@mapman
All very good points. Perhaps I am just a Van Morrison fan who thinks that he does not get enough credit. Yes, I am. But that aside, the Beatles, whom I dearly loved during the sixties, went in a number of different directions. They had country songs, blues songs, and their own wonderful songs. A lot of it, I think, was satirical about the British society. They wanted to break out of the stuffy British morality. Seargent Pepper for me was a bit satirical on old British music. It wasn't ground-breaking for me musically, aside from the fact that I'd never heard a rock band satirize old British musical styles. Pink Floyd I associate with the seventies.
Van Morrison is perhaps the best voice of his generation. Of course, that's coming from a Van Morrison fan. When he sang TB Sheets, which came out in 67, nobody had ever thought like that before. He's a blues, jazz, R&B, soul, classical, spiritual singer. So, just chalk up what I'm saying to a Van Morrison fan who thinks he's not mentioned enough in serious rock conversations.
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@stuartk,
I will definitely listen to Richard Thompson. I've never heard of him.
I agree with you on balance. What I think my research has taught me is how incredibly imbalanced we are. Almost all, if not all, of our thinking is from males. If you studied philosophy, you studied males for the most part.
The Greeks and Jews, upon whom our thinking is based, were both misogynistic societies. And that misogyny is built into our culture, our language, and our male think.
To take it a step further, I believe that females were more inherintly powerful before the patriarchal takeover around 7 or 8 thousand years ago. Why? Well, we can see the results, that's for sure. In my writing, I want to make this plain to the reader without writing philosophy.
In music, I think it will take a while for women to bring a strong influence unless they are slapped back as they have always been. If we cannot incorporate a feminine view as voiced by females not male interpreters, I thinked were screwed.
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@audition__audio
I've been studying this subject for 15 years and I promise you, you don't have any idea about what you don't know. Your reaction, however, is helpful to me. I like to know what readership I'll be facing. And you're probably on the far extreme of defensiveness.
In regards to my overall thoughts being misogynistic, you are so, so wrong. When I begin to explain what I'm writing about to women, they just get it right away. Not a hint that they think I'm misogynistic. My grandaughter came over with a few of her girlfriends and they couldn't have been more interested. If it makes you feel any better, your on the opposite end of things when it comes to GenZ women.
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@stuartk, @larsman
I am listening to Richard Thompson now. He reminds me more of Gordon Lightfoot than Van Morrison. Kind of a north country sound with Celtic rhythms thrown in. I will listen to him with his wife Linda next. BTW, I watched the documentary on Gordon Lightfoot. It was 11:30 and I wanted something I could turn off in 15 minutes and go to bed. I stayed up past one to finish it. A fascinating story.
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On the assumption that most of you don't know Van Morrison's range, I'm posting a song off "Veldon Fleece," an album most of you have never heard of. For those who will indulge me, please listen to the band's setup. It's basically a jazz band. And Van Morrison's voice is another jazz instrument. He does things with his voice that are far beyond what I've ever heard with a rock singer. Maybe a jazz singer?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcoLgQ1HVYc
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@bigtwin ,
Good song. I've heard it done by a number of women but I like this one. I first saw Tom Scott and the L.A. Express at the Troubador in L.A. He was backing up Joni Mitchell.
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@stuartk,
I like a lot of ideas in the youtube you posted. I think there is no question that music affects our emotions and moods. I have no idea what it means to affect our DNA. Although, I think that since I've begun listening to music all morning and early afternoon, I have become more "mellow" and accepting. I don't get stressed out the way I used to.
As for your series of notes, I don't have an instrument to play them and I can't imagine them in my head. Maybe you'll play with them on your guitar? It seems like the Mhiz posted on the youtube were all mid-bass?
As for patterning in general, I did a lot of reading about fractals and complexity a number of years ago. I've also read some interesting books on the evolution of the universe. The British physicist Paul Davies has written about the universe and God. I read a book about the Gaia Theory by James Lovelock many years ago. He talks about the universe and the earth being living beings. Mathematical fractals correspond to the shapes of leaves and other natural occurrences. An artist friend talked to me about some studies that found fractals in Jackson Pollack's art.
I often wonder what the earliest music must have sounded like. I assume it had a strong beat and the melody from a flute or whatever was less important than it is today. Music is the only art that exists in time, as @mahgister has talked about, and I have a feeling that the beats in time are fundamental to any human music.
@kofibaffour,
Thank you for the list. I'll listen to the ladies later. I've been listening to Robyn as I write this because it's late in the day and I need a kick in the ass. I, too, love the female voice. Maybe I'll post some youtube examples later.
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@mahgister,
All of this musical sophistication couldn't have occurred at once. Certain things must have happened first, then others, then others. Early Homos sapiens probably didn't have a concept of time beyond the sun setting and rising. Phases of the moon, too. This is a total aside, but I wonder what was inherited from the Neanderthals. Apparently they made art and buried their people.
I don't think Einstein every speculated on how people experience time in relative time frames. It seemed to me that the twin going nearly the speed of light would experience relative time the same as the twin "standing still." A concept that nobody has ever explained to my satisfaction. How can it be that centrifugal force works whether we're on a space ship traveling 60,000 mph relative to the earth or resting on the earth?
@kofibaffour ,
Below I will post a youtube of one of my favorite female singers, Tracy Thorne of "Everything but the Girl." In the jazz forum we were talking about Billie Holiday having a limited voice but tremendous depth of emotion. I am not comparing Tracy Thorne with Billy Holiday, exceept she also has a somewhat limited voice with not a lot of range, yet she hits me emotionally as deeply as any other singer. Her husband Ben Watt lays down the background.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAKpK5E09Ys
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@richardbrand, @mahgister,
As a few of you know, I have certain biases regarding music. @mahgister I agree with Neitsche too. He said tragic plays need music behind them.
My interest is in religion. I am not religious, but a student of religion as it is an expression of historical periods and peoples. I don't think I'll get into the discussion about how music began because it is irrelevant to my beliefs.
I think David Lewis Williams in his book "The Mind in the Cave" and G.R. Levy in her book "The Gate of Horn" made strong arguments that the ancient caves were churches. I won't go into my arguments about why I think women were the first shamans and priests, but Williams made a strong argument that the shamans and priests did the cave paintings.
When I talk about "religion" from the Upper Paleolithic, I am talking about a spiritual expression without dogma. I see it as an existential expression. "I exist as part of the earth which is the Great Mother." It is pretty clear from archaeological findings that the idea of a deity was female up until maybe 9,000 years ago. The poet Enehduanna (circa 2300 BCE) lamented the lowering of the goddess Inanna's status below gods among the Sumerians. So, that gives a hint as to the timing of the elevation of male gods.
Okay, back to music. I believe that art (including music) and "religion" were one thing to the primitives. They had no distinction between the two. So, I see music as an outlet of the spiritual expression that I/we exist as part of the universe, the Great Mother. The Great Mother was not above or outside the creation, she was part of it, a belief that would later be called Pantheism and be labled heretical.
Again back to music. The music I like best has an element of "soul" to it, its roots ranging back to what I believe was the earliest music. And of course that early music included dance as @mahgister implied.
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I don’t think I can categorize the music I like. Similar to @Daledeee1, I have had a music system pretty much all my life. My first record player being given to me at around 10. I, too, now have Qobuz on a decent streamer that sounds better than a CD player because of the higher sampling resolution. I could only listen to new music, but some music has become the background of my life and I have to go back to it. It’s not songs, though. It’s albums.
I could not make a list like @simonmoon of the musical attributes that appeal to me. Although I go to the L.A. Phil at Disney Hall and often hear new music. Sometimes I have purchased CDs of some new music I have heard and it becomes part of my collection, numbering about a thousand albums and a thousand CDs. Too much, I think.
What are my comfort albums? I must hear Beethoven at least once a week. Usually several times a week. And Van Morrison is a regular on my turntable.
@mahgister,
I listened to a CD I haven’t played in many years. Szymanowski’s Symphonie Concertante. It sounded "experimental" enough (although probably a hundred years old) to be on @simonmoon’s list. Do you know this composer?
I often play Sibelius, although he doesn’t have the complexity of Beethoven, but few composers do. I have been listening to a lot of jazz lately because I belong to the Jazz Aficianado forum. I’m listening to Coltrane’s "Crescent" now. Although I have the vinyl album, I was lazy and played it from Qobuz. Vinyl sounds better, but it’s kind of background music now.
@ghdprentice,
I was painting up until maybe three, four years ago. Larger canvases. Abstract colorfield. I used to play rock and dance as I painted. My back is not what it used to be and after a half hour, I had to quit painting. So, not worth it. But one of my top go-to groups was the Stones. Good dancing music. Also Robyn "Body Talk." Great dancing music.
I write everyday (or at least aspire to) and mostly listen to jazz or classical music during the mornings. I know most pieces so well, they don’t distract me. Today I listened to Beethoven’s 6th Symphony. I have many versions of it. Years ago I picked up Bruno Walter’s version made around 1960 when he was 80. It might be the most popular version because he approaches the piece with such slow lyricism. Also at the top of the list for Beethoven’s 6th is Karl Bohm. I had to think hard about buying his album because he was an unapologetic Nazi, playing for Hitler. But then, so were a number of conductors whose albums I own. I can hardly listen to von Karajan anymore. His music seems to me like his photographs look: a poseur.
Mitsuko Uchida has become my favorite classical pianist and I am posting the 2nd movement of the Schubert Impromptu 899. On this piece, I think she is most brilliant and her touch and nuance are absolutely alive. This is a stunning piece of music if you haven’t heard it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9YTnoBqGI4
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@nonamesleft4me,
Please let us know when that Gershwin recording is available. I, for one, would like to hear it.
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@nonamesleft4me
Sorry, but I can't do PMs. I worked with a support person, but it became complicated. I'm going to call back support and go through the ordeal of having my screen changed. Also, it's against the rules for me to share personal information with you. Can you upload one of your pieces so that you can post them here?
@grannyring
TB sheets is absolutely a powerful song. I believe it must have influenced Van Morrison to write "Astral Weeks" which was a huge leap from previous rock n' roll. I'm posting an amazing recording of Patti Smith singing Van's "Gloria."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPO0bTaWcFQ
@richardbrand
I probably shouldn't have compared Sibelius to Beethoven. I have no shcolastic education in music. My knowledge all comes from listening to recordings and listening to live music. I heard Sibelius's First Symphony conducted by Esa Pekka Salonen live. It was quite an experience. Salonen I think captures the Finnish chill. It's not a bad thing. I've listened to Salonen live for years and have liked his superb control.
I have many recordings of Sibelius's symphonies. The last set I bought was by Paavo Berglund. I have a record of Sibelius's Sixth conducted by Herbert von Karajan. I thought I didn't like the sixth until I heard it conducted by Dudamel (I think). Von Karajan killed it, and not in a good way. I will Qobuz Klaus Mikela and listen to his version of a few Sibelius symphonies. The Fifth is my favorite, but I've also gotten into his less dramatic symphonies, like the Third and Seventh. My guess is that his Second is the most popular.
@mahgister
Sorry, I don't listen to Monteverdi. I think I heard one of his operas. I had opera tickets for 12 years but gave them up about 13 years ago. Monteverdi is a bit early for me. I've never developed a taste for music before Mozart, with the exception of Bach. Although, I do have several recordings of Albanani. And I am getting a bit more into Haydn.
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@richardbrand
I listened to Klaus Mikela conduct Sibelius's 5th. It was excellent. He paced the first movement faster than I am used to but it worked really well. On all the movements his tempo did not vary to achieve dramatic effect. He reminded me of the reknown Carlos Kleiber whose Beethoven's 5th seems to be on the top of everybody's list. I will listen to more of Sibelius conducted by Mikela.
@stuartk ,
I am working my way through your Bluegrass list. I liked Strength in Numbers, Sarah Jarosz, and Stray Birds. Their music is uplifting. I did not like Mick McCauley and Winifred Horan as much. Perhaps ironic that they're the classically trained musicians. Their music felt a bit pristine without enough rough edges.
@mahgister
I didn't really answer your question about the correlation between genius and chronological time. When talking about art--all the arts--I don't really know what genius is. It's not exactly what I'm talking about. Certainly with all that Haydn accomplished, inventing the symphony, string quartet, etc., he could be considered a genius. The period he composed in, however, is not that interesting to me. It's a bit too refined. I like the emotionally charged Romantics and beyond.
I am much more educated in writing, so I can talk a little more intelligently about it. After Shakespeare, English writers became boring for around 100 years. I've heard theories that Shakespeare was too intimidating to follow. Alexander Pope was a genius at rhyme and meter, but his poems are boring to me. And that pretty much holds through the 1700s until the Romantics begin with Wordsworth around 1800.
Before I started painting, and realized I wanted to paint non-representationally, my wife and I would go on trips to various countries with interesting museums. In my mid-forties I felt myself pulled toward "abstract" non-representational paintings, and spent more time in modern-art museums. It wasn't that I couldn't appreciate earlier artists. They just didn't interest me as much. It's about taste for me, not the talent of the artists.
More and more I am pulled toward modern classical music, Stravinsky, Bartok, Shostakovich, Corigliano, etc. I believe that Beethoven is the great genius of music, but often I want music closer to my time.
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@polkalover
I don't think that AI will be the end of good music or good art in general. The world has been flooded with dross in all the fields of art throughout history. As a writer working on a book for many years, I have to confront this fear almost daily. But most people have read formulaic beach reads from the beginning of mass-market publishing. You don't need AI to produce soulless music. It has been produced all my life. Even people under the most severe totalitarian regimes (which I think is more dangerous to truthful art) have written truths that threaten the overwhelming power of the state. If you have read the book or seen the movie "Farenhite 451," that is a great analogy about how small pockets of people seeking truth can keep the flame alive. Dystopian despair crushes the soul worse than anything else.
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@desktopguy @mahgister
I am a musical dunce when it comes to playing. My one claim to fame, however, is that I was chosen for senior chorus in 6th grade. I was a soprano (then). We sang "Inch Worm, Inch Worm, measuring the marigolds."
I was raised in a secular household. We never went to services. I think that is why I was not biased against sacred music. I think Bach's Mass in B Minor comes straight from the heavens. Perhaps the best piece of music ever written. I had a chance to see it live in Disney Hall. We all sat down low because there were not enough people to fill the hall. Strange that so few people would want to hear such a beautiful piece of music.
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@desktopguy
I don't know if you've ever read Oliver Sachs. He was a British neurologist and writer who wrote about synesthesia and music. His book Musicophelia was about how music affects the mind. There was also a documentary about the book. A fascinating study.
I, too, was interested in music at a young age, but what I found interesting was more age appropriate. Elvis Presley in 5th grade. I also went to Pacoima Jr. High, the school Ritchie Valens went to. He came to our auditorium to give a free concert for the students. I was mesmerized that anybody could be so good. I had never heard a professional before.
I liked the top ten when I was in elementary school and middle school. I went to my next door neighbor's to hear their new console (I don't know if it was stereo or not) and they played popular orchestral music. I said, "You listen to music without words!" At that age, I had no idea how people could enjoy music without somebody singing.
Our musical enjoyment changes over our lifetime, as does what we listen to music on. When I only had $500 to spend on an entire stereo, I believed it was the best stereo in the world. Same when I upgraded it with $500 speakers. I always believe I am listening to music produced as well as it can be. And for my ears, at that time in my life, it is true.
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@stuartk ,
I like the youtube band you just sent me. Yes, they have rough edges, and I love her Irish accent, if that's what it is. One of the people you sent me to listen to, and now I've forgotten the name, seemed to be playing the same songs as David Grisman only sweetly on a guitar. It sounded like a classically-trained guitarist.
I realized I have a Chris Thile album playing on the Goat Rodeo with Yo-Y0 Ma. To be honest, Goat Rodeo throws me a bit because of all its changes of moods within one song. I'll have to try tackling it a few more times.
As for AI creating art. AI cannot feel love or the fear of death. AI cannot know what it is to have a broken heart. Until that is possible, and more--the deepest human emotions, like the grief of a loved one dying--AI will not be able to produce original art. And I don't think that AI can create good art now. It writes terrible poetry. I've asked it. It can, however, analyze a poem. It's damned good at that. I fed through chatgbt a very complex poem I wrote for my booi, and it nailed the poem within three seconds. That was impressive.
At best AI will be derivative, perhaps blending the work of a number of artists. I believe that art is a product of human mortality. And AI is not mortal.
@mahgister
I read the intro, preface, and the first chapter of "The Ever-Present Origin." I'm not sure if I will read the rest now or later. I'm in the middle of "The Plumed Serpent" by D.H. Lawrence and I want to finish it. Although, Lawrence's constant repitition and old style of writing (I've been trained to use one modifier, whereas Lawrence can string together a long list of adjectives) might drive me away from the book.
I think "The Ever-Present Origin" might overlap with me on the research I've done for my book. Our Ven diagrams might have a lot of overlap. I'll have to look further.
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@stuartk,
I would not be suprised if AI art outsells human art sometime in the near future. But derivative art probably outsells "original" voices today. Let us remember that Vincent Van Gogh's brother Theo was an art dealer. Vincent was luckier than most because he had an outlet. He sold one painting in his lifetime and that was to a friend, or for payment for lodging, or something. Most great artists die penniless, and then Jeff Koons is a multi-millionaire. So, when we are talking about great art, what are we talking about?
Back to music. Composers like Schumann (both Robert and Clara), Rachmaninoff, and Essa Pekka Solonen have to perform for their money. Their artworks (compositions) don't make them enough money. I'm sure AI could do better than them when it comes to making money from compositions. AI could probably spit out fifty a day.
What about "good" art. In regards to AI (and probably humans, too) we need to talk about consciousness. Nobody knows what it is. Great thinkers like Stephan Hawkings fear that AI will become conscious. Think Hal in 2001. But nobody knows really what comprises consciousness. I have my theories, but I don't have math to prove it. Ironic. Back to @mahgister's bits.
@asvjerry's optimism is a tonic to some degree. From my perspective, as you know, we must hope for more feminine energy to be unleashed. We're dying under the dark gravity of male-think. Music and other arts by their nature are feminine whether written by men or women. Remember how poets used to invoke the Muse at the beginning of their works?
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Kenneth Rexroth on poetic meaning from chatgbt:
Rexroth believed that poetry should not be reduced to a paraphrasable meaning. In his words:
“The meaning of poetry is experience. The experience of the poem is the poem.”
— Rexroth, "Poetry and Experience"
To Rexroth, a poem isn't about something—it is something. It's a moment of awareness, a lived emotional or intellectual reality.
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@stuartk
I have been a big Tracy Nelson fan for a long time, ever since I heard her sing in the Firehouse in Berkeley. The whole band was good. They ranged from Ray Charles to Tracy doing "Mother Earth." (Posted below). I also saw her later in a country music bar in L.A. When I went up to her to tell her how great I thought she was, she brushed me off as if I were trying to pick her up. I wasn’t. I had a girlfriend at home who didn’t want to go to a sawdust country joint.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt0DZ372cQM
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Lucia Hwong used to be my best friend's girlfriend. She was absolutely beautiful (if you can find a picture of her in the 70's) and the daughter of the actress Lisa Lu, so she had to marry somebody with higher status than my raggedy friend who became a bass player. Her music, posted below, is as beautiful as she.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clapxdtetcc
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@stuartk, @mahgister
I think we might be talking about the difference between idea/concept and action, and I think that relates to music. I think many, if not all, musicians find their music in action first and then record their ideas. A plain example would be Mozart sitting at the piano picking out notes in a certain order, shaping time.
No doubt composers also compose in their heads, but I don't think they're seeing the notes written on the page. I think they are hearing the notes in their heads and perhaps then playing the notes on an instrument and then recording them. If that is the case, then the idea/ concept follows the action of hearing the notes and the timing.
Malcolm Gladwell wrote a very interesting article on art called "The Late Bloomers." In case anyone wants to read, here is the URL
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2008/10/20/late-bloomers-malcolm-gladwell
His basic theory is that artists either compose a work in their heads or they find it on the page, so to speak. Two examples he used was Picasso and Cezanne. Picasso, he said, was able to see his work in his head and then paint it. (Although I wonder, because I have seen Picasso studies for Guernica.) Cezanne found his painting on the canvas. Jazz musicians find their improvisations before they can think them. They have to bypass thinking, which I believe makes the best art.
I worked on a Mark Rothko-inspired painting for months. I could not find shapes on the page that came alive. It must have been at least five months before I woke up one morning and said to myself, "That's easy." I had the painting solved in days because I felt it rather than thinking about it.
On a more mundane level, I heard that Kobe Bryant once told Pau Gasol, "You're the best center in the world. Stop thinking about it and just shoot." Here action doesn't just precede thought, it bypasses thought.
I think the greatest musicians are able to bypass thought and pluck the notes out of the ether, Perhaps what they call God. As Milton said, "I did not write Paradise Lost. God wrote it through me."
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@stuartk
I think Keith Richards is talking about what I'm talking about, only he is much more poetic and communicative about the process. I guess that's because he goes through it. On the topic of AI and art. Do you think a computer can do what Richards is talking about?
@mapman
I will have to listen to that Moody Blues song.
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Too much music, not enough time!
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@mapman, @larsman
Sorry, but I don't know what prog rock is. I don't really know any of the names for rock. There are so many. I usually hear something, like it, and buy it, or stream it now. What are some of the more well-known prog (I'm assuming that means progressive) rock groups I might know?
To tell you what a ludite I am, the Eagles are on my turntable now. Most of my friends turn up their noses at me for liking the Eagles. But the Ear will have what it desires.
@mahgister
Slowly working my way through Orgin. It's a very interesting view of the world and philosophy. I think it might help in my endeavors.
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@larsman @mapman @toddalin
Okay, I'm into prog rock. I picked up a lot of those albums when they first came out. Loggins & Messina, Emerson, Lake, and Palmer, and others. I've always liked long cuts. Why doesn't Van Morrison fit into prog rock? Wouldn't his album "Astral Weeks" be one of the first? I guess a lot of the groups I like would fit into that category, although some would be later on, like Radiohead. Or does that move into another genre? BTW, I can play all this stuff while I write, as long as I've heard them before and know the words.
I hate when women are left out. How about Joni Mitchell's later stuff? Hejira and beyond into her jazz work? How about Cassandra Wilson's "Traveling Miles." Although I guess that's considered more jazz.
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Somebody mentioned above not listening to the Beatles. Over the years as my friends gave up their record collections, they gave them to me. I inherited some great classical music that enlarged my range of appreciation. I was also given a Mobil Fidelity box set of the Beatles remastered. I find the one record I listen to over and over is the first record in their White Album with "Back in the USSR." That gets me on so many levels.
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@stuartk
I like that cut. I'll stream them. I have a few Poco albums that I play a lot. To be quite honest, I'm not a fan of genres. That's one of the reasons I moved from the Jazz Aficianado group. They seemed to have a exacting conception of "jazz," and I just like what I like. You said you aren't a fan of Freddie Hubbard's "First Light" and "Red Clay," but I don't think you'd say they aren't jazz albums. They're just something that doesn't hit you. I just like what I like and no longer worry about it. I used to want to be cool. Now I'm too old to be cool, and I really don't care.
I know that Charlie Parker is considered a genius, but I hardly ever play him. My jazz ear was developed later in the sixties and seventies. Although I go to hear current groups and sometimes I like current jazz.
As a musician, I think you are more aware of the craftsmanship. I can appreciate it, but I don't listen to music to appreciate how good the players are. One exception might be classical music. I've listened to it long enough to develop more of an ear.
I picked up an album of Toscanini and Horowitz playing some piano concerto I knew well. I thought it was so awful, I had to look it up. Horowitz was married to Toscanini's daughter and there was tension between son-in-law and father-in-law. And did it show in the recording! And I am attuned enough in classical music to pick it up. A classical music DJ named Jim Svejda used to bad-mouth von Karajan so badly, but I just figured maybe he didn't like that von Karajan had played under Hitler. But over the years, I have come to find that I agree. Almost everything I have by von Karajan I don't like, with the exception of Mozart's Requiem. His schtick works with that particular piece of music.
In popular music, I dont really notice how good the musicians are. But I think I lean toward good musicianship instinctively.
But back to generes, I think they can limit people's taste. I had a male adult bias against Taylor Swift. Girl-teen music. But I have granddaughters and they listened to her, and I found I like some of her stuff. I listen to her "Red" album. I keep trying to punch my way out of the paper bags that age surrounds us with. Most people don't change their taste in music and art much past the age of thirty.
On the prog rock front, I have several Buddha Box CDs. Do they count? And I also have a number of Massive Attack albums, and how about The Cocteau Twins?
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@stuartk, @mahgister
Funny you should talk about my wariness of genres. I was just reading in the book that @mahgister recommended on the origins of thought that humanity is torn between the perspective of the individual and the collective. We are in danger of abandoning the perspective of the individual for the collective perspective. I think I am fighting for the individual perspective which would not favor the collective's definition of genres we can all relate to. The individual would (selfishly, perhaps) lean toward individual experience that would transcend words. This is all very complicated, and I hope I my summary did it justice.
I see it in my writing as the feminine which would favor individual experience versus the masculine which would lean toward the group experience. Except our group experience has been defined by men, and this takes it to another level of complication which is too long for me to go into now. Although, we do need to define species and genuses to have a discussion, I must admit.
This does have applications to music and art, but more later.
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@stuartk
"I listen for emotional engagement first and foremost. In this regard, someone with relatively little technique may be as "good" as a virtuoso... or even better. "
(I don't know how to lift something from what you said and have a buff-colored background.)
I remember when Bob Dylan said, "I sing better than Caruso."
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Van Morrison's "Astral Weeks" came out at the end of 1968. Nothing had ever been done like it. Not close. Rock n' roll changed with that album, and from what you're telling me, this is where prog rock started. I'm posting a short cut from the album so that you'll know what I'm talking about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cXIdFxbpIg
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