@mapman
All very good points. Perhaps I am just a Van Morrison fan who thinks that he does not get enough credit. Yes, I am. But that aside, the Beatles, whom I dearly loved during the sixties, went in a number of different directions. They had country songs, blues songs, and their own wonderful songs. A lot of it, I think, was satirical about the British society. They wanted to break out of the stuffy British morality. Seargent Pepper for me was a bit satirical on old British music. It wasn't ground-breaking for me musically, aside from the fact that I'd never heard a rock band satirize old British musical styles. Pink Floyd I associate with the seventies.
Van Morrison is perhaps the best voice of his generation. Of course, that's coming from a Van Morrison fan. When he sang TB Sheets, which came out in 67, nobody had ever thought like that before. He's a blues, jazz, R&B, soul, classical, spiritual singer. So, just chalk up what I'm saying to a Van Morrison fan who thinks he's not mentioned enough in serious rock conversations.
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@stuartk,
I will definitely listen to Richard Thompson. I've never heard of him.
I agree with you on balance. What I think my research has taught me is how incredibly imbalanced we are. Almost all, if not all, of our thinking is from males. If you studied philosophy, you studied males for the most part.
The Greeks and Jews, upon whom our thinking is based, were both misogynistic societies. And that misogyny is built into our culture, our language, and our male think.
To take it a step further, I believe that females were more inherintly powerful before the patriarchal takeover around 7 or 8 thousand years ago. Why? Well, we can see the results, that's for sure. In my writing, I want to make this plain to the reader without writing philosophy.
In music, I think it will take a while for women to bring a strong influence unless they are slapped back as they have always been. If we cannot incorporate a feminine view as voiced by females not male interpreters, I thinked were screwed.
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@audition__audio
I've been studying this subject for 15 years and I promise you, you don't have any idea about what you don't know. Your reaction, however, is helpful to me. I like to know what readership I'll be facing. And you're probably on the far extreme of defensiveness.
In regards to my overall thoughts being misogynistic, you are so, so wrong. When I begin to explain what I'm writing about to women, they just get it right away. Not a hint that they think I'm misogynistic. My grandaughter came over with a few of her girlfriends and they couldn't have been more interested. If it makes you feel any better, your on the opposite end of things when it comes to GenZ women.
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@stuartk, @larsman
I am listening to Richard Thompson now. He reminds me more of Gordon Lightfoot than Van Morrison. Kind of a north country sound with Celtic rhythms thrown in. I will listen to him with his wife Linda next. BTW, I watched the documentary on Gordon Lightfoot. It was 11:30 and I wanted something I could turn off in 15 minutes and go to bed. I stayed up past one to finish it. A fascinating story.
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On the assumption that most of you don't know Van Morrison's range, I'm posting a song off "Veldon Fleece," an album most of you have never heard of. For those who will indulge me, please listen to the band's setup. It's basically a jazz band. And Van Morrison's voice is another jazz instrument. He does things with his voice that are far beyond what I've ever heard with a rock singer. Maybe a jazz singer?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcoLgQ1HVYc
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@stuartk
I liked both tracks. He’s a great guitarist and she has a beautiful voice. Can you suggest an album for me to stream?
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@stuartk
I'll take a look at some of the ones I haven't heard of. I have Pentangle albums, and I know Sandy Denny and John Renbourn. You need to give me some time, though, to listen to all the music you've suggested. I'm still working my way through the Bluegrass list. It's fun.
Any reaction to the Van Morrison post? Did you hear anything special in his voice that you hadn't heard before? I think a lot of people peg him as the Brown Eyed Girl commercial singer.
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@audition__audio
Actually, I researched my way into this subject. I never meant to write about it, but one book led to another. I have researched back to the caves, and there is strong evidence that women were cave painters and shamans. A number of books suggest this.
Women were equal to men prior to about 7 or 8 thousand years ago. If you read the second Adam and Eve story in the Torah, that slaps women back pretty badly. Adam becomes Eve's master, so to speak. And the symbols of the tree and serpent that become tabboo were the symbols of the goddess culture that reigned for at least 30,000 years. How do we know? Archaeologists have found carvings that only portray women assumed to be goddesses. No male gods until at least 10,000 years ago.
In the caves they found special burials. 40,000 years ago a woman was buried in the back of a cave in a small boat with thousands of black beads that took thousands of man hours to carve. Women have been found in other special burials in the upper and middle Paleolithic. Not men. I think it's clear that women had inherint powers. I think they were more sensitive to their intuition, but whatever they were the shamans and special people.
So, obviously things changed, and that change was supported in writing, something men took control over.
So, I'm going back to the beginnings of humanity. And women have been slapped back many times. By religion. That's documented. It's not perceived slights that happen in our culture that I've spent 15 years studying. It's the history of humanity.
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@mahgister
I have a number of Schnabel albums, playing mostly Beethoven's latter piano sonatas, but also a Schubert sonata. I don't get him. Compared to the more modern pianists I like, he sounds a bit clumsy. I know I must be missing something. @frogman
Can you help me understand why Schnabel is considered great?
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@ghdprentic
You're right. Not the place for it. I could probably start a forum on it since so many people have opinions and reactions, but Audiogon is probably not the place for that either.
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I'm going to post a female singer who some of you might not be familiar with and others may be only familiar with her hits sung by her or others, like "Stone Cold Picnic." I have chosen a song that many of you might not have heard of. Try not to reject her off the bat. I went to see her live before she died (at 52, I think), and Madonna and Warren Beaty were in the row behind me. I think Madonna admired Laura Nyro as the real deal. And she was.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_FIK2oyiCs
I'm going to post one more. I heard about Laura Nyro in the early seventies. I was teaching high school students and a few of the girls came to me and said they'd been to a Laura Nyro concert and she blew them away. I have always listened to women when it came to music and art. It's opened up the other half of the world to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08oLOHVDEYc
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@stuartk
"Season of Lights" will probably go to the top of my long list. Although I did hear her live, but that was late in her life. And many years ago in my life. Madonna and Warren Beaty were together and they were there with Sandra Bernhard. Probably in the mid- late-eighties.
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@stuartk
It's not a proposition of one or the other. I still play CDs. But, especially belonging to this forum, I run up against so much music I don't own, that I need to use my streamer. I own a Moon 280D, and the Moon Mind interface is on my iPad and really, really easy to use. Most streamers have an easy interface. A very inexpensive introduction into streaming is to load Qubuz or Tidal or whatever on your computer then plug your computer into a D/A converter that will use standard interconnects to plug into your preamp. I'd buy a used D/A converter for this experiment. New they're as cheap as $100. Qobuz is $10 a month. So your investment can be a little over $100 to try it. Schiit has really inexpensive D/A converters. You can try it for a few months and see if you use it. If you continue on in this forum, I have no doubt you will.
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@stuartk
Mary Coughlan is considered a "jazz singer." (Not by me, but online.) Her best album is probably "Love for Sale." If you can find it, you might listen. She's damn good.
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@ghdprentice
Where would you start the forum and what would you call it? IMHO, modern attitudes toward women do not go deep enough. It's as if we're color blind trying to talk about color. Our entire thinking process, the development of our logic, science, and philosopy are all involved, again IMHO.
The book @mahgister recommended to me talks about societal perspectives. The lens through which we see things. He says that the reason Cortez was able to conquer Montezuma was because of their mindsets. The Aztecs thought as one and that was conducive to magic and spells. When they tried magic and spells on the Spaniards, who had learned about individual thought, they did not work. He also talks about how art developed perspective during the Renaissance. People did not see perspective prior to that. And so their conception of space was entirely different than ours. Today, we are beginning to see space and time as connected.
We have almost totally suppressed what I call the Feminine Creative Spirit, and it would take a long time to explain why I call it that. Partly it has to do with modern physics. Would you want to go that deeply? And if so, how would that be reflected in what you call the forum?
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@larsman
I stand corrected. I pulled it out of my memory without checking..
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@mahgister
I'm trying to set up a new computer, so I was only able to listen to a few minutes of Moravec (I think) playing Liszt. I have Lazar Berman playing Liszt's Annees De Pelerenage and it sounds very different. I'll try to listen over the weekend, but I must spend my mornings and early afternoons writing. And you can't give me any more books until I finish The Everpresent Origin. That is a slow read because I must think about every paragraph and understand how it relates to what I'm writing. Is he supporting my thesis or shooting holes in it?
I was very fascinating by the playing of Liszt, however. I'll see if I can stream what you posted.
If I listened to all the music on this thread, I'd never get anything else done. But I'll try to listen to as much as I can. I am familiar with Marian Anderson. I've been listening to Maria Callas, however, and trying to understand her voice. It is relatively small, but extremely vulnerable.
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@stuartk
I streamed Mary Coughlan singing Billie Holiday songs and I had to turn it off. I don't know what her problem was. I read that she drank a lot and has had a rough life.
But when I play other songs by her, she's got the feeling that jazz singers need. Her voice sounds like a jazz voice to me because she sounds like she sitting next to me and I can feel her heartbeat.
So, try one more and see if you don't think she has a jazz singer's voice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LEkUeIoWr0
BTW, still watching Ken Burns' Jazz series, I got to the part where the better musicians like Parker and Gillespie lose most of their audience playing be-bop. There is a real rift in which the be-bop musicians look down upon the old swing musicians who still draw crowds. The narrator said that the be-bop musicians (almost all black) thought of someone like Louis Armstrong as an Uncle Tom.
So, even among "jazz" musicians, some didn't think others were. Louis Armstrong is shown in the Hollywood Bowl singing a song that makes fun of Parker et al, saying be-bop closes clubs. I think that rift still exists, where some people think that successful jazz players like Diana Krall are not real jazz. I've seen Diana Krall live several times and watched the older jazz musicians backing her marvel at her piano playing. She can do some mean riffs. So can Patricia Barber. If you listen to her piano playing she's as interesting as any jazz pianist I've heard playing today.
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@mahgister
Thank you for taking it easy on me. I do get tired more easily than I used to.
I'm going to post a song just for you. Because much of what you post has an esoteric and intellectual component. I'm going to post a song that became very popular among the masses. Perhaps a seemingly simple song. As a poet, however, I think the poetry of its lyrics are masterful because they go straight to the heart and every word belongs. Nothing false. Emotionally, everything in this song is solid and true and deep, in that it's talking about people's most intimate feelings. Bonnie Raitt is the singer, and she absolutely kills this song. If you're prone to weeping, she could make you weep.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW9Cu6GYqxo
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@larsman
I'm watching the Jazz series for the second time and getting a lot more out of it. Ken Burns also did a series on country music I thoroughly enjoyed. And then there was the baseball series that kept me mesmerized.
I can't remember who I was talking to about Sibelius, but here is a poem I wrote about him a long time ago.
Sibelius
cold northern wind
whips in
stutters choppy water . lean
& ache of light
on wave's underbelly
vast spectacle of light
refracted
across the ocean's
face scooped by swift
hands fashioned
beyond description
but then again—
a waltz . soft
cheek meets warm
lonely cheek
gliding like smooth winds
over an icy sky
sad last waltz
tomorrow we die
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@mahgister
Here's a snippet from Kiri Te Kanawa singing Puccini's La Rondine. I love her voice in this opera. It is a pristine soprano.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8pg4rsj1_g
I listened to Liszt played by Sofronitsky today. Absolutely electrifying. I couldn't find Moravec playing Liszt, but I listened to a piece by Debussy and it was excellent.
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@stuartk
Here's another one for you to try on your journey into classical music. "Nights in the Garden of Spain" by perhaps the most famous Spanish composer, Manuel de Falla. Like many composers in the early 20th century he wrote music that was tied to his countries identity. Sibelius did so in Finland. Dvorak in whatever the Czech Republic was called then. Aaron Copland in America. Anyway, this is a lovely piece. I chose a selection with Martha Argerich, one of the greatest living pianists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYCiyNbDmRM
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@frogman
When I was studying poetry with Gary Snyder back in the mid-sixties, we had a discussion about why poets no longer wrote in rhyme and meter. He talked about artists tapping into the music of their society. He quoted an Arab saying, "When a music of a society dies, the society dies." The implication is that the music of the society is the foundation of the society. As an artist, one needs to understand their society's music and tap into it.
I read about Rachmaninoff being upset that he was writing Romantic music in the twentieth century alongside "modern" composers like Stravinsky. Rachmaninoff was a great composer, I think, and I have read music critics say that he did incorporate modern elements into his music. The same story with Sibelius who is one of my favorite composers, despite the fact that he wrote in the late Romantic style while Stravinsky and other modern composers were changing the structure of music.
Here is an absolutely beautiful piece of music by Sibelius
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5xJAOlXdUI
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@frogman @mahgister
Thank you both for your contributions to sopranos singing "Chi Il bel songo di Doretta" from Puccini's La Rondine. If anybody else wants to contribute, that's how you should look up your favorite soprano.
You're right @frogman about there being a more natural flow from a native Italian speaker. I liked Freni and Scotto's versions very much. Caballe's voice was a bit darker and deeper than I expect, probably from favoring Ta Kanawa all these years. What I love about her rendition is the lightness of her voice reminding me of Art Deco Tiffany lamps.
But here's a treat. A video of Callas singing "Chi Il bel songo di Doretta." with subtitles. You can close your eyes if you listen @mahgister, but I think in this case the lyrics are important. These are upper class people singing about the ecstasy of love and art. Probably couldn't get away with writing those lyrics today. In this video we also get to see the magical Callas:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=ooJwh5Hxcwg
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@stuartk
Argerich has a numerous solo piano albums. She is known for Chopin and Schumann, among others. Schumann is a hard composer to cozy up to. He died in a mental institution at 35 of manic depression, I think. His long piano works will move from absolutely beautiful melodies to dark, cacophonous passages. His wife, Clara, was a composer in her own right and an extremely popular concert pianist. She introduced a number of his works. You might look for Argerich playing "kinderszenen." It is about the phases of childhood, if I remember correctly. The early passages are lovely, then he descends into a kind of madness, but pulls out of it. It must be so hard for a pianist to express his soul as @mahgister says.
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@mahgister
I also love Mozart's Requiem. I've had a copy for years by Neville Mariner. It's pretty beat up so I bought an SACD by Herbert von Karajan. I don't mind him on this piece.
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@desktopguy
Kiri Ta Kanawa has a very light quick voice. I looked her up to see if she was a coloratura soprano, but she wasn't listed as such. She was also pretty, which as an opera goer (perhaps a chauvinist in this case?) is important. I went to one opera where the soprano was being chased by all these men, and the stage set had her walk out on a long plank that bent under her weight. I had to literally stop myself from gasping. Was that plank going to break? I once saw a Carmen with a soprano who looked like a Carmen and it really helped.
I will check out "The Creation," I've never gotten into oratorio. Bach preceded Haydn and you'd think that I could get into later music if I am into Bach. I bought Bach's St. Matthew Passion with Klemperer conducting, but I never have been able to listen to the entire three records. It's a type of singing I don't respond to.
I will listen to Kiri Ta Kanawa singing Strauss. I keep reading about how good his lieder is, but it's another form I've had trouble with. I've gotten into Mahler's lieder, partly because I've heard it performed live and some themes are also used in his symphonies. I'll look for a version on Qobuz so I can play it on my stereo.
@frogman
Sorry I mixed you up with @mahgister, thinking he was the one who couldn't get the Callas video. I hope you were able. It's marvelous to watch her sing. From what I've heard, watching her on stage was a big part of her appeal.
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@desktopguy
I was fortunate enough to hear Beethoven's "Missa Solemnis" live at Disney Hall. I think Dudamel was conducting, but I was really taken by it. I bought a CD with Bernstein conducting. I have no idea how it rates in the universe of conductors on that piece.
@stuartk
You can change the subject. I've noticed that a lot of people have dropped out of the conversation about classical music. I was thinking about changing the subject myself, although staying with women. I have recordings of many fine women who most people have probably not heard of.
@frogman
Recordings are absolutely important. Although, @stuartk kind of got me back into listening to my old CDs. Some well-recorded CDs sound better than badly recorded albums. But a well-recorded album is the best. I think my best recorded album is a jazz record by the Isao Suzuki Trio, called "Black Orpheus." They paid very careful attention to the recording. There's a drawing on the back of where the mikes were placed. It's a great record and very hard to find at a reasonable price.
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@frogman
You've got it. That works too. Maria Callas appears in perhaps 30 seconds. I must admit, she's wonderful to watch.
On another topic, I saw in the Jazz Aficianados thread people talking about Coltrane and Pharoah Sanders (maybe?), screaming and wailing with their horns. I have Pharoah with Leon Thomas on the album Karma playing "The Creator Has a Master Plan." In the middle Pharoah goes wild with his sax and for me it is a wonderful resolution and very spiritual. On the other hand, I have heard Pharoah and Coltrane playing long duets where they are "screaming" together. That feels like pain to me. And there is only so much of that pain I can take. So, I don't get through the track. Am I missing tsomething?
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@stuartk
I am posting Julian Bream playing three Villa Lobos preludes on guitar. The most beautiful guitat pieces I have ever heard. I was learning them when I quit my classical guitar lessons because of my divorce. These have as much duende (or whaterver the word is in Brazil) as anything I’ve ever heard. Villa Lobos was a street musician and his heart and soul was still in the streets of Brazil when he wrote classical music. Perhaps you’ll enjoy these, or at least watching Bream’s face as he plays them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JZ68_pxL9M
Here's a poem I wrote about Villa Lobos:
Villa Lobos
in shady corners
along walls
where mud meets mud
& old men in tatters
sleep cool
in the dusty air
a lover tiptoes
from the softness
of lips
to the cold
precision of strings
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@stuartk
I have Maria Pires playing Mozart’s sonatas. She is pristine in her delivery. I have others playing Mozart piano sonatas who bring out emotional depth that Pires avoids, I think. Her notes sparkle. For her, I think, it’s all about the touch and the timing. She leans more toward a Classical interpretation, where others lean toward the Romantic.
Argerich is bold and powerful, at least that’s the way I hear her. I know you don’t play orchestral music (although I think you can. I used to listen to it on a $100 Sears suitcase stereo that probably didn’t go below 80 Hz.) If you were to try a piano concerto, she does a mean Prokofieff’s 3rd piano concerto. It has the most amazing build I’ve ever heard. He mastered the art of the build, rising up to a crescendo then descending. Rising up again and descending. Until finally the crescendo comes and it is extremely satisfying.
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@frogman
Here is the search criteria I used to find the Callas performance:
maria callas puccini la rondine youtube video
I see three choices. I took the third choice where I saw a picture of Callas and the baritone (probaby famous) that was 5 minutes and 18 seconds. The baritone sets it up and then Callas comes in. I hope you can get the subtitles because they added a lot for me.I’ve seen it performed twice, but who can remember what was said in the beginning?
I would like to talk further about art in general. As a writer I have had to make choices about "inside" and "outside." I will ask people this: Who has read "Ulysses" or "Finnigan’s Wake" all the way through? More later when I have more time.
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@stuartk
Bream plays those pieces with more emotion than anyone else I’ve heard, including John Williams and Pepe Romero.
So, if it’s emotion you’re looking for in classical music, you might start with Wagner. Not his operas themselves, but the preludes and overtures. Parsifal, Tristan and Isolde, Tannhauser, and Lohengrin. One of my favorites is his Magic Fire Music.
I ran into Snyder a few times in the 70's and 80's when I went to hear him read. He was much admired for his Zen schtick, but as I look back on it, I think it was kind of ruse socially. Not that he didn't feel it in his poems. But I think he was a misogynist, like most men, and he used the Zen thing to excuse it. I went in to talk to him with my very pretty sister, and after that he was much more interested in taking her on motorcycle rides than talking about my poetry. Although, in his own sparse way, I thought he was an excellent teacher.
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@stuartk
In regards to poetry being upfront with its meaning, I think that is not poetry. It's an essay or something else. Poetry, like jazz, must light a spark between listener (& reader) who must give something of themselves. But it's not that hard. You just need to think a bit and then the spark ignites.
I'm going to repost the Villa Lobos poem and then comment upon it, and you should feel that spark as a musician.
illa Lobos
in shady corners
along walls
where mud meets mud
& old men in tatters
sleep cool
in the dusty air
a lover tiptoes
from the softness
of lips
to the cold
precision of strings
I begin with an everyday lazy scene of old men dressed in taters sleeping in the shade. That's where art comes from, the streets. I say it more clearly in my Coltrane poem.
Could there be a larger contrast between these old men and a lover tiptoeing from soft lips. This is where music comes from too. From flesh and passion. But, it must somehow be magically translated into an art form--in this case music--by the cold precision of strings. Isn't that what music is for you? A lot of sweat and callus on your fingers translating the passion of a lover and the secret the lover carries down the dusty street past the old men to the instrument that translates it for other humans.
I'm going to repost the Coltrane poem later. Because I was disappointed that nobody commented on it. It's not super-duper obvious, but it doesn't take a lot of thought for it to become apparent. If I tried to sum it up in a one-line theme, well then it wouldn't require the music and language of poetry to bring it alive.
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@stuartk
Can you name a few poet laureats or any famous poets who you don't think are difficult to understand? I need to know what you're talking about. Thanks.
And, do you think the poems I've posted are difficult to understand? Do you think Snyder is difficult to understand, because that's who I learned from.
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@toddalin
Sorry, which singer did you think was difficult to understand? I don't know which post you're referring to. Thanks.
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@toddalin
Okay, got you. I don't care if I understand all the words. I'm more into feeling the voice as part of the music. And I guess I'm into breathy female vocalists, if I think about it. Just a matter of taste.
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@stuartk
I'm sure she could be emotionally affecting on Chopin. On Mozart, however, I think, although I've never heard it said, that modern musicians are beginning to play him more emotionally. I have Fazil Say playing the sonatas and it's very different than Pires. But you don't have to be an aficianado to have your own taste. And your taste might change over the years. I listened to Mitsuko Uchida play Mozart's sonatas the other day and she did a lot of "interpretation." I liked it a lot. I like Pires, too. She makes Mozart sparkle. It's fun to listen to a few different artists and compare them. Mitsuko Uchida has specialized in Mozart, but that doesn't mean she's the last word, by any means. I really like some of Geza Anda's interpretations, and I think he plays Mozart more like Pires. What I consider to be a more "classical" style. I kind of like all of their interpretations. Like seeing Hamlet done by great actors.
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@mahgister
What you said about appreciating music is how I feel.
I did try Haydn's "Creation" Oaratorio. I just don't like Oratorios. I don't like the way the music becomes background for the singers to give Christian doctrine. I am listening to Bach's Mass in B Minor and it is all music all the time. I know the singers, who are singing in German so I can't understand, are singing about Jesus, but because the music goes forth unimpeded, they are just part of the music to me.
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@frogman
For me, music is spiritualism. Good music. Felt music. In Bach's Mass in B Minor he treats the music as spiritual. It comes from a place that is beyond Jesus and Dogma. A place that has existed in humanity since we became humanity. As one scholar of religion and art said, "With ancient humanity art and religion were the same thing. There was no distinction."
In doing research for the book I am writing, I have discovered a spiritual aspect of myself. I find that most religious dogma stands in the way of this spiritualism. Not to say that religious people can't get past it in music, art, writing, etc.
I am absolutely open to the fact that the lack of understanding is within me. And that Haydn is expressing the same spiritualism as Bach in the B Minor Mass.
A big part of the reason why I like modern classical and jazz is that the composers and musicians understand that music is spiritual in and of itself. We don't need to connect it to any dogma or sect. Certain musicians, in my mind, are connected to the universe's spiritual source. Others, be they Christians, Jews, Muslims, or whatever, do not bring that connection to that spiritual source for me. And I reiterate "for me." I have been brought up with my own biases just like everyone else.
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I am going to post a poem below about music in general and specifically about jazz. I think that my poetry might be more difficult to understand than I thought, so below the poem, I will take you through it and help you understand it.
What the poem describes really happened. I was driving home from work over a busy L.A. freeway.and an interview with John Coltrane came on the radio. I had never heard John Coltrane's speaking voice before. He moved me so much I had to pull off the freeway, park my car, and listen to him talk and then play "Green Dolphin Street." I felt as though I was listening to a god, but in retrospect I realize that I was listening to a man who had touched god, or at least come as close as the hand of Moses portrayed on the Sistine Chapel in the Vatican.
The poem was written much as jazz is played. No thoughts preceded the words. They simply came out in one flow without my thinking about or worrying about the meaning. Still it is one of my best poems and has been published several times. I think, like a jazz musician, I was able to develop a story and resolve it, from the inside out.
ON HEARING A RADIO INTERVIEW
WITH JOHN COLTRANE NOV. 13, 1985
stepping out of the past
on careful paws of a cat
hissing & scratching
thru car speakers
in the Sepulveda pass
a gospel intelligence
where family words
are polished in deep drums 4
he doesn't say it
but somehow I hear
that music wasn't doled
out over cloistered walls
it comes from the streets
where women's bodies
turn rags to style
I stop the car &
close my eyes
listening to Green Dolphin St.
& picture large black hands
like Icarus' wings
& think that grace lands anyplace
like snowflakes
promiscuously kissing faces
The first lines describe what @mahgister talked about earlier. Music is beyond an instrument or whatever produces it. It is something deep inside a person and it can be felt whether it is reproduced well or poorly. What could be more poorly produced than scratchy car speakers? And yet, something alive and feline stepped our of the speakers, a gospel (true) intelligence.This is how I heard Coltrane's persona.
stepping out of the past
on careful paws of a cat
hissing & scratching
thru car speakers
in the Sepulveda pass
a gospel intelligence
where family words
are polished in deep drums
In the next stanza I talk about how music was not doled out over "cloistered walls/ it comes from the streets/ where women's bodies turn rags to style." All music comes from the street, if we go back far enough. For so many years, European music was controlled by the church, and some masters were able to transcend the church's dogma. But certainly we can see jazz coming from the streets where women's bodies turn rags to style. Isn't that the truth? You get the right woman and put the right rags on her and you've got art, and music is art.
he doesn't say it
but somehow I hear
that music wasn't doled
out over cloistered walls
it comes from the streets
where women's bodies
turn rags to style
When I talk about Coltrane's hands like Icarus's wings, i didn't exactly know why I used that metaphor. If you'll remember, Icarus's father made him a pair of wings to fly but told him not to fly too close to the sun or the wings would melt. I watched more of Ken Burns' Jazz series last night, and repeated over and over again was how jazz musicians risk their lives on stage. They have no idea what they're doing. At any moment they could fall. After that, I knew my image of Icarus's wings was correct.
I stop the car &
close my eyes
listening to Green Dolphin St.
& picture large black hands
like Icarus' wings
I hate to sound hubristic, but these last lines I think are perhaps the best lines I've ever written. Again and again in the Jazz series, there were so many examples of great musicians that seemed so unlikely to be geniuses. it was as if they were touched by "snowflakes/ promiscuously kissing faces." Rude Miles Davis was kissed. Wasted Billie Holiday who would spend away her talent was kissed on the face by a promiscuous snowflake.
& think that grace lands anyplace
like snowflakes
promiscuously kissing faces
Hopefully this helped you understand this poem. If you want to take it further run the poem through chatgbt which is an amazing analyst of poems. It can't write one, but it can tell you about what is in a poem. Just type in "Tell me about this poem:"
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Don't want to get in a political dispute. I did, however, read a book on fascism a few years ago by Madeline Albright, and she defines it. I also read the "Origins of Totalitarianism" by Hannah Arendt and she does a good job of describing it in much more detail. The word has broadened out over the years, but it still can be defined. I won't try here, however.
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@mahgister, @frogman, @hilde45
I will give a more generous interpretation of @hilde45 comment about fascism. Being the stepson of an AFLCIO worker, I used to go to union picnics and sit at Pete Seager's feet as he sang Woody Guthrie's "This Land Is Your Land." From Seager and Guthrie, Bob Dylan carefully crafted political songs that weren't too pointed. Radiohead came out with an album called "Hail to the Thief." (Not one of their best, I must admit.) So, I think there is at least a lot of songs about injustice.
To carry this idea further a bit, when I studied poetry with Gary Snyder, he said there is no place in poetry for philosophy and politics. Although, he is known as a great environmental poet, but perhaps that is different. The way to do it, though, is to write in stories, allegories, and images. As the father of modern American Poetry said, Dr. William Carlos Williams from Newark New Jersey, "There are no ideas but in things."
As I have said, I think the heart of music is spiritual, and although I might not be in love with Christian doctrine in Oratorio, I love spirituals that come out of black churches. Secular person that I am, I could participate in that if I could sing. And of course from black churches we have many jazz musicians, and I can't forget Aretha Franklin and my favoirite Roberta Flack. And, hey, although long-winded, I may have changed the subject from classical music.
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