We are on the same page about this...
For me also, there no relationship between genius and chronolectal time.
What about Sorabji or Scriabin ? Are they predictible ?
And how Gesualdo could be predictable ?
I learned how to appreciate Indian and Persian music ...Not boring at all...
The only music i dont like is music without genius nor heart...Most popular music is boring for me,...
Didgeridoo music is it boring ? not for me because it did something other music dont do...
Music initiate us to the history of consciousness...
All Western written music is a book into the soul history as linguistic is...Non western music are unique expression of consciousness ...
My taste exist as your taste exist but taste does not dictate my music listening history which is an expression of human consciousness ...
I am never bored by the art of the fugue ... I listened to it 1000 times...
It is a deep complex structure whose details cannot be grasped by 10 hearings with 10 different interpretations...
I dont listen first composers but mainly musicians interpretations of all style how can i be bored ?
Music is created by musician playing it each time in a different way... Nothing is boring in music save most industrial popular music ...
In a word all music not interpreted by top musicians can be boring... but no music interpreted and played by musicians of genius can...
This had nothing to do with my taste only with my own attention mastery...
When walking in a forest if i am not attentive i will be bored easily...
Music is a forest ...
|
@mahgister @simonmoon @stuartk
What I am hearing you say, @mahgister, is that you like a kind of soul wrenching depth in performances. If that is true, and I'm not saying it is, my response would be that I like Dostoevsky but I also like to read other authors who provide lighter fare. Of course, most novels today are written and read by women. Jane Austen is still huge.
But probably a more important point, directly pertinent to music, is how most performances of music are judged. Is the artist saying what the composer intended? Guess what? In the case of Debussy we don't have to guess. I am posting a piano roll of Debussy playing Debussy. He is not as lyrical (let's say mass appeal) as Entremont, nor as "expressive" as Moravec. I would call him definitive: "It is my music and this is the way it should be played!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3NX_TrxfVk
|
i like deep experience in books as in music...
But like everyone i read sometimes a novel or a biography for a relaxing lecture pleasure...
All the jazz i listen to is not deep music...
What I am hearing you say, @mahgister, is that you like a kind of soul wrenching depth in performances. If that is true, and I'm not saying it is, my response would be that I like Dostoevsky but I also like to read other authors who provide lighter fare. Of course, most novels today are written and read by women. Jane Austen is still huge.
I dont mind the composer interpretation so interesting it is because it is not always the best... And a work well composed contain information and colors and images even the composer never think about...Music goes deeper than the human brain creative power...It is why it is an experience of the heights and of the abyss and for me cinematographic or/and geometric...
The best interpretation is always the more expressive, the one who make you not only feel the music but "seeing" it ... In the cathedrale engloutie with Moravec we see the cathedral silent bell tower emerging from the sea.... I dont see anything with others pianist...
If you listen all Moravec albums you will know why someone called him "the pianist's pianists"...
|
@mahgister
I happen to agree with you that great musicians can find expression in compositions that the composer was not aware of. But I thought I'd throw out Debussy's interpretation as a baseline.
I enjoyed Furtwangler's interpretation of Schumann's 4th. I have it recorded by George Szell who is a great conductor, but not so great on Schumann's 4th. I think all conductors and musicians excel on certain pieces. I also heard it played at Disney Hall and did not like it at all. I think it was an original version by Schumann without the orchestration help of Brahms. Schumann admitted that he did not understand the orchestra like Beethoven, Brahms and others, and the second versions of his symphonies are far more interesting in the color they get from the orchestra.
I do not know if you have heard of Igor Levit, a young-ish pianist who I think gets extremely deeply into compositions. Here is a smple of him playing the first movement of Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata. I have never heard it played like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EGdL_P2iXE
|
|
@frogman
Thank you for that article on interpreting composers. I have a box set of Stravinsky conducting his three ballets. I have heard other interpretations that I like better. Being a great composer does not make one a great conductor which has not only to do with interpretation but the ability to convey to the orchestra that interpretation.
@mahgister
I have to stop reading "Ever-Present Origin." We can't discuss it here. Maybe you can try a PM and I might get an email to respond to. Briefly, when the author began talking about the awakening of the soul in "archaic man," he just lost me. First, he did not define what he means by soul. And secondly, If there is a soul, I believe it existed long before Homos sapiens. To me, his outlook is very 1966. So much thought has happened since then. Again, if you want to discuss further, try to PM me. Thanks.
|
First, the awakening of the soul is that: an awakening of the self consciousness...Then Gebser never said that the soul did not exist before homo sapiens but that it awake to new dimension of self reflection.
If you doubt even the soul could exist i am not suprised that you close the Gebser book...But your opinion about the soul inexistence appear so much dated exactly from the materialism era, and industrialization, since then things has changed recently , did you know ?
And anyway in spite of my sarcasm about materialism it makes no sense to critic a thinker saying his outlook is too much "1966"...We dont speak about design clothes here ...And the events which happened since Plato cannot be used as a reason to close off the book of a philosopher...
I understand that you already had your own set of ideas against which Gebser seems to goes opposite...
It is all good we do not understand things et see them from the same perspective...
I dont see what i can speak about which will beat Gebser ideas...
By the way i could recommend at least 50 others genius confirming his takes on the evolution of consciousness from all perspectives and fields...from acoustics to linguistics, to mathematics, psychology ,anthropology, history, epistemology... It was my job before retirement ...
I stop to read only mediocre book...I dont even need to stop reading them i sense them before 15 minutes...
And yes the "soul" exist...I trust mathematics and if the primes numbers appear more solid than a table as for existence, then the soul too is real...But materialist think that numbers are from some apes merely symbolic convention with no meanings... It is false but here the discussion is out of place... And too long with too many books to quote from ...
@mahgister
I have to stop reading "Ever-Present Origin." We can’t discuss it here. Maybe you can try a PM and I might get an email to respond to. Briefly, when the author began talking about the awakening of the soul in "archaic man," he just lost me. First, he did not define what he means by soul. And secondly, If there is a soul, I believe it existed long before Homos sapiens. To me, his outlook is very 1966. So much thought has happened since then. Again, if you want to discuss further, try to PM me. Thanks.
|
Thanks frogman for this very interesting article about musicians who are music itself...
All composers are first and last musician who could "interpret" their own work but any work of genius exceed his creator...They can interpret their own work but without ever exhausting it if it is a deep one...
Art of music is so deep,no one master it once for all even his own works escape the creator with a life of his own...
Simple evidence : each new interpretation of the art of the fugue on any set of instruments non intended by Bach reveal something new...
To feel bored listening to Bach or Josquin Des Prez pass my understanding and my perception...
I am never bored by great musicians who play any great work or improvised masterfully...
https://crosseyedpianist.com/2020/07/27/the-composer-intends/
|
In a word. music is boring if it is industrial production...
Music is not boring, it is our attention span and power often that makes music boring...
Music written or not is makes by musician...
Then speaking of a symphony from a composer without naming the musicians behind the interpretation makes no sense for me...
I never loved any composer BEFORE listening them by specific musicians which awake me to the composer creative potential because they were able to tap in the composer creativity in a way that touch me. It could be different interpretations for sure for others people. But interpretation, thats to say, musician playing "voices" is music, not the written paper.
Music meanings is linked to cultural history , if we are unable to read history through music we miss a lot...
Tastes must be educated as the ears must be trained...
Music like poetry or mathematics ask for attention training...
They exist boring people in my experience, but no boring music from any cultures on earth...
I listen music,i hear acoustics, as i read a book, the attention awaked...I judged it after deep listening.
We hear music with sounds conveying information about the vibrating sound source material and spiritual state, which are the vibrating instruments and the vibrating gesturing body of the musician even from his heart and mind...
Sound generate light, in the beginning was the "verb"....
A sound inside a sound,inside a sound; body,soul,spirit...
|
For those who have said they do not enjoy Beethoven, I am posting his most lyrical symphony, his 6th, Pastorale. The conductor is Bruno Walter who had conducted this symphony many times. This recording, however, was done when he was 80, and it is slow and musical. I think it is the most purchased album of Beethoven's 6th. I loved it the minute I heared it. If you go to classical music forums, it is almost always included as one of the best recordings of Beethoven's 6th. I hope you enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIjiKZR0BSs
|
@mahgister @frogman
As I have told you, I have little formal education in music. It seems to me, however, that a number of "modern" conductors change the timing of music to enhance its lyricism and power. By lengthening some notes and shortening others, as well as silences between notes, they find interpretations that are often more "romantic."
Although there are composers like Carlos Klieber (recognized by other conductors as perhaps the best conductor of the 20th century) who stick to the score with rigorous timing, but somehow enhance a piece of music to its utmost. Kleiber's recording of Beethoven's Fifth is a good example. His timing seems to my ear to be exacting, yet you cannot find a classical forum that does not list him as one of the best, if not the best, conductor of Beethoven's Fifth. I have also found this to be true of Karl Bohm. I have a record set of him conducting Mozart's later symphonies and also Beethoven's 6th. He is the only conductor whose 6th I enjoy as much as Bruno Walter's.
I have read that different historical periods produce different types of musical interpretations. I have seen a number of performances, as well as owning a number of recordings, by musicians who "deconstruct" a musical score and reconstruct it with very "modern" interpretations. I have heard Mirga Grazinyte-Tyla, (whom I believe will be one of the 21st centuries great conductors) tear apart Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto and produce something which I wouldn't have recognized, at least in some passages.
I have a boxed set of Fazil Say playing Mozart's piano concertos and he changes timing and dynamics in drastic ways which to my ear convey the "story" that I think @mahgister was talking about.
Hopefully @frogman will weigh in.
|
Save some miraculous exceptions, there is no perfect interpretation...
But my point was that music exist when a musician interpret it...
Musical work are resilient and able to support many interpretation perspectives...
The main point is listening to the musicians not to a dead corpse ( written score)...
|
Not enough time to give the subject its due, but, a couple of thoughts:
There is a (mistaken) tendency on the part of many music lovers to be too quick to deem a particular work, performance, performer, or conductor the “best”, “greatest”, “most soulful”, etc. without keeping matters in perspective and context. Think about it, many of the great works being discussed are a direct product of societal/political forces at play at the time of the composition, or performance. That is what artists do. Their work is an expression/reflection of the time, with all of the societal/political forces at play at the time. So, to judge a work or performance through a more current lens only is a necessarily incomplete judgment and ultimately pointless. A performance that is “more romantic” is not necessarily a good thing. The works of Shostakovich, for instance, with all the turmoil in the world at that time are seldom “romantic”; nor should they be.
BTW, while “timing” is a very important element of “interpretation”, it is only one factor. Instrumental balance, tonal color, dynamic detail and contrast are every bit as, sometimes more, important choices that a great conductor coaxes from the orchestra to make a great performance.
Sorry to be so brief.
|
@frogman
Thank you for your input. It really puts things in perspective. The two conductors I know best are Essa-Pekka Salonen and Gustavo Dudamel, both of whom have been music directors and principle conductors of the L.A. Phil. They are quite different, but I like them both.
When Dudamel first arrived in L.A., everygody was excited. My first impressions were that he had tremendous enthusiasm and vigor. In comparison, Salonen seemed to have more control. As Dudamel has been with the L.A. Phil longer, I am beginning to hear the inner color he develops. When he conducted The Firebird (entire ballet), with which I was very familiar, I could really hear his control over all the instruments. He still produced a vigorous Firebird, but the tonal color and dynamic detail were also obvious to me. Because I do not play a musical instrument, and I have not studied music theory, it takes a long time for my ear to pick up on things like that. Thanks again.
|
@audio-b-dog
For those who have said they do not enjoy Beethoven, I am posting his most lyrical symphony, his 6th, Pastorale.
Very nice. I wonder if it's available as a standard redbook CD. Will look...
|
@stuartk
Yes it is available as a standard CD. If you can play SACD, I think it's also available.
|
|
Thanks for this one ...
I will go for his Strauss and his Rachmaninoff...
There is no objective best interpretation , but there is an historical ranking by universal acclaim (for example Rubinstein Chopin or Sofronitsky Scriabin )
But one thing is certain, each one of us has his own history with music , and in our heart there is the best interpretation ever and sometimes for ever ... our heart judge not our brain ...It is how sometimes we discover some music by being stunned for life ...I was by Scriabin when i stumble on a pianist able to play him ...Sofronitsky stunned me... I am not alone...
Here’s a lovely aria called "Song to the Moon" from Dvorak’s Rusalka sung by a lovely soprano named Asmik Grigorian.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us_F2xLJgKI
|
@mahgister
"I will go for his Strauss and his Rachmaninoff..."
I don’t know if you are talking about Bruno Walter. I think he is best known for Wagner and Mahler. It is only on Beethoven’s 6th for which he is famous, and only his latter performance at 80. I have a collection of him playing all of Beethoven’s symphonies prior to stereo. Perhaps made in the early fifties. As I said earlier, Carlos Kleiber is almost undisputed on Beethoven’s 5th. I will paste the youtube. I think, however, he also is first rate on Beethoven’s 7th. I have a bunch of Beethoven symphony collections people gave me when they got rid of their vinyl collections. It’s almost confusing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNpyRBVTavQ
I am listening to Ivan Moravec playing Mozart's 20th Piano Concerto. Not like anything I've heard before. Very impressive.
|
@mahgister
"I will go for his Strauss and his Rachmaninoff..."
I was speaking of the singer Asmik Grigorian...
|
My godly pianist (badly recorded as usual) playing a godly composer :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRD78IG4VN8&list=RDJRD78IG4VN8&start_radio=1
The reason why, is because music is not only only about timing, or timbre colors, it is about a dimension of time, the musical time, which cannot be measured in any way possible, only felt, because it is a quality.
The cosmos is centered around these times qualities as an orchestra masterly directed by a maestro who is one with the musicians. As Furtwangler was claimed Gergiev. This is why his 4 th of Schumann is unique if not the best for everybody,the best for me.
|
I dont know much about music as musicians know about it...
I will be frank, i dont listen too much many new music pieces why ?
Because i was enthralled by some classical music over every other because of some interpretation...
I hate opera but i am in love with some operas because of the interpretation...
I discovered simply that in classical music i love to be moved, some interpretation did, most did not...
It is why i spoke about "the greatest interpretation" for me , i must add for me...
there is greater interpretation so great that all the rest of music may appear way under it...
It is how i fell in love with Marian Anderson or Scriabin...
miracles exist. Not all is about taste. Some interpretations are so sublime that they are a revelation (for me) ...
And i hope they will appear such for all or at least a few...
Gesualdo is boring sang by most, sublime sang by inspired singers..A volcano...
This is why i love Gesualso, because i discovered some musicians able to sing the impossible...
That is for me the greatest interpretation..
I was awaken by some interpretation that stayed for me the greatest,... Sometimes it reflect my personal idiosyncracy but sometimes it is also a universally recognized fact as for Furtwangler in the Schumann fourth...Or about Sofronitsky recognized as a sublime pianist over all in Scriabin even recognized as such by Richter and many others great pianists...
|
@mahgister @stuartk
I understand how youthful passions stay with us. And Sofronitsky definitely captures the passions of Scriabin. I'm not always into that kind of passion, though. For me, sometimes music is just about beauty. And that's a huge word, I know. It's definition could almost be that we all know it when we see it.
I'm posting Mozart's 21st Piano Concerto, which I think is like a perfectly cut diamond. You'll notice the album cover is from a movie from the sixties. It was about two beautiful people who tried to leave society, and, of course, like Romeo and Juliet found this to be impossible. I have worn out this album several times and have had to repurchase a mint copy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPKW37ZZeFw
|
I discovered "musical time" listening Bruckner symphonies non stop for 6 months...
Then i discovered Scriabin...
Scriabin music and theories exhibit a synesthetic perspective.This is why it is easier "to see" the late music of Scriabin than to whistle it. Musical time in it unfold in and from a non linear spiral of tones not from beats and rythms external to the spiral, they are internally born from it when the pianist plays and render them in linear time . Very few pianist are really able to understand and render it...
To understand what i speak about listen this 2 minutes video :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_qCFuWlAMo
or this longer 5 minutes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBrHPLzrAc4
In Russia a pianist is great if he can play Scriabin , as in Poland he is great playing Chopin or not well , as in Hungary playing Liszt...
Here interpretation is everything and there is no so much matter let to our taste...
listen to this "bad recording piano" of a genius :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93dWui2fi2g&list=PL5DE3A83BD9995664
One of the only rival to Sofronistsky, the immense and unknown in the West Neuhaus father here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEK1PctlQgk&list=RDPEK1PctlQgk&start_radio=1
now the tremendous Igor Zukhov :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhhVsQIRrCc&list=RDDhhVsQIRrCc&start_radio=1
Now the son of Neuhaus Heinrich, Stanislas Neuhaus one of the pillar of the Russian school of piano :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fUG9pyqcKQ&list=RD2fUG9pyqcKQ&start_radio=1
We all know Michelangeli or Pollini but who know Viktor Merzhanov :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjHioPPaK2E&list=RDmjHioPPaK2E&start_radio=1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxhGoTo0tV0
Now you must read an article about the "saint" pianist Maria Yudina and his fearless relation with Stalin...
She was considered one of the greatest pianist in Russia too poor to have a piano most of the times :
https://angelusnews.com/voices/the-legend-of-stalins-holy-fool/
lIsten his Scriabin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KIO9U8icBE
We know merely the Russian pianists who went to the West, as Richter, Horowitz,Gilels,Rachmaninoff, etc not those who stay there...
How many know Jakob Flier ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ms_qO8czTa4&list=RDMs_qO8czTa4&start_radio=1
|
@audio-b-dog
I think I remember seeing the film. The lovers commit suicide at the end, right ?
Sometimes I want to hear music that reconnects me to youthful passions. Sometimes not.
@mahgister
That 5 minute video was very interesting. Looks like a channel I’d enjoy exploring further, although I suspect much of it is above my head.
I’m curious: what would your top recommendations be for recordings of Scriabin solo piano on CD that are readily available?
|
|
To change the topic entirely, I am not a huge Dylan fan. With all the great poets in the world, I didn't think he deserved the Nobel Prize in Literature. I do have a lot of his albums and play them from time to time. I am probably a bigger Judy Collins fan. I have worn out a few of her albums and had to look for mint copies on the used market. So, I'm posting Judy Collins singing "Just Like Tom Thumb Bllues," one of my favorite cuts. You'll see th album cover on my post.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcCcA6O6QLU
|
@mahgister
Thanks -- too bad about the SQ issues.
@audio-b-dog
Was he given the award for poetry? If so, I’d agree with you.
I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, he’d received it for songwriting.
It’s a (in my opinion) popular misconception that song lyrics are poetry set to music. Songwriting is a discipline all its own, and not at all an easy one, if one wishes to become even moderately skilled.
If the award was given to him as a songwriter, I cannot disagree with the committee. He, more than anyone, opened the door to writing song lyrics that honestly and unflinchingly address human experience. Yes; he drew upon the influence of others-- Delta Blues, UK and US folk song, Hank Williams, Standards, etc. but he synthesized these diverse influences in a way that no-one had before while at the same time developing a unique creative voice and perspective. In my view, he is a titanic figure in American music. Without Dylan, I very much doubt there would have been a John Prine, Joni Mitchell, Kris Kristofferson, Neil Young, Robert Hunter, Robbie Robertson, Bruce Springsteen, Paul Simon, James Taylor or Jackson Browne, to name but a few. Who else has had exerted such an influence upon the craft? While I don’t listen to all of his output, there are certain periods I still enjoy very much.
You’re comparing Judy Collins singing Dylan to Bob Dylan writing "Just LIke Tom Thumb’s Blues" but Dylan didn’t get the award for his singing. There are thousands of competent singers who could sing that song. But they couldn’t have written it.
|
If anyone says I failed to list all of Dylan’s influences, they are of course, correct. Jazz, Vaudeville, Bluegrass, Singing Cowboys, Urban Blues, Country artists in addition to Hank, Gospel are some others, not to mention poets and novelists. . .
And while it's true the lyricist from teh so-called "Golden Age of Songwriting" addressed plenty of "grown up" topics, it was typically obliquely, often utilizing clever word-play to suggest and imply, rather than spell out clearly. No doubt there's a craft and certain sophistication to such an approach but it also adheres to social taboos that many who grew up in the 50's and 60's found to be claustrophobic and stifling to the spirit.
|
@stuartk
I'm listening to Wayne Shorter's "Speak No Evil." It is beautifully recorded on Qobuz. Otherwise I would have bought the album. Thanks for the tip.
Dylan might have received the Nobel Prize for Literature. I can't remember. I know what you're saying about song writing being different than poetry, but some song writers are much more poetic than others. Probably Leonard Cohen and Joni Mitchell go on the top of my list for poetics. Also Paul Simon. I think the best poem/song Dylan ever wrote was "All Along the Watchtower." It works like a poem with an open ending to draw the reader in, and have them go back and pay more attention to what led up to the open ending.
I'm not comparing Judy Collins singing to Bob Dylan's writing. I just think that's the best version of "Tom Thumb's Blues" I've ever heard. Did you catch Ry Cooder's guitar? He's unmistakeable. There are a few musicians I can always tell. Stevie Wonder's harmonica. In jazz, of course, Coltrane's sax and Miles Davis' trumpet. Stan Getz and Chet Baker. I don't think we ever talked about Paul Desmond and the west coast jazz players on the jazz forum. I am a fan.
Back to Bob Dylan. I had some musician friends when I was at Berkeley and I remember one, David Lieberman, excitedly playing "Hey Mister Tamborine Man" for me. He had never heard anything like it. Although, I don't know if you could say a new type of song writing wouldn't have happened without Dylan. Newton and Leibniz discovered calculus at the same time. To me that proves that when something is ready to happen, it will. But, yes, let's give Dylan credit. The biggest problem I have with him is the misogyny in his songs. Women often take a bad rap. And on that topic of gender, I must admit that "Mr. Jones" was brilliantly filled with inference.
But if any song writer should have gotten the Nobel Prize for Literature, I think it should have been Leonard Cohen, who was a poet as well as song writer. I don't think he was influenced by Dylan, but having Dylan open up the field for new types of music probably helped him. I heard Dylan interviewed and he compared himself to Paul Simon. He said he couldn't write melodies like Simon. He wrote words and put them on old tunes. I don't know if that's always true, but it is true a lot of the time.
|
@audio-b-dog
You’re welcome.
I’d certainly agree that some songwriters are more poetic. I’d also agree that there would’ve been some sort of change in approach to songwriting in the 60’s/70’s without Dylan, but who can say what that would have been? It may well be that due to growing up when I did, I’m according Dylan more credit than he deserves. I’m not a scholar. I’m not a huge fan of P. Simon so I don’t feel I can be very objective comparing him to Dylan. Joni Mitchell has spoken about two Major influences : Dylan and the crooners such as Bing Crosby as embodying, respectively, the virtues of open ended lyric writing and melody. She saw both as crucial. Dylan, in an interview with Dan Rather (who’s done a series of surprisingly good interviews with musical icons from 60s’70’s) asserted he "didn’t know who wrote" his early songs such as Gates of Eden. He said after a certain point, he could no longer write that way, as if some magic had dispersed.
As far as misogyny goes, there is plenty of blame to go around, in various genres/fields. This question of whether /to what degree, an artist’s bad behavior should/shouldn’t shape our view of his art has come up before on the forum. For some, it’s a gray area; for others, it’s black and white. Edward Weston cheated on his wife a lot. To what degree should this affect my appreciation for his photographs? If I reject his work, does that improve the lives of women? What do you think?
|
I cannot understand any poet failing to love Dylan or Cohen...
I like them and dislike most popular music...
And English is not my language...
In French the only singer i listened to is Léo Ferré... A poet too ...
I like old french songs and old english songs though... But it is considered classical music...
|
@mahgister
Before I say anything, you must afford me the right to my opinion. I am a person with perhaps more complicated opinions than others. Bob Dylan is about six years older than I am, but we're basically of the same generation even though I am considered a Baby Boomer and he of the Silent Generation. He wasn't at all silent, I think we can all agree on that.
When I am afforded extra, kind of "inside" information about celebrities, I often make judgements. I live in L.A. and I often receive this kind of information. From what I have heard, Dylan is a sad person. Although he has been with quite a few women (as have I) and fathered children (not I), he seems to be pretty much alone. He has never developed familial ties.
The roots of Dylan's early relations with women are well defined in the recent film about him, "A Complete Unknown." The film pretty much ends with one of the women he was with (Joan Baez?) flipping him off. The film portrays him as a person who is more interested in himself than anyone else. I think his later years have shown him to be a kind of recluse.
How has all of this affected his music? His music about social matters are strong and don't seem to be affected. His music about personal matters, however, do seem to be affected by this. Just listen to how he writes about women. Kind of Madonna/whore syndrome. Does this make him less of a good poet. Yes. I say yes.
Leonard Cohen also had complicated relationships with women, but his songs are so nuanced on the matter. Leonard Cohen writes about relationships in so much more of a loving way than Dylan. He sees himself as an actor, whereas Dylan pretty much sees himself as a victim. I'm sorry. I'm a poet and I listen to lyrics.
In regards to his stance on social matters, I think Dylan was important. But so were other singers who influenced him. Woody Guthrie and Pete Seager. Probably Hank Williams. So to summarize, as a social commenter, Dylan was important and strong, although there was a lineage behind him. As a writer of personal matters, Dylan was pretty weak, especially compared to songwriters around him like Leonard Cohen and Joni Mitchell, who were able to see themselves in their writing.
Bob Dylan's poetics was often pretty lazy. He'd throw in an extra word not used in conversaton to complete an iamb. (Unstressed, stressed.) It was not really noticed. People didn't care about it because his social songs were so new and strong. Although he has a witchy woman in "Tom Thumb Blues," he also has strong and beautiful imagery. In "Maggie's Farm" he is the victim of a woman. On one of my favorite albums (I have almost all of his work on vinyl) "Nashville Skyline," women are idealized. But the music is lovely and there is always Johnny Cash.
I understand that probably a lot of writers and poets who have been awarded the Nobel have lived lonely, screwed-up lives, but I don't know about them, and I do know something about Bob Dylan.
On the other hand, Leonard Cohen lived a somewhat magical life. He spent years in a Buddhist monestary trying to figure himself out as he got older. People loved him and he loved others, even those he had to leave.
Joni Mitchell was probably more self-aware in her songs than anyone. I listen to the lyrics. In the future I will post songs that I think are well wrought, with strong lyrics. I admit that "Tom Thumb Blues" is one of those songs. The lyrics stand up and are complex. But so many of Bob Dylan's songs don't stand up so well. And in very few, if any, is he self-aware.
So, I am not a friend or confidant of Bob Dylan and I may be totally wrong in my judgement. Some people might say I'm wrong to judge at all. Yet, I do. And that's me.
|
For sure you had the right to your opinion as i have and we are different and as frogman says there is no best only "our own best" informed by our own journey...
In your post you spoke a lot about the personal life of these two artists and their relation to women...
For me i did not pay attention to these aspects as very important but only part of a larger journey...( i try to not judge people life with narrow glasses of my prefered color)
I must say i did not understand history or poetry as a war between patriarchy versus matriarchy... I see it on other ground...Try Iain McGilchrist if Jean Gebser is outdated, McGilchrist live right now...He rooted his work in the hemispherical modes of attention...
Or try another genius who also treated consciousness history in relation with language but he is dead and probably outdated if i takes into account your use of dating for philosophical work : Julian Jaynes "the genesis of consciousness in the breakdown of the bi-cameral mind"... Jaynes too use a theory of hemispheric polarities but different than McGilchrist... I will not enter into deetails here ...
Anyway i apologize if i defended Dylan who nevermind his life, was a poet of the highest kind in the popular scene as "murder no foul" demonstrated as his last genius work...
To make amend i will give you to listen a feminine singer not well known i love a lot : Masha Vahdat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJYMLzbHdWM&list=RDEJYMLzbHdWM&start_radio=1
And another one popular in Russia a veritable poet who sing poetry, no need to understand Russian" to be moved :
Elena Frolova:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFEeNcvgPVo&list=RDiFEeNcvgPVo&start_radio=1
Abida Parveen who move even mountain:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR7WrlUM3FE&list=RDfR7WrlUM3FE&start_radio=1
As you can see in popular music i am very attuned to the feminine power...I owned most of their music, which is a lot of albums by Frolova in particular...
I must add Tripti Mukherjee among many other feminine vocalists i love dearly:
Here she sing with one of the greatest Indian singer :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j4brANIdE8&list=RD4j4brANIdE8&start_radio=1
@mahgister
Before I say anything, you must afford me the right to my opinion. I am a person with perhaps more complicated opinions than others. Bob Dylan is about six years older than I am, but we’re basically of the same generation even though I am considered a Baby Boomer and he of the Silent Generation. He wasn’t at all silent, I think we can all agree on that.
When I am afforded extra, kind of "inside" information about celebrities, I often make judgements. I live in L.A. and I often receive this kind of information. From what I have heard, Dylan is a sad person. Although he has been with quite a few women (as have I) and fathered children (not I), he seems to be pretty much alone. He has never developed familial ties.
The roots of Dylan’s early relations with women are well defined in the recent film about him, "A Complete Unknown." The film pretty much ends with one of the women he was with (Joan Baez?) flipping him off. The film portrays him as a person who is more interested in himself than anyone else. I think his later years have shown him to be a kind of recluse.
How has all of this affected his music? His music about social matters are strong and don’t seem to be affected. His music about personal matters, however, do seem to be affected by this. Just listen to how he writes about women. Kind of Madonna/whore syndrome. Does this make him less of a good poet. Yes. I say yes.
Leonard Cohen also had complicated relationships with women, but his songs are so nuanced on the matter. Leonard Cohen writes about relationships in so much more of a loving way than Dylan. He sees himself as an actor, whereas Dylan pretty much sees himself as a victim. I’m sorry. I’m a poet and I listen to lyrics.
In regards to his stance on social matters, I think Dylan was important. But so were other singers who influenced him. Woody Guthrie and Pete Seager. Probably Hank Williams. So to summarize, as a social commenter, Dylan was important and strong, although there was a lineage behind him. As a writer of personal matters, Dylan was pretty weak, especially compared to songwriters around him like Leonard Cohen and Joni Mitchell, who were able to see themselves in their writing.
Bob Dylan’s poetics was often pretty lazy. He’d throw in an extra word not used in conversaton to complete an iamb. (Unstressed, stressed.) It was not really noticed. People didn’t care about it because his social songs were so new and strong. Although he has a witchy woman in "Tom Thumb Blues," he also has strong and beautiful imagery. In "Maggie’s Farm" he is the victim of a woman. On one of my favorite albums (I have almost all of his work on vinyl) "Nashville Skyline," women are idealized. But the music is lovely and there is always Johnny Cash.
I understand that probably a lot of writers and poets who have been awarded the Nobel have lived lonely, screwed-up lives, but I don’t know about them, and I do know something about Bob Dylan.
On the other hand, Leonard Cohen lived a somewhat magical life. He spent years in a Buddhist monestary trying to figure himself out as he got older. People loved him and he loved others, even those he had to leave.
Joni Mitchell was probably more self-aware in her songs than anyone. I listen to the lyrics. In the future I will post songs that I think are well wrought, with strong lyrics. I admit that "Tom Thumb Blues" is one of those songs. The lyrics stand up and are complex. But so many of Bob Dylan’s songs don’t stand up so well. And in very few, if any, is he self-aware.
So, I am not a friend or confidant of Bob Dylan and I may be totally wrong in my judgement. Some people might say I’m wrong to judge at all. Yet, I do. And that’s me.
|
