Let's talk music, no genre boundaries
This is an offshoot of the jazz thread. I and others found that we could not talk about jazz without discussing other musical genres, as well as the philosophy of music. So, this is a thread in which people can suggest good music of all genres, and spout off your feelings about music itself.
I love it when I get the "concept" through the music and it adds a whole ’nother layer of enjoyment (e.g., Jethro Tull, Passion Play where it runs from the beginning to the end). Maybe if opera was in English... I especially love it when I understand the joke and nobody else seems to get it, some even when you explain it to them. Go to 25:30 and answer the question. Even AI doesn’t get the joke and quotes the disk wrong! |
Great point, @acman3 ! |
I dont know if i takes the times i will learn how to appreciate every single individual artists. I dont think so. For each singular artist i listen my gut and my feeling guide me...i rarely change my mind...But there exist a slow changin evolution in my musical journey...
For a style,genre,or for a cultural musical movement or way of being, it is another complete story... Here my taste had been educated and trained with much humility and listening session whose goal was : what this means ? Once a culture is slowly integrated with many years, my opinion about any of his artists is felt immediately almost without too much error...
Example ? It takes me a slow habituation in the madrigals style of Italian music to understand the difference between Gesualdo and Monteverdi and appreciate the two on equal footing....
I discovered Jazz only i stumble onto artists that were geniuses i could understand on the pot but it has taken much times to appreciate all jazz musicians for who they are... Humility for sure ...
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What you said about appreciating music is how I feel. I did try Haydn's "Creation" Oaratorio. I just don't like Oratorios. I don't like the way the music becomes background for the singers to give Christian doctrine. I am listening to Bach's Mass in B Minor and it is all music all the time. I know the singers, who are singing in German so I can't understand, are singing about Jesus, but because the music goes forth unimpeded, they are just part of the music to me. |
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Perhaps I simply lack sufficient patience for hanging out in the "zone of tolerance" long enough for it to transition to "liking". When I go back, re-listen, I almost never find something I haven’t liked in the past has become appealing. But it also works the other way -- what I like, I tend to like for a very long time.
Perhaps I’m interpreting this in a way you don’t intend, but I relate...
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For me, music is spiritualism. Good music. Felt music. In Bach's Mass in B Minor he treats the music as spiritual. It comes from a place that is beyond Jesus and Dogma. A place that has existed in humanity since we became humanity. As one scholar of religion and art said, "With ancient humanity art and religion were the same thing. There was no distinction." In doing research for the book I am writing, I have discovered a spiritual aspect of myself. I find that most religious dogma stands in the way of this spiritualism. Not to say that religious people can't get past it in music, art, writing, etc. I am absolutely open to the fact that the lack of understanding is within me. And that Haydn is expressing the same spiritualism as Bach in the B Minor Mass. A big part of the reason why I like modern classical and jazz is that the composers and musicians understand that music is spiritual in and of itself. We don't need to connect it to any dogma or sect. Certain musicians, in my mind, are connected to the universe's spiritual source. Others, be they Christians, Jews, Muslims, or whatever, do not bring that connection to that spiritual source for me. And I reiterate "for me." I have been brought up with my own biases just like everyone else. |
I suspect you are misinterpreting "calling out". To "call out' actually means to "draw critical attention to someone’s unacceptable actions or behavior." Thus, this is the opposite of "calling for" or "supporting" !
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I am going to post a poem below about music in general and specifically about jazz. I think that my poetry might be more difficult to understand than I thought, so below the poem, I will take you through it and help you understand it. What the poem describes really happened. I was driving home from work over a busy L.A. freeway.and an interview with John Coltrane came on the radio. I had never heard John Coltrane's speaking voice before. He moved me so much I had to pull off the freeway, park my car, and listen to him talk and then play "Green Dolphin Street." I felt as though I was listening to a god, but in retrospect I realize that I was listening to a man who had touched god, or at least come as close as the hand of Moses portrayed on the Sistine Chapel in the Vatican. The poem was written much as jazz is played. No thoughts preceded the words. They simply came out in one flow without my thinking about or worrying about the meaning. Still it is one of my best poems and has been published several times. I think, like a jazz musician, I was able to develop a story and resolve it, from the inside out. ON HEARING A RADIO INTERVIEW
The first lines describe what @mahgister talked about earlier. Music is beyond an instrument or whatever produces it. It is something deep inside a person and it can be felt whether it is reproduced well or poorly. What could be more poorly produced than scratchy car speakers? And yet, something alive and feline stepped our of the speakers, a gospel (true) intelligence.This is how I heard Coltrane's persona. stepping out of the past In the next stanza I talk about how music was not doled out over "cloistered walls/ it comes from the streets/ where women's bodies turn rags to style." All music comes from the street, if we go back far enough. For so many years, European music was controlled by the church, and some masters were able to transcend the church's dogma. But certainly we can see jazz coming from the streets where women's bodies turn rags to style. Isn't that the truth? You get the right woman and put the right rags on her and you've got art, and music is art. he doesn't say it
When I talk about Coltrane's hands like Icarus's wings, i didn't exactly know why I used that metaphor. If you'll remember, Icarus's father made him a pair of wings to fly but told him not to fly too close to the sun or the wings would melt. I watched more of Ken Burns' Jazz series last night, and repeated over and over again was how jazz musicians risk their lives on stage. They have no idea what they're doing. At any moment they could fall. After that, I knew my image of Icarus's wings was correct. I stop the car & I hate to sound hubristic, but these last lines I think are perhaps the best lines I've ever written. Again and again in the Jazz series, there were so many examples of great musicians that seemed so unlikely to be geniuses. it was as if they were touched by "snowflakes/ promiscuously kissing faces." Rude Miles Davis was kissed. Wasted Billie Holiday who would spend away her talent was kissed on the face by a promiscuous snowflake. & think that grace lands anyplace Hopefully this helped you understand this poem. If you want to take it further run the poem through chatgbt which is an amazing analyst of poems. It can't write one, but it can tell you about what is in a poem. Just type in "Tell me about this poem:" |
I dont doubt that you and me or the poster himself are not fascist... But i am very surprised to categorize music as "fascist" or anti-fascist"... The National hymn of the Nazi for example and some political song are fascist music... But when Bob Dylan denounce the assassination of JFK in a written song with words, is it anti-fascist music ? No it is a song denouncing an injustice... but perhaps i misinterpret his post... "le chant des partisans" in France is specifically a beautiful anti-fascist song... But generally speaking there is no fascist music or antifascist music genre... Most music is written for a specific event... Fascist event or anti-fascist event but these are exceptional and from the past history... My surprise is that i never thought of music as fascist or antifascist music in general... Then if i come and write in a post that i like anti-fascist music it sound strange when i read this... Who is fascist nowadays ? Biden ,Trump, Macron, Putin, Xi ? or Trudeau ? The concept of fascism is dated...And never used to speak about music ...and today politics is way over past distinction as fascist/anti-fascist,CommunisT/capitalist,left/right, these distinctions made less and less sense with the passing years... I like music denouncing injustice... Protest songs...but these are songs with written words, not anti-fascist music which do not exist anyway as a genre ... Perhaps i misunderstood this one line post... I apologize then ...
I just think again about a great classical work which is antifascist and not a song ... Rzewski... It is clearly an antifascist work...( against fascist general Pinochet put in place by US who battle against fascist 30 years before US selected Pinochet) ... And it is an antifascist work from not long ago (against capitalism) ... My favorite version is by Rzewski himself all others interpretation lack the pulse the composer push in his piano playing ... It is one of the great American classical work of music in my opinion ...I was stunned the first time i heard it 15 years ago... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnJ9wHo9Mgc&list=RDKnJ9wHo9Mgc&start_radio=1
Then i overreacted to the post and i apologize...
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**** The concept of fascism is dated...And never used to speak about music ...and today politics is way over past distinction as fascist/anti-fascist,CommunisT/capitalist,left/right, these distinctions made less and less sense with the passing years... **** Very insightful and so true! As true as is the word itself overused these days; often without understanding its true meaning. |
Don't want to get in a political dispute. I did, however, read a book on fascism a few years ago by Madeline Albright, and she defines it. I also read the "Origins of Totalitarianism" by Hannah Arendt and she does a good job of describing it in much more detail. The word has broadened out over the years, but it still can be defined. I won't try here, however. |
@audio-b-dog , for the record, my comments were not a reference to anything you wrote. I’m sure you are well versed in the meaning of the word. |
@mahgister, @frogman, @hilde45 I will give a more generous interpretation of @hilde45 comment about fascism. Being the stepson of an AFLCIO worker, I used to go to union picnics and sit at Pete Seager's feet as he sang Woody Guthrie's "This Land Is Your Land." From Seager and Guthrie, Bob Dylan carefully crafted political songs that weren't too pointed. Radiohead came out with an album called "Hail to the Thief." (Not one of their best, I must admit.) So, I think there is at least a lot of songs about injustice. To carry this idea further a bit, when I studied poetry with Gary Snyder, he said there is no place in poetry for philosophy and politics. Although, he is known as a great environmental poet, but perhaps that is different. The way to do it, though, is to write in stories, allegories, and images. As the father of modern American Poetry said, Dr. William Carlos Williams from Newark New Jersey, "There are no ideas but in things." As I have said, I think the heart of music is spiritual, and although I might not be in love with Christian doctrine in Oratorio, I love spirituals that come out of black churches. Secular person that I am, I could participate in that if I could sing. And of course from black churches we have many jazz musicians, and I can't forget Aretha Franklin and my favoirite Roberta Flack. And, hey, although long-winded, I may have changed the subject from classical music. |
I am picky about music like spirituals... After Marian Anderson, whom I consider, along with Callas and Scharzkopf and a few others, to be one of the most powerful voices of the century, I discovered Reverend Gary Davis, my favorite spiritual album. Original guitarist, hypnotic voice, powerful expression. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W9PuLcoZMM&list=RDEMIym3Jmh7U3xruAlIVxfy3g&start_radio=1 |
@hilde45 + 1 |
Songs about injustice after world war 2 must not be generally labelled "anti-fascist" for evident historical reason... In some case, ironically, they could though be labelled "anti-fascist", as in the Rzewski work case...( it was a piece against Fascist Pinochet installed by US decision, the same country victorious of fascism with communist USSR) It is why i reacted and asked examples of fascists and antifascists music ...( The tortured Chileans under Pinochet as the musician Victor Jara, how do they perceived American national anthem when they understand who installed Pinochet ?) It is not a good idea to politicize music... But i like protest songs ... A lot ... It is more than music though ... My favorite is Bob Dylan about JFK murder...I was stunned by the genius of Dylan who stay a poet more than just a mere "antifascist" propagandist...
« Poetry and music beat propaganda from any side»--Anonymus dead poet
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"I love music that calls out fascism and injustice" As do I. While not a specific genre, there is a ton of "anti-fascist" music out there, along with music calling out injustice, etc. Basic examples include protest music of the 60's and 70's and then punk/hardcore of the 70's, 80's and beyond. Some great music out there, filled with passion and energy.... Time to fire up the "record player." |
I like Rev. Davis. As I've said, I was lucky enough to go to U.C. Berkeley in the 60s when all manner of musician and other artists were around. I heard blues on record players and live from real blues players. I had musician friends who played Blues licks. Of course, they couldn't sing them worth anything. (I'm being careful about my four letter words because I had a long post excised for using a four letter word.} I must explain, though. I have a dry sense of humor and posting a spiritual by a guy who looked like John Denver was slightly pulling your leg. That's not to say I wasn't taken by him when I heard him on the radio. And I still like that song. The old blues and spirituals sounded dated, though, in the 60s and 70s. I think my spiritual singers were Marvin Gaye (What's Going On) and Stevie Wonder. I can't imagine that anyone on this thread hasn't heard "What's Going On." If you haven't heard it either run out and buy the album or stream it. |
Like many, I became aware of Rev. G. Davis via Jorma K’s covers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1SK3QTnGU8&list=RDc1SK3QTnGU8&start_radio=1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2v4bmWbXeg&list=OLAK5uy_k1_unICX7WcrG1S-25D3NQ6L9P28ISuc4
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He was dressed as any decent man of his generation and social context was dress if he could afford it... He was a minister not only a musician...
He was one of the great and the one who reveal to me as Marian Anderson what was genius in gospel or blues and top genius, well dress or not... I dont give a damn about dress.... With Billie Holiday and Anderson and Armstrong and Ray Charles and John lee Hooker he was for me the top.... Nobody can fake spirituality...
«While he was alive, Davis' music was recognized by musicians of the era as exceptional. Bob Dylan called him "one of the wizards of modern music," while Bob Weir of the Grateful Dead said Davis had "a Bacchian sense of music which transcended any common notion of a bluesman." Jorma Kaukonen of the Jefferson Airplane suggested Davis is "one of the greatest figures of 20th-century music."[11]»
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Here is a video of Jesse Fuller singing "San Frencisco Bay Blues." I heard him live at Berkeley, just across the Bay from San Francisco https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBME_J0pf3o And here is the great Otis Redding, who died much too young, singing "Sitting on the Dock of the Bay." |
....imho, I think any and all genres need a well-struck dope slap... Nothing like a parody to ground your capacitors' capacity. ;) |
Ever wonder why your children on occasion don't take you seriously? #2 in a never-ending slide into parental mise en scene At least the car is stationary. |
Above all, friends & ’others’.....Yes, maintain ’Perspective’... In the next world, you're on your own. |
@simonmoon I had never been a big Prog fan, but in the last year or so have really enjoyed it. Some older, like (Peter Gabriel era) Genesis and a lot of the newer bands like Porcupine Tree and Riverside. Fun stuff! |
@asvjerry, @johnnotkathi, @simonmoon Okay this old guy will listen to some early Riverside tomorrow. |
I was stunned with my first battery transistor radio when i was 14 61 years ago, i remember my impression as yesterday, walking and listen to Otis Redding... I just discovered blues with him but i did not know it yet... I became conscious of the blues existence with John Lee Hooker and it was Hooker who touch me more than the blues itself... These two singers were "cool" as ice spewed by a volcano ...
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Peter Grimes in interesting, but I prefer my singing to be in song, rather than the spoken word. I guess Belshazzar’s Feast is in English, but when that many voices are singing en masse, it can make it very difficult to understand. Maybe opera is not for me. This is more my cup of tea and would be more of a "Rock Opera" using some more modern instrumentation. It is not a collection of songs, but rather tells the story of travels through the after life and reincarnation. |
Definitely. Let’s not forget Berlioz Requiem. Munch conducting Boston Symphony is wonderful. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBrs-r77FPJKOAW0GMy6wQbyAxDb_xDN6&si=-OEl6Kxl6OlH3cE_
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I recently saw two black operas by Terence Blanchard. One was about Emile Griffith a gay boxer in the fifties who killed in the ring an openent who taunted him about being gay. The second was about Charles Blow a gay writer who I used to see on CNN all the time. The score from the Charles Blow opera, Fire Shut Up in My Bones was rivetting. So was the score about Emile Griffith, called Champion. Here's a snippet of Champion: |
Try Jakob Obrecht and Josquin Des prez masses... Super geniuses of the highest order..."Missa super Maria Zart" with Prague madrigalist though is my treasured version because of the rythm...Missa pange lingua but with Ensemble Clement Janequin because of the rythm ...Tallis scholars for example kill it with no rythm so well the sing and they sing well for sure ..
I am in love with Purcell Anthems... But i never retrieved the Wilcocks album i owned long ago and the actual complete Anthems version i own is acceptable but nothing more ... There is too much geniuses in sacred music before Bach for only one thread... it is not well known generally ...In fact most geniuses are not known at all ...Especially the Franco Flamish school...
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I've never been to the Met. I pretty much only see what's put on in Los Angeles. The few times I've been to New York, my wife decides on what we see, and it's usually a popular musical. Although, I did see Twyla Tharp at the Kennedy Center in the 70s. My wife was a big fan. They danced to Supertramp and it was a fantastic show. |
@audio-b-dog Twyla and David Byrne collaborated on 'The Catherine Wheel' back in '81...David didn't have much to say about it later...perhaps not a pleasant RT mix, given the personalities involved....but I'm just an 'interested absurder' of such.... This/that was back in '81, so there's a time shift involved that caused who knows what as far as we as listeners are involved.... I like pineapples as a consumable, so my interpretation is loaded.... ;) |
That surprises me! At one point the baritone sings, with no accompaniment at all: Babylon was a great city, What John Shirley-Quirk, in particular, does with the last phase is absolutely spine-chilling. The first performance was given in Leeds, at its Festival. The addition of two brass bands was suggested by Sir Thomas Beecham; the bands were on hand anyway for a performance of Berlioz’s Requiem, and Beecham said to the young Walton: "As you'll never hear the thing again, my boy, why not throw in a couple of brass bands?". So he did. An excerpt conducted by the composer was featured in Gerard Hoffnung's humorous festival of music, which sold out the Festival Hall in London in record time - about an hour. The full orchestra was in position, and a 300 strong choir filed in behind. Finally the composer appeared, carrying a fly swat. On the first downbeat of the fly swat, the chorus sang "slain" to a full orchestral chord. Then they all filed out again. |
