@audio-b-dog
I like that cut. I'll stream them. I have a few Poco albums that I play a lot. To be quite honest, I'm not a fan of genres. That's one of the reasons I moved from the Jazz Aficianado group. They seemed to have a exacting conception of "jazz," and I just like what I like. You said you aren't a fan of Freddie Hubbard's "First Light" and "Red Clay," but I don't think you'd say they aren't jazz albums. They're just something that doesn't hit you. I just like what I like and no longer worry about it. I used to want to be cool. Now I'm too old to be cool, and I really don't care.
Well, OK. Not all music is easily categorized into neat boxes but categories can be helpful. If I want to know where a certain artist falls, stylistically, and you say "Hard Bop" , I find that's useful. I compare it to music theory, which is not much use simply as a conceptual framework but as a means of communicating about musical structures between musicians it can be of significant practical value.
You do seem to have a visceral negative response to classifying music by genres.
Yes; Freddie Hubbard's CTI recordings are Jazz.
As a musician, I think you are more aware of the craftsmanship. I can appreciate it, but I don't listen to music to appreciate how good the players are.
I listen for emotional engagement first and foremost. In this regard, someone with relatively little technique may be as "good" as a virtuoso... or even better.
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@stuartk
I like that cut. I'll stream them. I have a few Poco albums that I play a lot. To be quite honest, I'm not a fan of genres. That's one of the reasons I moved from the Jazz Aficianado group. They seemed to have a exacting conception of "jazz," and I just like what I like. You said you aren't a fan of Freddie Hubbard's "First Light" and "Red Clay," but I don't think you'd say they aren't jazz albums. They're just something that doesn't hit you. I just like what I like and no longer worry about it. I used to want to be cool. Now I'm too old to be cool, and I really don't care.
I know that Charlie Parker is considered a genius, but I hardly ever play him. My jazz ear was developed later in the sixties and seventies. Although I go to hear current groups and sometimes I like current jazz.
As a musician, I think you are more aware of the craftsmanship. I can appreciate it, but I don't listen to music to appreciate how good the players are. One exception might be classical music. I've listened to it long enough to develop more of an ear.
I picked up an album of Toscanini and Horowitz playing some piano concerto I knew well. I thought it was so awful, I had to look it up. Horowitz was married to Toscanini's daughter and there was tension between son-in-law and father-in-law. And did it show in the recording! And I am attuned enough in classical music to pick it up. A classical music DJ named Jim Svejda used to bad-mouth von Karajan so badly, but I just figured maybe he didn't like that von Karajan had played under Hitler. But over the years, I have come to find that I agree. Almost everything I have by von Karajan I don't like, with the exception of Mozart's Requiem. His schtick works with that particular piece of music.
In popular music, I dont really notice how good the musicians are. But I think I lean toward good musicianship instinctively.
But back to generes, I think they can limit people's taste. I had a male adult bias against Taylor Swift. Girl-teen music. But I have granddaughters and they listened to her, and I found I like some of her stuff. I listen to her "Red" album. I keep trying to punch my way out of the paper bags that age surrounds us with. Most people don't change their taste in music and art much past the age of thirty.
On the prog rock front, I have several Buddha Box CDs. Do they count? And I also have a number of Massive Attack albums, and how about The Cocteau Twins?
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Nice.
Just purchased Mother Lode and will probably get Haken and Echolyn.
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@audio-b-dog
I don’t see how L & M qualifies as Prog.
Their music did span a range from very radio friendly Pop to something a bit more stylistically adventurous. The latter was displayed in longer tracks that alternated with the 3 minute hits. Like them or not, their musicianship was always excellent.
Here’s a good example of them at their (IMHO) best:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnI1-AiFrjU&list=OLAK5uy_m-iUndbrYwZmRJpQ-mBScNV53Vq_eHC1I
This track comes from what I consider their most musically ambitious album; "Mother Lode".
Given J. Messina’s roots in B. Springfield and Poco, I tend to regard him as coming out of Country Rock. I admire guitar players who can say a lot with just a few notes, and he certainly qualifies in this regard.
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Too much music, not enough time!
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Somebody mentioned above not listening to the Beatles. Over the years as my friends gave up their record collections, they gave them to me. I inherited some great classical music that enlarged my range of appreciation. I was also given a Mobil Fidelity box set of the Beatles remastered. I find the one record I listen to over and over is the first record in their White Album with "Back in the USSR." That gets me on so many levels.
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@toddalin
Bring back Progressive Rock! I don’t think there is anything like Gentle Giant anymore. Gotta be one of my all time favorites.
https://youtu.be/ifRnVEkqB2I
What do mean "bring BACK progressive rock"?
Progressive music has been going strong ever since the Swedish band, Änglagård released their debut album, Hybris in 1992! Complex, emotional, great musicianship.
They sort of opened the floodgates.
Deus ex Machina - Italian band with frightening levels of musicianship. Vocalist with 5 octave range. Borders on jazz-fusion at times.
After Crying - Hungarian chamber-prog band. Their first 6 releases are killer,
The Thinking Plague - US band deep in the avant-prog subgenre. Atonal, complex, and "difficult", but worth the effort.
Flower Kings - Swedish band doing classic sounding prog. Have many releases, although the latest have gotten a bit "been there, done that".
Haken - British band that straddles the line between prog-metal and classic prog. Complex and emotional, with world class musicianship. Their album "The Mountain" has more than a bit of similarities to Gentle Giant.
Echolyn - US band with some killer releases. "As the World" and "Suffocating the Bloom" are their best, IMO, and have some very Gentle Giant influenced, multi part vocal passages.
Zopp - British band steeped in the Canterbury style (National Health, Hatfield and the North, Caravan). Really good stuff.
Corima - US band in the Zeuhl style (Magma). Killer stuff, with amazing violin playing by Andrea Calderón.
Koenjihyakkei - Another Zeuhl band, this time from Japan. These guys are intense and can be relentless. Their latest are their best.
This is just a small sample of some killer prog from very recent times.
Here’s a list of top prog albums from just 2025.
ProgArchives
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@toddalin - well, that's a new one on me - I've never heard of Loggins & Messina mentioned in the same paragraph as 'prog rock'; they have good songs, but when did they change from that country-folk-ish pop? Are any mellotrons involved? 
Those are certainly great examples of 'Yacht Rock' in there; I'd throw in Boz Scaggs and Pablo Cruise as well. Are you a fan of them?
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@mahgister
Slowly working my way through Orgin. It's a very interesting view of the world and philosophy. I think it might help in my endeavors.
I am glad if it could be a useful book for you...
Anyway i will read your book if i am alive here ...
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@larsman @mapman @toddalin
Okay, I'm into prog rock. I picked up a lot of those albums when they first came out. Loggins & Messina, Emerson, Lake, and Palmer, and others. I've always liked long cuts. Why doesn't Van Morrison fit into prog rock? Wouldn't his album "Astral Weeks" be one of the first? I guess a lot of the groups I like would fit into that category, although some would be later on, like Radiohead. Or does that move into another genre? BTW, I can play all this stuff while I write, as long as I've heard them before and know the words.
I hate when women are left out. How about Joni Mitchell's later stuff? Hejira and beyond into her jazz work? How about Cassandra Wilson's "Traveling Miles." Although I guess that's considered more jazz.
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Gentle Giant, Emerson, Lake, and Palmer, Yes, Asia, Frank Zappa, Jethro Tull, Pink Floyd (sorta), Moody Blues, etc.
https://youtu.be/IaLqQo2r-3k
https://youtu.be/yUpREizsftU
When you get to Eagles, Loggins and Messina, Chris Cross, Michael McDonald, etc. you are getting more into Yacht Rock, though Loggins and Messina are certainly progressive and blur the line. I also enjoy Yacht Rock very much.
These three on SACD are hard to beat!
https://youtu.be/4as7FGQmYnQ?list=PLE7OYmYUxGQe7ftS05MLtCMnEFwo0Y5DA
https://youtu.be/lQ5cOyrXriM
https://youtu.be/sUd72fDmEss
The THING about progressive rock is that you have to "actively listen" to it to appreciate it. It is not for the casual listener or those engaged in other endevors at the time.
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@audio-b-dog - some examples of prog rock artists would include Yes, Genesis, King Crimson, Rush, Gentle Giant, Van Der Graaf Generator, and more contemporaneously, Steven Wilson and his projects and with Porcupine Tree. When he tours, he plays to sold-out theaters around the world, so there is still an audience for this. Dream Theater is another very popular contemporary prog band.
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Prog rock was/is very ambitious artistically.
Therefore of course few care about it anymore these days other than a handful of dedicated enthusiasts. Kinda like high end audio itself. The two go hand in hand IMHO.
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What is prog rock? This is a job for AI:
“
Progressive rock, often shortened to "prog rock" or simply "prog," is a subgenre of rock music that emerged primarily in the United Kingdom during the mid- to late-1960s [[1]](https://teachrock.org/lesson/the-roots-of-progressive-rock/)[[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock). It reached its peak popularity in the early to mid-1970s [[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock)[[3]](https://discoveringsongs.com/definitions/progressive-rock/).
Here's a breakdown of what defines prog rock:
* **Definition**: Prog rock is characterized by ambitious compositions, experimentation, concept-driven lyrics, and musical virtuosity [[4]](https://www.masterclass.com/articles/progressive-rock-guide). It sought to "progress" beyond typical rock and pop music structures, drawing inspiration from jazz and classical music [[5]](https://www.rogerdean.com/post/what-is-prog-rock)[[6]](https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock).
* **Musical Style**: Prog rock is diverse, blending various styles, approaches, and genres [[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock). It incorporates elements from classical, jazz, folk, and world music [[6]](https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock)[[7]](https://www.progarchives.com/Progressive-rock.asp).
* **Key Characteristics**:
* **Complex compositions**: Prog rock often features sophisticated harmonies, mixed time signatures, and multi-part songwriting [[4]](https://www.masterclass.com/articles/progressive-rock-guide). Songs deviate from the standard verse/chorus format and can resemble mini-symphonies [[5]](https://www.rogerdean.com/post/what-is-prog-rock).
* **Extended Length**: Songs tend to be longer than typical rock songs, often exceeding 4 minutes, with some reaching over 20 minutes [[8]](https://mclub.wordpress.com/music-styles/progressive-rock/characteristics-of-progressive-rock/)[[9]](https://www.reddit.com/r/progrockmusic/comments/pqrx0v/what_defines_progressive_rock/).
* **Virtuosity**: Prog rock emphasizes technical skill and instrumental prowess [[1]](https://teachrock.org/lesson/the-roots-of-progressive-rock/)[[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock).
* **Experimentation**: Prog rock incorporates unusual instruments and sounds, sometimes including spoken-word parts [[9]](https://www.reddit.com/r/progrockmusic/comments/pqrx0v/what_defines_progressive_rock/).
* **Concept Albums**: Many prog rock bands create concept albums that present unified statements, often telling epic stories or exploring overarching themes [[4]](https://www.masterclass.com/articles/progressive-rock-guide)[[7]](https://www.progarchives.com/Progressive-rock.asp).
* **Dynamic Range:** An extremely wide dynamic range, with very quiet and very loud passages often occurring in the same piece of music [[8]](https://mclub.wordpress.com/music-styles/progressive-rock/characteristics-of-progressive-rock/).
* **Lyrical Themes**: Lyrics often go beyond typical rock themes like love and relationships, exploring fantasy, mythology, science fiction, philosophy, surrealism, and mysticism [[5]](https://www.rogerdean.com/post/what-is-prog-rock).
* **Instrumentation**: While based around traditional rock instruments (guitar, bass, drums, and keyboard), prog rock bands often incorporate a broader range of instruments, including synthesizers, mellotrons, and even orchestral instruments [[4]](https://www.masterclass.com/articles/progressive-rock-guide).
* **Origins and Evolution**:
* Prog rock emerged from the British psychedelic scene in the late 1960s [[1]](https://teachrock.org/lesson/the-roots-of-progressive-rock/)[[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock).
* Early bands like The Moody Blues and Pink Floyd experimented with longer song forms and conceptual lyrics [[3]](https://discoveringsongs.com/definitions/progressive-rock/).
* The genre is rooted in a combination of rock and roll, psychedelic rock, jazz, folk, and classical music [[1]](https://teachrock.org/lesson/the-roots-of-progressive-rock/).
* **Associated Terms**: Progressive rock is sometimes used synonymously with "art rock", "classical rock", and "symphonic rock" [[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock).
---
Learn more:
1. [The Roots of Progressive Rock - TeachRock](https://teachrock.org/lesson/the-roots-of-progressive-rock/)
2. [Progressive rock - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock)
3. [What is Progressive Rock? (History, Bands, Songs, & Impact)](https://discoveringsongs.com/definitions/progressive-rock/)
4. [Progressive Rock Guide: A Brief History of Prog Rock - 2025 - MasterClass](https://www.masterclass.com/articles/progressive-rock-guide)
5. [What is Prog Rock? - Roger Dean](https://www.rogerdean.com/post/what-is-prog-rock)
6. [Progressive rock - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock)
7. [Progressive Rock - Definition, Genres & Articles - Prog Archives](https://www.progarchives.com/Progressive-rock.asp)
8. [Characteristics of progressive rock | mCLUB - inspired by music - WordPress.com](https://mclub.wordpress.com/music-styles/progressive-rock/characteristics-of-progressive-rock/)
9. [What defines progressive rock? : r/progrockmusic - Reddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/progrockmusic/comments/pqrx0v/what_defines_progressive_rock/)”
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@mapman, @larsman
Sorry, but I don't know what prog rock is. I don't really know any of the names for rock. There are so many. I usually hear something, like it, and buy it, or stream it now. What are some of the more well-known prog (I'm assuming that means progressive) rock groups I might know?
To tell you what a ludite I am, the Eagles are on my turntable now. Most of my friends turn up their noses at me for liking the Eagles. But the Ear will have what it desires.
@mahgister
Slowly working my way through Orgin. It's a very interesting view of the world and philosophy. I think it might help in my endeavors.
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@audio-b-dog more a musical concept piece from the days when prog rock on general was becoming a big thing than a song that tries to cover the history of music from primitive drumbeats to harpsichord to organ to eventually electric guitar and mellotron.
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In music, as you develop a theme or musical idea, there are many points at which directions must be decided, and at any time I was in the throes of debate with myself, harmonically or melodically, I would turn to Billy Strayhorn. We would talk, and then the whole world would come into focus. The steady hand of his good judgment pointed to the clear way that was fitting for us. He was not, as he was often referred to by many, my alter ego. Billy Strayhorn was my right arm, my left arm, all the eyes in the back of my head, my brainwaves in his head, and his in mine.
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@toddalin - Prog rock has never gone away; check out some of the great many prog rock YouTube channels for a start; plenty of it still going on all over the world. May not sound like Gentle Giant, but that's what Gentle Giant recordings are for. Hopefully 'prog' extends past that....
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@audio-b-dog
I don’t know enough about computers to answer that question but I’d like to believe a computer does not possess the "inner antenna " that allows humans to pick up on those "butterflies" Keith speaks of.
In order to manipulate aesthetic forms/media to trigger emotions, doesn’t one have to first possess the capacity for being so moved?
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@stuartk
I think Keith Richards is talking about what I'm talking about, only he is much more poetic and communicative about the process. I guess that's because he goes through it. On the topic of AI and art. Do you think a computer can do what Richards is talking about?
@mapman
I will have to listen to that Moody Blues song.
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@audio-b-dog
Here’s an AI summary of the creative process as approached by Keith Richards...
- Richards emphasizes that the best ideas often emerge when you’re not actively chasing them but are simply present in the moment, according to rolling stones data. He describes his process as catching "fleeting creative sparks like butterflies drifting through the air". Riffs, melodies, and lyrics reveal themselves naturally, often without conscious effort or planning, and this intuitive process is key to his creativity.
- Listening to the Instrument: Richards often talks about letting the instrument guide the creative process, believing that songs emerge from the guitar itself. He doesn’t believe in overthinking or forcing ideas but rather allows the music to flow through him.
- Openness to Inspiration: He sees himself as an antenna, picking up signals and ideas that are "out there," and simply receives them as they come, according to rolling stones data. This means being constantly aware of his surroundings and receptive to anything that might spark a musical or lyrical idea.
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This covers it.
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@stuartk, @mahgister
I think we might be talking about the difference between idea/concept and action, and I think that relates to music. I think many, if not all, musicians find their music in action first and then record their ideas. A plain example would be Mozart sitting at the piano picking out notes in a certain order, shaping time.
No doubt composers also compose in their heads, but I don't think they're seeing the notes written on the page. I think they are hearing the notes in their heads and perhaps then playing the notes on an instrument and then recording them. If that is the case, then the idea/ concept follows the action of hearing the notes and the timing.
Malcolm Gladwell wrote a very interesting article on art called "The Late Bloomers." In case anyone wants to read, here is the URL
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2008/10/20/late-bloomers-malcolm-gladwell
His basic theory is that artists either compose a work in their heads or they find it on the page, so to speak. Two examples he used was Picasso and Cezanne. Picasso, he said, was able to see his work in his head and then paint it. (Although I wonder, because I have seen Picasso studies for Guernica.) Cezanne found his painting on the canvas. Jazz musicians find their improvisations before they can think them. They have to bypass thinking, which I believe makes the best art.
I worked on a Mark Rothko-inspired painting for months. I could not find shapes on the page that came alive. It must have been at least five months before I woke up one morning and said to myself, "That's easy." I had the painting solved in days because I felt it rather than thinking about it.
On a more mundane level, I heard that Kobe Bryant once told Pau Gasol, "You're the best center in the world. Stop thinking about it and just shoot." Here action doesn't just precede thought, it bypasses thought.
I think the greatest musicians are able to bypass thought and pluck the notes out of the ether, Perhaps what they call God. As Milton said, "I did not write Paradise Lost. God wrote it through me."
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It is the same thing in natural science if we study Goethe...
It is the same in mathematics which need our act of interpretation at the end... As illustrated by Godel famous alternative : " (1) the human mind is not a Turing machine or
(2) there are certain unsolvable mathematical problems"
For Godel meaning is an embodied symbolic form and we are more than machine...
more :
«Furthermore, Godel consideres that there must be a nonmechanical plan to
machines, as he reportes "Such a state of affairs would show that there is something
nonmechanical in the sense that the overall plan for the historical development of
machines is not mechanical. If the general plan is mechanical, then the whole race can
be summarised in one machine." (Godel in conversation with Wang).»
https://scispace.com/pdf/godel-on-the-mathematician-s-mind-and-turing-machine-4n7mymlm38.pdf
@mahgister
Meaning is an embodied felt symbolic form
In art, this has certainly been my experience. I cannot comment on how this applies in math, science or other left-brain-dominant fields.
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@audio-b-dog
I also saw her later in a country music bar in L.A. When I went up to her to tell her how great I thought she was, she brushed me off as if I were trying to pick her up. I wasn’t.
That’s too bad. . . for both of you. I guess it’s indicative of what she had to deal with as a female performer and the less-than-ideal strategies she developed in an attempt to protect herself.
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Kenneth Rexroth on poetic meaning from chatgbt:
Rexroth believed that poetry should not be reduced to a paraphrasable meaning. In his words:
“The meaning of poetry is experience. The experience of the poem is the poem.”
— Rexroth, "Poetry and Experience"
To Rexroth, a poem isn't about something—it is something. It's a moment of awareness, a lived emotional or intellectual reality.
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@mahgister
Meaning is an embodied felt symbolic form
In art, this has certainly been my experience. I cannot comment on how this applies in math, science or other left-brain-dominant fields.
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@stuartk
I have been a big Tracy Nelson fan for a long time, ever since I heard her sing in the Firehouse in Berkeley. The whole band was good. They ranged from Ray Charles to Tracy doing "Mother Earth." (Posted below). I also saw her later in a country music bar in L.A. When I went up to her to tell her how great I thought she was, she brushed me off as if I were trying to pick her up. I wasn’t. I had a girlfriend at home who didn’t want to go to a sawdust country joint.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt0DZ372cQM
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Lucia Hwong used to be my best friend's girlfriend. She was absolutely beautiful (if you can find a picture of her in the 70's) and the daughter of the actress Lisa Lu, so she had to marry somebody with higher status than my raggedy friend who became a bass player. Her music, posted below, is as beautiful as she.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clapxdtetcc
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@stuartk,
I would not be suprised if AI art outsells human art sometime in the near future. But derivative art probably outsells "original" voices today. Let us remember that Vincent Van Gogh's brother Theo was an art dealer. Vincent was luckier than most because he had an outlet. He sold one painting in his lifetime and that was to a friend, or for payment for lodging, or something. Most great artists die penniless, and then Jeff Koons is a multi-millionaire. So, when we are talking about great art, what are we talking about?
Back to music. Composers like Schumann (both Robert and Clara), Rachmaninoff, and Essa Pekka Solonen have to perform for their money. Their artworks (compositions) don't make them enough money. I'm sure AI could do better than them when it comes to making money from compositions. AI could probably spit out fifty a day.
What about "good" art. In regards to AI (and probably humans, too) we need to talk about consciousness. Nobody knows what it is. Great thinkers like Stephan Hawkings fear that AI will become conscious. Think Hal in 2001. But nobody knows really what comprises consciousness. I have my theories, but I don't have math to prove it. Ironic. Back to @mahgister's bits.
@asvjerry's optimism is a tonic to some degree. From my perspective, as you know, we must hope for more feminine energy to be unleashed. We're dying under the dark gravity of male-think. Music and other arts by their nature are feminine whether written by men or women. Remember how poets used to invoke the Muse at the beginning of their works?
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Information is not meaning...
Meaning is inaccessible using only information or bits...
Meaning is an embodied felt symbolic form not a set of bits....
IT is BITs from the tip of Babel PIT.
But heart beats beat bits.
Data makes us beta.
I think as audio-b-dog...
As for AI creating art. AI cannot feel love or the fear of death. AI cannot know what it is to have a broken heart.
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@audio-b-dog
Only time will tell, re: AI's art-making potential.
There is, needless to say, plenty of derivative art currently being made by humans.
;o)
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if there is overlap between Gebser and you i want to read your book...
I will wait...
@mahgister
I read the intro, preface, and the first chapter of "The Ever-Present Origin." I'm not sure if I will read the rest now or later. I'm in the middle of "The Plumed Serpent" by D.H. Lawrence and I want to finish it. Although, Lawrence's constant repitition and old style of writing (I've been trained to use one modifier, whereas Lawrence can string together a long list of adjectives) might drive me away from the book.
I think "The Ever-Present Origin" might overlap with me on the research I've done for my book. Our Ven diagrams might have a lot of overlap. I'll have to look further.
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@stuartk ,
I like the youtube band you just sent me. Yes, they have rough edges, and I love her Irish accent, if that's what it is. One of the people you sent me to listen to, and now I've forgotten the name, seemed to be playing the same songs as David Grisman only sweetly on a guitar. It sounded like a classically-trained guitarist.
I realized I have a Chris Thile album playing on the Goat Rodeo with Yo-Y0 Ma. To be honest, Goat Rodeo throws me a bit because of all its changes of moods within one song. I'll have to try tackling it a few more times.
As for AI creating art. AI cannot feel love or the fear of death. AI cannot know what it is to have a broken heart. Until that is possible, and more--the deepest human emotions, like the grief of a loved one dying--AI will not be able to produce original art. And I don't think that AI can create good art now. It writes terrible poetry. I've asked it. It can, however, analyze a poem. It's damned good at that. I fed through chatgbt a very complex poem I wrote for my booi, and it nailed the poem within three seconds. That was impressive.
At best AI will be derivative, perhaps blending the work of a number of artists. I believe that art is a product of human mortality. And AI is not mortal.
@mahgister
I read the intro, preface, and the first chapter of "The Ever-Present Origin." I'm not sure if I will read the rest now or later. I'm in the middle of "The Plumed Serpent" by D.H. Lawrence and I want to finish it. Although, Lawrence's constant repitition and old style of writing (I've been trained to use one modifier, whereas Lawrence can string together a long list of adjectives) might drive me away from the book.
I think "The Ever-Present Origin" might overlap with me on the research I've done for my book. Our Ven diagrams might have a lot of overlap. I'll have to look further.
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Bring back Progressive Rock! I don’t think there is anything like Gentle Giant anymore. Gotta be one of my all time favorites.
https://youtu.be/ifRnVEkqB2I
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@audio-b-dog
RE: V. Morrison and "TB SHeets", @grannyring nailed it.
You heard Mother Earth with Tracy Nelson on vocals? Great singer!
Glad you are finding some enjoyable things on the list I sent.
I don’t hear what I would call "rough edges" when it comes to Strength in Numbers, though. They are all virtuosos and technically faultless. Maybe we define "rough" differently. It’s curious that you didn’t like Winifred Horan. Here’s a taste of her regular band, Solas:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGcruwhK_es
RE: "The world has been flooded with dross in all the fields of art throughout history", that's true enough but we've never had a forger as capable as AI, before. I don't worry about it creating more bad art -- I worry about it getting to the point of being able to synthesize so much about good art that it can "create" good art that cannot be differentiated from good human-created art. This is new. And I use the term "good" fully aware that it's a gross oversimplification. Perhaps "convincing' would be a better term, in this case.
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@mahgister, I, too, was an alter boy and choir boy. My love of polyphony and liturgical music began with music in the church. I’ve been to Italy 3X and saw some stupendous churches and cathedrals there, as well as in the U.S. I have zero religiosity: all I want from religion are the buildings and the music. As for J.S. Bach, I could live on a diet of nothing but and die happy. I listen to his music ~12 hrs/day, every day.
I listen Bach almost everyday since my youth...
I never see Europe... The one day i was supposed to quit and travel i use the 1000 bucks to pay for my books order 50 years ago... A big order... I never quitted... But i dont regret the books order... Nothing beat a deep book which will change you life for the better as a travel can do in some case (Not all case my friend came back very ill )
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"Ah, Happy Brave New World..."
Sounds like another version of the glass filled to mid-level......
Will Human music survive....?
Of course it will. Talent will remain to introduce yet new variances and 'hooks' that tip that domino in your cortex and light up the rest of the cranium.
To believe otherwise, this soon, unleashes what you fear.
AI need's to learn and understand what Hope is...Why it's important that it never must be squelched in it's span with us.
Music is part and parcel to that Hope....
Deny? Die anyway....
Not so much into where 'serious music' has fronzen into amber...yes, wonderful.
I happen to be in This Era, error it may be.......looking at that jump off the edge.... ;)
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@desktopguy @mahgister
I am a musical dunce when it comes to playing. My one claim to fame, however, is that I was chosen for senior chorus in 6th grade. I was a soprano (then). We sang "Inch Worm, Inch Worm, measuring the marigolds."
I was raised in a secular household. We never went to services. I think that is why I was not biased against sacred music. I think Bach's Mass in B Minor comes straight from the heavens. Perhaps the best piece of music ever written. I had a chance to see it live in Disney Hall. We all sat down low because there were not enough people to fill the hall. Strange that so few people would want to hear such a beautiful piece of music.
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@audio-b-dog, I know all about Oliver Sachs. Actually have a copy of Musicophelia; this is a good reminder to read it. I’ve also heard his lectures. I first became acqainted with him via the neurology connection: he was a well-known researcher in migraine medicine (I’ve had a wicked/continual case of that for the past 15 years). His writing on that topic are fascinating, indeed.
The brain is a funny beast. Once it forms pleasure pathways (with music, sex, drugs, food--literally anything that can light up the pleasure center and pump those endorphins), it’s very hard to make it let go. And in the case of music, I don’t ever want that jones to stop.
Your musical background is pretty interesting. Can’t believe you saw Richie Valens! No doubt we share some "age appropriate" music tastes. I left out a lot in my post (such things as Jimmy Hendrix, Jeff Beck, countless jazz & classical performances).
@mahgister, I, too, was an alter boy and choir boy. My love of polyphony and liturgical music began with music in the church. I’ve been to Italy 3X and saw some stupendous churches and cathedrals there, as well as in the U.S. I have zero religiosity: all I want from religion are the buildings and the music. As for J.S. Bach, I could live on a diet of nothing but and die happy. I listen to his music ~12 hrs/day, every day.
@larsman, that’s a good plan. If a thing is worth doing, it’s worth over-doing!
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@desktopguy + 1 - I'll go with the whole package - I'm a mindless, technicolor drone rat! You're probably right about the gray, though....
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There is no age appropriate music...
There is only exposure,education, ears training...
When a child i was going to Catholic masses and Vespers and ceremonies, I even worked as a boy altar...
My mother and father were singing "Ave Maria Stella" as i was a baby, and i remind it clearly and i was 2 years old or 3 max, then i listened to choral music at the Radio before noon( very old french and english folk song or popular chorus songs).
Then when all my friend listened Cream and Beatles and Hendrix, i was listening ,Monteverdi, Gesualdo, Josquin Des Prez, Jakob Obrecht, Purcell Anthems, and Bach etc...
Training ears biases when a baby will determine your music journey...
It was so strong conditioning, i discovered Jazz only at 35 years old...I decided it was not an inferior music style no more because i discovered music is done by musicians not written for singing by great past Masters...
Already in my twenties, i listen Indian sitar... It becomes after my 35 years a passion for Indian and Persian music especially .,..
Today i listen to many world musical cultures...
But the Choral music stay my all time favorite...
I like Armenian and Persian songs ...
Popular music has no real appeal to me save few poets exceptions (Dylan Cohen Baez, Ferré, partly because i was a "hippie" against war in the 70 etc )
Alas! if i can wrote a book about Bruckner symphonies describing them in metaphors i had no talent for music at all ...I was discarded from the Choral of boys because of my unability to sing correctly...
I "see" music with my eyes and do not hear it a way a musician hear it...
In my next life i want to play piano as Ervin Nyiregyházi playing Liszt... Or as Sofronitsky playing my god Scriabin...
if not i did not come back here ...
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@desktopguy
I don't know if you've ever read Oliver Sachs. He was a British neurologist and writer who wrote about synesthesia and music. His book Musicophelia was about how music affects the mind. There was also a documentary about the book. A fascinating study.
I, too, was interested in music at a young age, but what I found interesting was more age appropriate. Elvis Presley in 5th grade. I also went to Pacoima Jr. High, the school Ritchie Valens went to. He came to our auditorium to give a free concert for the students. I was mesmerized that anybody could be so good. I had never heard a professional before.
I liked the top ten when I was in elementary school and middle school. I went to my next door neighbor's to hear their new console (I don't know if it was stereo or not) and they played popular orchestral music. I said, "You listen to music without words!" At that age, I had no idea how people could enjoy music without somebody singing.
Our musical enjoyment changes over our lifetime, as does what we listen to music on. When I only had $500 to spend on an entire stereo, I believed it was the best stereo in the world. Same when I upgraded it with $500 speakers. I always believe I am listening to music produced as well as it can be. And for my ears, at that time in my life, it is true.
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@polkalover
I don't think that AI will be the end of good music or good art in general. The world has been flooded with dross in all the fields of art throughout history. As a writer working on a book for many years, I have to confront this fear almost daily. But most people have read formulaic beach reads from the beginning of mass-market publishing. You don't need AI to produce soulless music. It has been produced all my life. Even people under the most severe totalitarian regimes (which I think is more dangerous to truthful art) have written truths that threaten the overwhelming power of the state. If you have read the book or seen the movie "Farenhite 451," that is a great analogy about how small pockets of people seeking truth can keep the flame alive. Dystopian despair crushes the soul worse than anything else.
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mindless technicolor rat?
besides, I have it on good authority the future will be a dingy, medium grey light.
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Since I disagree, I can't decide if I'm a mindless drone or a technicolor rat.
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