective, as you know, we must hope for more feminine energy to be unleashed. We're dying under the dark gravity of male-think. Music and other arts by their nature are feminine whether written by men or women. Remember how poets used to invoke the Muse at the beginning of their works? 

Lucia Hwong used to be my best friend's girlfriend. She was absolutely beautiful (if you can find a picture of her in the 70's) and the daughter of the actress Lisa Lu, so she had to marry somebody with higher status than my raggedy friend who became a bass player. Her music, posted below, is as beautiful as she.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clapxdtetcc

@stuartk 

I have been a big Tracy Nelson fan for a long time, ever since I heard her sing in the Firehouse in Berkeley. The whole band was good. They ranged from Ray Charles to Tracy doing "Mother Earth." (Posted below). I also saw her later in a country music bar in L.A. When I went up to her to tell her how great I thought she was, she brushed me off as if I were trying to pick her up. I wasn’t. I had a girlfriend at home who didn’t want to go to a sawdust country joint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt0DZ372cQM

@mahgister 

Meaning is an embodied felt  symbolic form

In art, this has certainly been my experience. I cannot comment on how this applies in math, science or other left-brain-dominant fields. 

Kenneth Rexroth on poetic meaning from chatgbt:

Rexroth believed that poetry should not be reduced to a paraphrasable meaning. In his words:

“The meaning of poetry is experience. The experience of the poem is the poem.”
— Rexroth, "Poetry and Experience"

To Rexroth, a poem isn't about something—it is something. It's a moment of awareness, a lived emotional or intellectual reality.

@audio-b-dog 

I also saw her later in a country music bar in L.A. When I went up to her to tell her how great I thought she was, she brushed me off as if I were trying to pick her up. I wasn’t.

That’s too bad. . . for both of you. I guess it’s indicative of what she had to deal with as a female performer and the less-than-ideal strategies she developed in an attempt to protect herself. 

It is the same thing in natural science if we study Goethe...

It is the same in mathematics which need our act of interpretation at the end... As illustrated by  Godel famous alternative : " (1) the human mind is not a Turing machine or
(2) there are certain unsolvable mathematical problems"

For Godel meaning is an embodied symbolic form and we are more than machine...

more :

«Furthermore, Godel consideres that there must be a nonmechanical plan to
machines, as he reportes "Such a state of affairs would show that there is something
nonmechanical in the sense that the overall plan for the historical development of
machines is not mechanical. If the general plan is mechanical, then the whole race can
be summarised in one machine." (Godel in conversation with Wang).»

https://scispace.com/pdf/godel-on-the-mathematician-s-mind-and-turing-machine-4n7mymlm38.pdf

@mahgister 

Meaning is an embodied felt  symbolic form

In art, this has certainly been my experience. I cannot comment on how this applies in math, science or other left-brain-dominant fields. 

@stuartk, @mahgister 

I think we might be talking about the difference between idea/concept and action, and I  think that relates to music. I think many, if not all, musicians find their music in action first and then record their ideas. A plain example would be Mozart sitting at the piano picking out notes in a certain order, shaping time.

No doubt composers also compose in their heads, but I don't think they're seeing the notes written on the page. I think they are hearing the notes in their heads and perhaps then playing the notes on an instrument and then recording them. If that is the case, then the idea/ concept follows the action of hearing the notes and the timing.

Malcolm Gladwell wrote a very interesting article on art called "The Late Bloomers." In case anyone wants to read, here is the URL

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2008/10/20/late-bloomers-malcolm-gladwell

His basic theory is that artists either compose a work in their heads or they find it on the page, so to speak. Two examples he used was Picasso and Cezanne. Picasso, he said, was able to see his work in his head and then paint it. (Although I wonder, because I have seen Picasso studies for Guernica.) Cezanne found his painting on the canvas. Jazz musicians find their improvisations before they can think them. They have to bypass thinking, which I believe makes the best art.

I worked on a Mark Rothko-inspired painting for months. I could not find shapes on the page that came alive. It must have been at least five months before I woke up one morning and said to myself, "That's easy." I had the painting solved in days because I felt it rather than thinking about it.

On a more mundane level, I heard that Kobe Bryant once told Pau Gasol, "You're the best center in the world. Stop thinking about it and just shoot." Here action doesn't just precede thought, it bypasses thought.

I think the greatest musicians are able to bypass thought and pluck the notes out of the ether, Perhaps what they call God. As Milton said, "I did not write Paradise Lost. God wrote it through me."

This covers it. 

@audio-b-dog 

Here’s an AI summary of the creative process as approached by Keith Richards...

• Richards emphasizes that the best ideas often emerge when you’re not actively chasing them but are simply present in the moment, according to rolling stones data. He describes his process as catching "fleeting creative sparks like butterflies drifting through the air". Riffs, melodies, and lyrics reveal themselves naturally, often without conscious effort or planning, and this intuitive process is key to his creativity.
• Listening to the Instrument: Richards often talks about letting the instrument guide the creative process, believing that songs emerge from the guitar itself. He doesn’t believe in overthinking or forcing ideas but rather allows the music to flow through him.
• Openness to Inspiration: He sees himself as an antenna, picking up signals and ideas that are "out there," and simply receives them as they come, according to rolling stones data. This means being constantly aware of his surroundings and receptive to anything that might spark a musical or lyrical idea.

@stuartk 

I think Keith Richards is talking about what I'm talking about, only he is much more poetic and communicative about the process. I guess that's because he goes through it. On the topic of AI and art. Do you think a computer can do what Richards is talking about?

@mapman 

I will  have to listen to that Moody Blues song. 

it is  by far the best one hour about "creativity" course  with an example related to the geometry of the heart by an artist who picked his intuition in Rudolf Steiner description of the heart :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQMpEAsNHmY&t=266s&pp=ygUMY2hlc3RhaGVkcm9u

@audio-b-dog 

I don’t know enough about computers to answer that question but I’d like to believe a computer does not possess the "inner antenna " that allows humans to pick up on those "butterflies" Keith speaks of. 

In order to manipulate aesthetic forms/media to trigger emotions, doesn’t one have to first possess the capacity for being so moved?

@toddalin - Prog rock has never gone away; check out some of the great many prog rock YouTube channels for a start; plenty of it still going on all over the world. May not sound like Gentle Giant, but that's what Gentle Giant recordings are for. Hopefully 'prog' extends past that.... 

In music, as you develop a theme or musical idea, there are many points at which directions must be decided, and at any time I was in the throes of debate with myself, harmonically or melodically, I would turn to Billy Strayhorn. We would talk, and then the whole world would come into focus. The steady hand of his good judgment pointed to the clear way that was fitting for us. He was not, as he was often referred to by many, my alter ego. Billy Strayhorn was my right arm, my left arm, all the eyes in the back of my head, my brainwaves in his head, and his in mine.

@audio-b-dog more a musical concept piece from the days when prog rock on general was becoming a big thing  than a song that tries to cover the history of music from primitive drumbeats to harpsichord to organ to eventually electric guitar and mellotron.

@bolong 

In music, as you develop a theme or musical idea, there are many points at which directions must be decided

Not only in music! 

@mapman, @larsman  

Sorry, but I don't know what prog rock is. I don't really know any of the names for rock. There are so many. I usually hear something, like it, and buy it, or stream it now. What are some of the more well-known prog (I'm assuming that means progressive) rock groups I might know?

To tell you what a ludite I am, the Eagles are on my turntable now. Most of my friends turn up their noses at me for liking the Eagles. But the Ear will have what it desires.

@mahgister 

Slowly working my way through Orgin. It's a very interesting view of the world and philosophy. I think it might help in my endeavors.

What is prog rock?  This is a job for AI:

“

Progressive rock, often shortened to "prog rock" or simply "prog," is a subgenre of rock music that emerged primarily in the United Kingdom during the mid- to late-1960s [[1]](https://teachrock.org/lesson/the-roots-of-progressive-rock/)[[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock). It reached its peak popularity in the early to mid-1970s [[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock)[[3]](https://discoveringsongs.com/definitions/progressive-rock/).

Here's a breakdown of what defines prog rock:

*   **Definition**: Prog rock is characterized by ambitious compositions, experimentation, concept-driven lyrics, and musical virtuosity [[4]](https://www.masterclass.com/articles/progressive-rock-guide). It sought to "progress" beyond typical rock and pop music structures, drawing inspiration from jazz and classical music [[5]](https://www.rogerdean.com/post/what-is-prog-rock)[[6]](https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock).
*   **Musical Style**: Prog rock is diverse, blending various styles, approaches, and genres [[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock). It incorporates elements from classical, jazz, folk, and world music [[6]](https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock)[[7]](https://www.progarchives.com/Progressive-rock.asp).
*   **Key Characteristics**:
    *   **Complex compositions**: Prog rock often features sophisticated harmonies, mixed time signatures, and multi-part songwriting [[4]](https://www.masterclass.com/articles/progressive-rock-guide). Songs deviate from the standard verse/chorus format and can resemble mini-symphonies [[5]](https://www.rogerdean.com/post/what-is-prog-rock).
    *   **Extended Length**: Songs tend to be longer than typical rock songs, often exceeding 4 minutes, with some reaching over 20 minutes [[8]](https://mclub.wordpress.com/music-styles/progressive-rock/characteristics-of-progressive-rock/)[[9]](https://www.reddit.com/r/progrockmusic/comments/pqrx0v/what_defines_progressive_rock/).
    *   **Virtuosity**: Prog rock emphasizes technical skill and instrumental prowess [[1]](https://teachrock.org/lesson/the-roots-of-progressive-rock/)[[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock).
    *   **Experimentation**: Prog rock incorporates unusual instruments and sounds, sometimes including spoken-word parts [[9]](https://www.reddit.com/r/progrockmusic/comments/pqrx0v/what_defines_progressive_rock/).
    *   **Concept Albums**: Many prog rock bands create concept albums that present unified statements, often telling epic stories or exploring overarching themes [[4]](https://www.masterclass.com/articles/progressive-rock-guide)[[7]](https://www.progarchives.com/Progressive-rock.asp).
    *   **Dynamic Range:** An extremely wide dynamic range, with very quiet and very loud passages often occurring in the same piece of music [[8]](https://mclub.wordpress.com/music-styles/progressive-rock/characteristics-of-progressive-rock/).
*   **Lyrical Themes**: Lyrics often go beyond typical rock themes like love and relationships, exploring fantasy, mythology, science fiction, philosophy, surrealism, and mysticism [[5]](https://www.rogerdean.com/post/what-is-prog-rock).
*   **Instrumentation**: While based around traditional rock instruments (guitar, bass, drums, and keyboard), prog rock bands often incorporate a broader range of instruments, including synthesizers, mellotrons, and even orchestral instruments [[4]](https://www.masterclass.com/articles/progressive-rock-guide).
*   **Origins and Evolution**:
    *   Prog rock emerged from the British psychedelic scene in the late 1960s [[1]](https://teachrock.org/lesson/the-roots-of-progressive-rock/)[[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock).
    *   Early bands like The Moody Blues and Pink Floyd experimented with longer song forms and conceptual lyrics [[3]](https://discoveringsongs.com/definitions/progressive-rock/).
    *   The genre is rooted in a combination of rock and roll, psychedelic rock, jazz, folk, and classical music [[1]](https://teachrock.org/lesson/the-roots-of-progressive-rock/).
*   **Associated Terms**: Progressive rock is sometimes used synonymously with "art rock", "classical rock", and "symphonic rock" [[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock).

---
Learn more:
1. [The Roots of Progressive Rock - TeachRock](https://teachrock.org/lesson/the-roots-of-progressive-rock/)
2. [Progressive rock - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock)
3. [What is Progressive Rock? (History, Bands, Songs, & Impact)](https://discoveringsongs.com/definitions/progressive-rock/)
4. [Progressive Rock Guide: A Brief History of Prog Rock - 2025 - MasterClass](https://www.masterclass.com/articles/progressive-rock-guide)
5. [What is Prog Rock? - Roger Dean](https://www.rogerdean.com/post/what-is-prog-rock)
6. [Progressive rock - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock)
7. [Progressive Rock - Definition, Genres & Articles - Prog Archives](https://www.progarchives.com/Progressive-rock.asp)
8. [Characteristics of progressive rock | mCLUB - inspired by music - WordPress.com](https://mclub.wordpress.com/music-styles/progressive-rock/characteristics-of-progressive-rock/)
9. [What defines progressive rock? : r/progrockmusic - Reddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/progrockmusic/comments/pqrx0v/what_defines_progressive_rock/)”

Prog rock was/is very ambitious artistically. 
 

Therefore of course few care about it anymore these days other than a handful of dedicated enthusiasts.  Kinda like high end audio itself.  The two go hand in hand IMHO. 

@audio-b-dog - some examples of prog rock artists would include Yes, Genesis, King Crimson, Rush, Gentle Giant, Van Der Graaf Generator, and more contemporaneously, Steven Wilson and his projects and with Porcupine Tree. When he tours, he plays to sold-out theaters around the world, so there is still an audience for this. Dream Theater is another very popular contemporary prog band. 

Gentle Giant, Emerson, Lake, and Palmer, Yes, Asia, Frank Zappa, Jethro Tull, Pink Floyd (sorta), Moody Blues, etc.

https://youtu.be/IaLqQo2r-3k

https://youtu.be/yUpREizsftU

When you get to Eagles, Loggins and Messina, Chris Cross, Michael McDonald, etc. you are getting more into Yacht Rock, though Loggins and Messina are certainly progressive and blur the line.  I also enjoy Yacht Rock very much.

These three on SACD are hard to beat!

https://youtu.be/4as7FGQmYnQ?list=PLE7OYmYUxGQe7ftS05MLtCMnEFwo0Y5DA

https://youtu.be/lQ5cOyrXriM

https://youtu.be/sUd72fDmEss

The THING about progressive rock is that you have to "actively listen" to it to appreciate it.  It is not for the casual listener or those engaged in other endevors at the time. 

@larsman @mapman @toddalin  

Okay, I'm into prog rock. I picked up a lot of those albums when they first came out. Loggins & Messina, Emerson, Lake, and Palmer, and others. I've always liked long cuts. Why doesn't Van Morrison fit into prog rock? Wouldn't his album "Astral Weeks" be one of the first? I guess a lot of the groups I like would fit into that category, although some would be later on, like Radiohead. Or does that move into another genre? BTW, I can play all this stuff while I write, as long as I've heard them before and know the words. 

I hate when women are left out. How about Joni Mitchell's later stuff? Hejira and beyond into her jazz work? How about Cassandra Wilson's "Traveling Miles." Although I guess that's considered more jazz. 

@mahgister 

Slowly working my way through Orgin. It's a very interesting view of the world and philosophy. I think it might help in my endeavors.

I am glad if it could be a useful book for you...

Anyway i will read your book if i am alive here ...

@toddalin - well, that's a new one on me - I've never heard of Loggins & Messina mentioned in the same paragraph as 'prog rock'; they have good songs, but when did they change from that country-folk-ish pop? Are any mellotrons involved? 

Those are certainly great examples of 'Yacht Rock' in there; I'd throw in Boz Scaggs and Pablo Cruise as well. Are you a fan of them?

@toddalin 

Bring back Progressive Rock!  I don’t think there is anything like Gentle Giant anymore.  Gotta be one of my all time favorites.

https://youtu.be/ifRnVEkqB2I

What do mean "bring BACK progressive rock"?

Progressive music has been going strong ever since the Swedish band, Änglagård  released their debut album, Hybris in 1992! Complex, emotional, great musicianship.

They sort of opened the floodgates.

Deus ex Machina - Italian band with frightening levels of musicianship. Vocalist with 5 octave range. Borders on jazz-fusion at times.

After Crying - Hungarian chamber-prog band. Their first 6 releases are killer, 

The Thinking Plague - US band deep in the avant-prog subgenre. Atonal, complex, and "difficult", but worth the effort. 

Flower Kings - Swedish band doing classic sounding prog. Have many releases, although the latest have gotten a bit "been there, done that". 

Haken - British band that straddles the line between prog-metal and classic prog. Complex and emotional, with world class musicianship. Their album "The Mountain" has more than a bit of similarities to Gentle Giant.

Echolyn - US band with some killer releases. "As the World" and "Suffocating the Bloom" are their best, IMO, and have some very Gentle Giant influenced, multi part vocal passages.

Zopp - British band steeped in the Canterbury style (National Health, Hatfield and the North, Caravan). Really good stuff. 

Corima - US band in the Zeuhl style (Magma). Killer stuff, with amazing violin playing by Andrea Calderón.

Koenjihyakkei - Another Zeuhl band, this time from Japan. These guys are intense and can be relentless. Their latest are their best. 

This is just a small sample of some killer prog from very recent times. 

Here’s a list of top prog albums from just 2025.

ProgArchives

As I noted L&M blur the lines.

Mellotron????  We don’t need no stinkin’ mellotron when we got real strings.  A song can be progressive and country at the same time.

https://youtu.be/ccYE-33ddkU

Mellotron?  Certainly synthesizer and orchestra.

https://youtu.be/fbt0Ik_LL2M

Somebody mentioned above not listening to the Beatles. Over the years as my friends gave up their record collections, they gave them to me. I inherited some great classical music that enlarged my range of appreciation. I was also given a Mobil Fidelity box set of the Beatles remastered. I find the one record I listen to over and over is the first record in their White Album with "Back in the USSR." That gets me on so many levels. 

Too much music, not enough time! 

@audio-b-dog 

I don’t see how L & M qualifies as Prog.

Their music did span a range from very radio friendly Pop to something a bit more stylistically adventurous. The latter was displayed in longer tracks that alternated with the 3 minute hits.  Like them or not, their musicianship was always excellent. 

Here’s a good example of them at their (IMHO) best:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnI1-AiFrjU&list=OLAK5uy_m-iUndbrYwZmRJpQ-mBScNV53Vq_eHC1I

This track comes from what I consider their most musically ambitious album; "Mother Lode".  

Given J. Messina’s roots in B. Springfield and Poco, I tend to regard him as coming out of Country Rock. I admire guitar players who can say a lot with just a few notes, and he certainly qualifies in this regard. 

Nice.

Just purchased Mother Lode and will probably get Haken and Echolyn.

@stuartk 

I like that cut. I'll stream them. I have a few Poco albums that I play a lot. To be quite honest, I'm not a fan of genres. That's one of the reasons I moved from the Jazz Aficianado group. They seemed to have a exacting conception of  "jazz," and I just like what I like. You said you aren't a fan of Freddie Hubbard's "First Light" and "Red Clay," but I don't think you'd say they aren't jazz albums. They're just something that doesn't hit you. I just like what I like and no longer worry about it. I used to want to be cool. Now I'm too old to be cool, and I really don't care. 

I know that Charlie Parker is considered a genius, but I hardly ever play him. My jazz ear was developed later in the sixties and seventies. Although I go to hear current groups and sometimes I like current jazz. 

As a musician, I think you are more aware of the craftsmanship. I can appreciate it, but I don't listen to music to appreciate how good the players are. One exception might be classical music. I've listened to it long enough to develop more of an ear.

I picked up an album of Toscanini and Horowitz playing some piano concerto I knew well. I thought it was so awful, I had to look it up. Horowitz was married to Toscanini's daughter and there was tension between son-in-law and father-in-law. And did it show in the recording! And I am attuned enough in classical music to pick it up. A classical music DJ named Jim Svejda used to bad-mouth von Karajan so badly, but I just figured maybe he didn't like that von Karajan had played under Hitler. But over the years, I have come to find that I agree. Almost everything I have by von Karajan I don't like, with the exception of Mozart's Requiem. His schtick works with that particular piece of music.

In popular music, I dont really notice how good the musicians are. But I think I lean toward good musicianship instinctively. 

But back to generes, I think they can limit people's taste. I had a male adult bias against Taylor Swift. Girl-teen music. But I have granddaughters and they listened to her, and I found I like some of her stuff. I listen to  her "Red" album. I keep trying to punch my way out of the paper bags that age surrounds us with. Most people don't change their taste in music and art much past the age of thirty.

On the prog rock front, I have several Buddha Box CDs. Do they count? And I also have a number of Massive Attack albums, and how about The Cocteau Twins? 

@audio-b-dog 

I like that cut. I'll stream them. I have a few Poco albums that I play a lot. To be quite honest, I'm not a fan of genres. That's one of the reasons I moved from the Jazz Aficianado group. They seemed to have a exacting conception of  "jazz," and I just like what I like. You said you aren't a fan of Freddie Hubbard's "First Light" and "Red Clay," but I don't think you'd say they aren't jazz albums. They're just something that doesn't hit you. I just like what I like and no longer worry about it. I used to want to be cool. Now I'm too old to be cool, and I really don't care. 

Well, OK. Not all music is easily categorized into neat boxes but categories can be helpful. If I want to know where a certain artist falls, stylistically, and you say "Hard Bop" , I find that's useful. I compare it to music theory, which is not much use simply as a conceptual framework but as a means of communicating about musical structures between musicians it can be of significant practical value.  

You do seem to have a visceral negative response to classifying music by genres. 

Yes; Freddie Hubbard's CTI recordings are Jazz. 

As a musician, I think you are more aware of the craftsmanship. I can appreciate it, but I don't listen to music to appreciate how good the players are.

I listen for emotional engagement first and foremost. In this regard, someone with relatively little technique may be as "good" as a virtuoso... or even better.  

@mapman ..Thanks for the PR 'screen flood'.... Haven't had one of those in awhile.... *L* ;)  Prefer Seesaw from Search/Lost Chord for the bass opener and the manic laughter myself, but y'know how taste tastes....

@audio-b-dog ....thanks for the Optimist gesture, but tend more as Realist with a pesky Nihilist cloud in tow....

Ever since fElon announced his 'super 'puter project labeled Colossus froze me in place....hoped it was just a sick pun, recalling this little number made when I graduated high school.... 

Not that I want to be a canary coughing in the coal mine, mind you....but with all the bad press AI is getting....this one, at least, has eyebrows raised and fur on ends....

Gets hard to argue when Someone Else has 'fingers' on All the buttons....

"Are we feeling lucky, punks?"

@stuartk 

"I listen for emotional engagement first and foremost. In this regard, someone with relatively little technique may be as "good" as a virtuoso... or even better. "

(I don't know how to lift something from what you said and have a buff-colored background.)

I remember when Bob Dylan said, "I sing better than Caruso." 

Van Morrison's "Astral Weeks" came out at the end of 1968. Nothing had ever been done like it. Not close. Rock n' roll changed with that album, and from what you're telling me, this is where prog rock started. I'm posting a short cut from the album so that you'll know what I'm talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cXIdFxbpIg

@stuartk, @mahgister 

Funny you should talk about my wariness of genres. I was just reading in the book that @mahgister recommended on the origins of thought that humanity is torn between the perspective of the individual and the collective. We are in danger of abandoning the perspective of the individual for the collective perspective. I think I am fighting for the individual perspective which would not favor the collective's definition of genres we can all relate to. The individual would (selfishly, perhaps) lean toward individual experience that would transcend words. This is all very complicated, and I hope I my summary did it justice.

I see it in my writing as the feminine which would favor individual experience versus the masculine which would lean toward the group experience. Except our group experience has been defined by men, and this takes it to another level of complication which is too long for me to go into now. Although, we do need to define species and genuses to have a discussion, I must admit. 

This does have applications to music and art, but more later.

Hmm Astral Weeks was groundbreaking indeed.  As was Sgt Pepper.  As was “Days of Future Passed” and early Pink Floyd. Each in different ways.   Revolver and  Pet Sounds to some extent as well were at minimum early seeds for prog rock. The Beatles’ combined commercial success, experimentation and boundary pushing made it possible for others to follow and push the boundaries even further successfully for 10 years or so until Punk rock came along and popped the prog rock bubble.  King Crimson’s “In the Court of the Crimson King” in 1969 is widely regarded for setting the benchmark for what was to become prog rock. 

@mapman 

All very good points. Perhaps I am just a Van Morrison fan who thinks that he does not get enough credit. Yes, I am. But that aside, the Beatles, whom I dearly loved during the sixties, went in a number of different directions. They had country songs, blues songs, and their own wonderful songs. A lot of it, I think, was satirical about the British society. They wanted to break out of the stuffy British morality. Seargent Pepper for me was a bit satirical on old British music. It wasn't ground-breaking for me musically, aside from the fact that I'd never heard a rock band satirize old British musical styles. Pink Floyd I associate with the seventies. 

Van Morrison is perhaps the best voice of his generation. Of course, that's coming from a Van Morrison fan. When he sang TB Sheets, which came out in 67, nobody had ever thought like that before. He's a blues, jazz, R&B, soul, classical, spiritual singer. So, just chalk up what I'm saying to a Van Morrison fan who thinks he's not mentioned enough in serious rock conversations.

...and my favorite ending line of the title song....

"...in another face...."

One can get weary of the same but different same, every morning thru day.... *s* ;)

Harder to keep an audience enthralled of late....busy 'celling' the show and selves at it....and the 'fav' selections open and close the gig...

*L* The benefit of being 'Auld Skool' is we can pic'n choose what, how, and Why we listen in our acoustic cells....😏

Is the madman black or are the windows painted?
Draw your own conclusive curtains.....as usual... 🤨😉

Music

The now that becomes the what where when how why later if significant to recall and fit later....or just drown oneself into....for a moments' sake...

...and sometimes you just want to dust off the subs....

"I go....for grid, for Goofy, and St. Walt !"  (very obscure quote...)

Your demoted savant, J ;)

@audio-b-dog 

 listened to Klaus Mikela conduct Sibelius's 5th. It was excellent. He paced the first movement faster than I am used to but it worked really well

Probably my favourite Sibelius symphony!  I was imprinted as a child by Sir Alexander Gibson's version, which is very fast.  It is very hard to forget that early imprinting!

@audio-b-dog 

The way I think of V. Morrison is a unique blend of American Blues, R&B, Jazz and Folk influences with traditional UK musical genres. And then, there's Morrison's deep spirituality. 

Richard Thompson is another equally unique and equally brilliant synthesizer of American and UK influences. Of course, his perspective on life is very different from Morrison's. He can be quite acerbic and bleak but there's no denying his talent. He's not afraid to tackle the painful aspects of human experience. 

@audio-b-dog 

We are in danger of abandoning the perspective of the individual for the collective perspective. I think I am fighting for the individual perspective which would not favor the collective’s definition of genres we can all relate to. 

Where is communication in all of this? 

Personally, I look at it not in terms of one or the other (masculine vs feminine or individual vs collective) but of striving for balance. Too much of the collective and we have repression. Too much individuality and we have chaos. 

The older I get, the more aware I become of the ubiquitous nature of paradox. 

Sometimes I feel as if I am a bit unique on various music forums I post on, because I have almost zero nostalgic feelings  connected to music. 

Once I reached about the age of 20, music stopped being the "soundtrack to my life", and became something to appreciate on a purely artistic level. Once that happened, the idea of listening to a song because it reminded me of a great time I had during my youth, became trivial to me.

Not that I don't listen to some music from before that time, but it still has to meet the criteria* I love in music. I do not listen to it because it came from a certain time in my life. 

*Those criteria being: very high levels of musicianship, deep and broad range of emotional and/or intellectual content conveyed, moderate to high levels of complexity.