Let's talk music, no genre boundaries
This is an offshoot of the jazz thread. I and others found that we could not talk about jazz without discussing other musical genres, as well as the philosophy of music. So, this is a thread in which people can suggest good music of all genres, and spout off your feelings about music itself.
Here's a snippet from Kiri Te Kanawa singing Puccini's La Rondine. I love her voice in this opera. It is a pristine soprano. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8pg4rsj1_g I listened to Liszt played by Sofronitsky today. Absolutely electrifying. I couldn't find Moravec playing Liszt, but I listened to a piece by Debussy and it was excellent. |
Beautiful rendition by Te Kanawa of this beautiful Puccini aria. Thanks! It is common for artists (not just singers) to show some degree, however small, of their ethnicity when performing, or creating.. This is akin to a trace of accent of one’s native tongue when speaking another language. Conversely, with singers there can be a higher degree of comfort when singing in their native tongue. There might also be certain stylistic influences that are unique to a particular culture’s music that are better expressed by a native. Either way, this doesn’t necessarily make for a better or worse performance since there are other musical factors involved, but singing in one’s native tongue the music of a composer of one’s own ethnicity can sometimes add a certain “something” to the performance. Not better or worse than Te Kanawa’s wonderful rendition, but to me this sounds more……well, Italian. |
I am not a fan of Opera (save exception as Faust Busoni with Fisher-Dieskau or Kurt Weil or Mozart operas or Akhnaten from Glass etc ) Because it is almost impossible to speak and saying and singing at the same times in perfect musical harmony...It takes giant singers...I prefer sacred music... Here Scotto succeed for me to keep perfect balance between pure music and poetical diction without falling into "theater" ... When i love an opera i listen to it as music not as theater, I prefer even to not read the libretto...I listen to it many times... If we listen Scotto here we can listen her "on repeat" as music without being bothered by a " speech" in a "play" ...I love her here ...
Renata Scotto : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-t3L-ZWtKs&list=RDg-t3L-ZWtKs&start_radio=1
Montserrat Caballe do as Scotto a marvellous Doretta for the same reason but in his own way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ5cL-sJZhw&list=RDg-t3L-ZWtKs&index=2
I like Mirella Freni i discovered long ago and loved in Vivaldi and in Mozart who was my first Opera love ....
|
Thank you both for your contributions to sopranos singing "Chi Il bel songo di Doretta" from Puccini's La Rondine. If anybody else wants to contribute, that's how you should look up your favorite soprano. You're right @frogman about there being a more natural flow from a native Italian speaker. I liked Freni and Scotto's versions very much. Caballe's voice was a bit darker and deeper than I expect, probably from favoring Ta Kanawa all these years. What I love about her rendition is the lightness of her voice reminding me of Art Deco Tiffany lamps. But here's a treat. A video of Callas singing "Chi Il bel songo di Doretta." with subtitles. You can close your eyes if you listen @mahgister, but I think in this case the lyrics are important. These are upper class people singing about the ecstasy of love and art. Probably couldn't get away with writing those lyrics today. In this video we also get to see the magical Callas: |
Delighted to see people talking about Kiri Te Kanawa. I love her voice. Every voice is totally unique ... the timbre of hers is wonderful. Her interpretation of Richard Strauss' 4 final songs is easily the best of the dozens I've heard (probably own more than dozen, between LP and CD): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lzrbd6uuunA&list=PL0iOugSvrIBy65Uho2Kl7gT-JwcHyQCf1&index=1 |
@audio-b-dog, you are so right about Bach's Mass in B Minor. It's magnificent music. So much of what the man composed is magnificent. Are you hip to Haydn's "The Creation"? I love that oratorio. The man was playing his A game when he wrote that. I have four or five versions, but one stands far above the others. |
| Post removed |
Love Haydn oratorios including “The Creation”. I recently listened to a favorite, “Il Ritorno di Tobias”. I usually prefer to leave audiophilic stuff out of music discussions, but as an aside, if forced to choose, my Dorati/Royal Phil double LP is probably my best sounding large ensemble orchestral recording. Love that recording. |
Kiri Ta Kanawa has a very light quick voice. I looked her up to see if she was a coloratura soprano, but she wasn't listed as such. She was also pretty, which as an opera goer (perhaps a chauvinist in this case?) is important. I went to one opera where the soprano was being chased by all these men, and the stage set had her walk out on a long plank that bent under her weight. I had to literally stop myself from gasping. Was that plank going to break? I once saw a Carmen with a soprano who looked like a Carmen and it really helped. I will check out "The Creation," I've never gotten into oratorio. Bach preceded Haydn and you'd think that I could get into later music if I am into Bach. I bought Bach's St. Matthew Passion with Klemperer conducting, but I never have been able to listen to the entire three records. It's a type of singing I don't respond to. I will listen to Kiri Ta Kanawa singing Strauss. I keep reading about how good his lieder is, but it's another form I've had trouble with. I've gotten into Mahler's lieder, partly because I've heard it performed live and some themes are also used in his symphonies. I'll look for a version on Qobuz so I can play it on my stereo. Sorry I mixed you up with @mahgister, thinking he was the one who couldn't get the Callas video. I hope you were able. It's marvelous to watch her sing. From what I've heard, watching her on stage was a big part of her appeal. |
@frogman are you referring to Dorati's version of "The Creation" (Royal Phil, London/Jubilee)? If yes, it's easily the best version of the four or five I own. Just my 2 cents. I'm nuts for oratorios, so many through the centuries. Handel is the master here, but other composers wrote spectacular pieces, too. And while we're talking about liturgical music, can't overlook Beethoven's "Missa Solemnis" (masterful). Just the most epic piece of music from a composer who wrote epic music throughout his career. |
I was fortunate enough to hear Beethoven's "Missa Solemnis" live at Disney Hall. I think Dudamel was conducting, but I was really taken by it. I bought a CD with Bernstein conducting. I have no idea how it rates in the universe of conductors on that piece. You can change the subject. I've noticed that a lot of people have dropped out of the conversation about classical music. I was thinking about changing the subject myself, although staying with women. I have recordings of many fine women who most people have probably not heard of. Recordings are absolutely important. Although, @stuartk kind of got me back into listening to my old CDs. Some well-recorded CDs sound better than badly recorded albums. But a well-recorded album is the best. I think my best recorded album is a jazz record by the Isao Suzuki Trio, called "Black Orpheus." They paid very careful attention to the recording. There's a drawing on the back of where the mikes were placed. It's a great record and very hard to find at a reasonable price. |
I am posting Callas again and I will test it out myself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=ooJwh5Hxcwg it is Callas when I click on it. |
You've got it. That works too. Maria Callas appears in perhaps 30 seconds. I must admit, she's wonderful to watch. On another topic, I saw in the Jazz Aficianados thread people talking about Coltrane and Pharoah Sanders (maybe?), screaming and wailing with their horns. I have Pharoah with Leon Thomas on the album Karma playing "The Creator Has a Master Plan." In the middle Pharoah goes wild with his sax and for me it is a wonderful resolution and very spiritual. On the other hand, I have heard Pharoah and Coltrane playing long duets where they are "screaming" together. That feels like pain to me. And there is only so much of that pain I can take. So, I don't get through the track. Am I missing tsomething? |
@audio-b-dog , re Trane/Pharoah: **** Am I missing something? **** No disrespect intended, but the answer is: obviously! A while back there was an ongoing debate on the JFA thread between one of the then most prolific contributors and I about what the “goal” of a musician/artist should be. This contributor insisted that the goal should be to “please the audience”. I strongly disagreed. The goal of a true artist is to pursue his/her artistic vision. If that vision takes the artist to a place that is uncomfortable for (in this case) the listener, well….so be it. The listener should always approach the work of an artist, particularly that of an artist of the undeniable greatness of John Coltrane with a certain level of humility. Perhaps the most important thing that makes a musician truly great is their conviction to the idea that musical knowledge (and skill) is an endless pursuit. So, why should it be different for the listener? Some of the greatest Jazz artists feel an uncontrollable drive to not only constantly improve their craft, but to constantly push forward and break personal stylistic boundaries. It takes a lifetime of honing that craft and pushing those boundaries to pursue what might, ultimately, be an unreachable goal. When one considers the immense amount of dedication and sheer amount of time that a creative artist of the stature of Trane spent striving for a certain personal artistic goal, it seems to me that to think that the listener can, relatively casually, “get it” is kind of presumptuous. We as listeners may not get it (yet), but should at least respect it and be comfortable with not getting it. A deeper dive into the music of the artist so as to better understand the artistic progression that took the artist to that uncomfortable (for the listener) place goes a long way toward “getting it”. Humility. Obviously, not every Jazz artist feels the same level of need to push forward and break stylistic boundaries. They may be more comfortable staying in a certain stylistic zone and continue to hone their craft within that particular zone. This doesn’t in any way invalidate or diminish the relevance of their work, but then there are and haven’t been that many artists of the stature and importance of Coltrane. Hope this helps and regards. BTW, there’s an old truism among Jazz musicians that says: “You can’t play outside before you can play inside”. “Out” playing is unfortunately used by too many to try and hide the fact that their playing is just bs. Not always easy for the listener, but it’s usually pretty easy to tell the imposters from the real deal. Always look for examples of an “out” player playing a standard credibly. Many times, there aren’t any. |
Yes; I could change the subject but you guys are obviously enjoying your discussion, so I’m content to wait until a different topic comes up. I wasn’t complaining, just poking fun at the limits of my cultural sophistication. I'm the only member of my family who isn't a Classical fan. Blame it on the "toxic" effect of listening to Cousin Brucie when I was in elementary school!
|
Hey @stuartk , we did change the subject. Jump in! 😊 Cousin Brucie!! Boy, that takes me back. |
Hah! You're right! I'd be interested to hear what you'd suggest as far as a strategy for "getting" Free Jazz. As I stated earlier, I enjoy it when players weave outside elements into inside compositions (Post-Bop) but I have a visceral negative reaction to out and out Free playing. How does one make the leap???
|
@frogman thatnks for that link. I never heard of this Haydn oratorio! Listening to it now. I much prefer Haydn's choral/liturgical writing to instrumental (I'm probably alone in feeling that way, but there it is). |
Here is the search criteria I used to find the Callas performance: maria callas puccini la rondine youtube video I see three choices. I took the third choice where I saw a picture of Callas and the baritone (probaby famous) that was 5 minutes and 18 seconds. The baritone sets it up and then Callas comes in. I hope you can get the subtitles because they added a lot for me.I’ve seen it performed twice, but who can remember what was said in the beginning? I would like to talk further about art in general. As a writer I have had to make choices about "inside" and "outside." I will ask people this: Who has read "Ulysses" or "Finnigan’s Wake" all the way through? More later when I have more time. |
i will put the Mozart Requiem with Bach great mass and Bruckner great mass...I prefer the Hogwood version. Why ? Because it direct it as an opera of the soul more than a liturgical mass. With children chorus. Astounding interpretation that beat even the others astounding one. What means this "a soul opera" ? We all fear of dying and we all ask for mercy... Mozart genius is so great his soul opera communicate this and only this perfectly... Only Hogwood genius understood this and instead of a mass deliver the greatest soul opera ever written...
A word about Antal Dorati genius un Haydn, i concur with frogman, a stupendous version... But do you know the Dorati version of Liszt masterpiece "Christus" which is also as the Te deum of Bruckner and the Mozart requiem a "soul opera" not only a liturgical piece ? I understood Liszt only the day i heard a pianist able to play him... Then i realized i knew nothing about Liszt mastery after Dorati Christus, which inspired Bruckner... Liszt is a musical genius not just a pianist on par with all the greatest ...
|
I prefer John Cowper Powys to Joyce litterary madness (genius) ... I could not read neither of these two works ...Anyway for someone not mastering litterary English it is impossible... I advise everyone to read Morwynn of Powys to begin with ... A tale about evil and Hell ... Powys was a seer not just a writer obsessed by writings as Joyce was ...
|
I certainly haven’t. RE: poetry, as a reader, I favor poets who prioritize clarity of meaning. I have little patience for poetry that is obscure in this regard. For this reason, and also because a primary motivation for me for writing poetry is to gain a deeper understanding of myself and the human experience, my tendency is to strive for clarity as well. If pushed too far, this can be a detriment, of course. There must be space for the unconscious to make leaps; for an element of mystery. I'm not striving for logic, just a fundamental quality of intelligibility.
|
I have lots to say! I like almost every kind of music. I thought I would try out some classical. Back when I thought I had a good stereo. Definitely passable. Always had a nice sized room. I as a member of BMG CD service. I could get them for 3 or 4 bucks. I ended up with about 80 CDs. I ended up with several Living Stereo and Mercury Living Presence recordings. These were great performances. I had several favorites. Fritz Reiner and Chicago Orchestra. Mussorsky and Rachmaninoff were great. Leopold Stokowski and Philadelphia Orchestra. Rhapsodies The most powerful Tuneful strings I have ever heard. Frederick Fennell Dallas Wind Symphony Trittico Some of the finest recordings. Dynamic is not the word for it!! I s there another? Several Reference Recordings are excellent There are several more but I will save them |
@audio-b-dog , I am mystified! I used your search criteria and the only hit (first hit) that has “Maria Callas” in the title, this one accompanied by a pic (painting?) of Callas is in fact, 5:18 mins long. However, the clip is not of Callas. The title says “Maria Callas Recital, Puccini, etc.”; apparently referring to the name of the recital, not the name of the actual singer singing the aria. Stefana Bonfadelli is the soprano (of sorts, 😱). |
| Post removed |
I am posting Julian Bream playing three Villa Lobos preludes on guitar. The most beautiful guitat pieces I have ever heard. I was learning them when I quit my classical guitar lessons because of my divorce. These have as much duende (or whaterver the word is in Brazil) as anything I’ve ever heard. Villa Lobos was a street musician and his heart and soul was still in the streets of Brazil when he wrote classical music. Perhaps you’ll enjoy these, or at least watching Bream’s face as he plays them https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JZ68_pxL9M Here's a poem I wrote about Villa Lobos: Villa Lobos
in shady corners along walls where mud meets mud & old men in tatters sleep cool in the dusty air
a lover tiptoes from the softness of lips to the cold precision of strings |
RE: Bream, I love the emotion. BTW, I used to be in a band in Maine with a guy who, as part of his MFA degree program, had spent several months living with Snyder. Apparently, Snyder’s wife was not in the habit of wearing clothes during the summer months and this became such a distraction for my friend that in the end, he asked her to put some clothes on. This was the 70’s in CA, when nudity was "no big deal". . . or at least, that’s how you were expected to view it, if you were a cool counterculture brother.
|
Bream plays those pieces with more emotion than anyone else I’ve heard, including John Williams and Pepe Romero. So, if it’s emotion you’re looking for in classical music, you might start with Wagner. Not his operas themselves, but the preludes and overtures. Parsifal, Tristan and Isolde, Tannhauser, and Lohengrin. One of my favorites is his Magic Fire Music. I ran into Snyder a few times in the 70's and 80's when I went to hear him read. He was much admired for his Zen schtick, but as I look back on it, I think it was kind of ruse socially. Not that he didn't feel it in his poems. But I think he was a misogynist, like most men, and he used the Zen thing to excuse it. I went in to talk to him with my very pretty sister, and after that he was much more interested in taking her on motorcycle rides than talking about my poetry. Although, in his own sparse way, I thought he was an excellent teacher. |
In regards to poetry being upfront with its meaning, I think that is not poetry. It's an essay or something else. Poetry, like jazz, must light a spark between listener (& reader) who must give something of themselves. But it's not that hard. You just need to think a bit and then the spark ignites. I'm going to repost the Villa Lobos poem and then comment upon it, and you should feel that spark as a musician. illa Lobos
in shady corners along walls where mud meets mud & old men in tatters sleep cool in the dusty air
a lover tiptoes from the softness of lips to the cold precision of strings
I begin with an everyday lazy scene of old men dressed in taters sleeping in the shade. That's where art comes from, the streets. I say it more clearly in my Coltrane poem. Could there be a larger contrast between these old men and a lover tiptoeing from soft lips. This is where music comes from too. From flesh and passion. But, it must somehow be magically translated into an art form--in this case music--by the cold precision of strings. Isn't that what music is for you? A lot of sweat and callus on your fingers translating the passion of a lover and the secret the lover carries down the dusty street past the old men to the instrument that translates it for other humans. I'm going to repost the Coltrane poem later. Because I was disappointed that nobody commented on it. It's not super-duper obvious, but it doesn't take a lot of thought for it to become apparent. If I tried to sum it up in a one-line theme, well then it wouldn't require the music and language of poetry to bring it alive. |
There've been US poets laureate and poets who've won the Pulitzer whose poems are not difficult to understand.
|
Can you name a few poet laureats or any famous poets who you don't think are difficult to understand? I need to know what you're talking about. Thanks. And, do you think the poems I've posted are difficult to understand? Do you think Snyder is difficult to understand, because that's who I learned from. |
Re “getting it”: No one is suggesting that one has to like music that one is trying to “get”. This music is an artist’s expression. It belongs to the artist. The listener is a “guest”. Liking it can be considered secondary. Again, humility. However, if a listener wants to truly understand the full range and scope of a creative artist’s musical vision and evolution, he would do well to at least take it in and perhaps simply tolerate it with a listening or two. Personally, I find great value in that. The trick is to not waste time with the imposters. Not an imposter. Check out the lineup. Could so many greats be full of s#!t? Unlikely: |
But i like Puccini ...