Law Of Diminishing Returns?

For someone who's never had anything but a clock radio or boom box, an Acoustimass 5 system would probably sound sublime. For someone who is well off, a $30,000 amp may be the starting point. In other words, there is no magic dollar level where the sound improves in a largely noticeable manner. 

Certainly buy runout gear, examples Focal Clear phones $2200, bought for $800, Audio Physic Speakers $5700 bought for $2900, Cayin tube amp $3600 bought for $1900 there are plenty out there. I rarely pay more than 60% for anything. 

Don’t ever buy a new car, its value drops 30% the second you drive it off the lot! Same thing with hifi, but if you want new and exciting with a full warranty, you’ll buy new. 

"is a wagyu ribeye 4x better than a choice ribeye"?

Yes.

Audio equipment?...To me...not so much after you reach a certain level...

@nonoise post rings so true. I do not have the resources to get to the point of DR, so when I make an investment, it usually is a net, net gain for me. Meaning it is well thought out and researched.

Whenever I see the use of the phrase, the law of diminishing returns, it’s usually in a review and meant to assuage the reader that he need not buy the item under review as it’s really not much better than what he already has or is willing to spend.

Apparently, it doesn’t work.

@ghdprentice +1 An entirely personal thing. The original post is a perfect case in point. No audible difference between the two mentioned systems?!?! No way! Of course there is, and that difference may be very significant to someone else. No disrespect intended, but we are not always as discerning as we think we are. 

I'll never be pulled into the diminished returns tango. Refurbished classic vintage  gear gets me close. There is no need to spend a fortune to get great music.. 

+1  newbee and the support provided by jjss49.. 

It is a moving point, based on discretionary income.

@newbee +1

@secretguy +1

Whenever I see the use of the phrase, the law of diminishing returns, it's usually in a review and meant to assuage the reader that he need not buy the item under review as it's really not much  better than what he already has or is willing to spend.

Apparently, it doesn't work.

All the best,
Nonoise

The law of diminishing returns is absolutely real. But for many audiophiles there is a kind of reverse curve. We become more and mor perceptive of seemingly small changes. And if that's true of you then the small changes become more and more significant and if you know they are there you miss them. So in a way small changes become more and more important and therefore valuable dollar wise.

There is a guy on here that likes tweaks and said he spent maybe 500 bucks on entire system and it sounds great, at least to him. I don't remember his handle....anyhow, it goes to show it is all relative...

If you hav3 the $$ there are audio systems that are substantially better say between. $50k and a $100 k. Rule of thumb on average ,  having owned a Audio store I know very well what’s under the hood and quality.

25% of a product including packaging is what goes into most products between R&D  packaging and markup, this is where $$ comes into play ,the parts quality is a substantial magnitude of better quality and that’s where the sonics become much more refined. Detailed and realism , knowing and matching system electronics for system synergies is equally important ,that’s why you see likeDCS  digital creating statement $100 k digital setups if you can afford it go for it .I personally used to own $100 k + retail systems getting 50%+ off why not , I am now semi retired and I feel for $50k minus discounts is plenty good enough. As a Audiophile you are never done purchasing .

"The law of diminishing returns was practically CREATED for the audio folks."

Plus 1 for secretguy.  In 2007 I purchased the Focal 1027 Electra speakers with a berrilyium (sp?) tweeter for $5,000.  They served me well including my new home with hardwood floors.  Thinking  that the technology must have improved tremendously since then, I purchased the Focal Sopra 2's in 2022 for $19K  after I demoed them in the store. I thought the Kanta's were a lateral move so I stepped up to the Sopra's which struck me as more open. When I got them home, they sounded perceptively better than the Electras but only slightly so. Was the slight improvement worth 19K in 2022 vs the Electras in 2000 for 5K?  Nice to have but an expensive Lesson One

In the 1990's I purchased Tannoy standmount speakers - the D-100's.  They sounded damn good. I just purchased on Audiogon a used pair of Dynaudio Special Forty speakers for $2k..  I A-B'd them with the Tannoys.  While the Dunaudio speakers sound very good, the old Tannoys sounded more "open" to my ears. Lesson Two learned.  One almost needs a 12-step program  to break this cycle.

It is entirely individual dependent. By definition an audiophile has an incredibly steep reward curve. Like I had a friend that was a marathon runner… endorphins would flood his system after running about five minutes… me, a tiny squirt after four hours of heavy exercise long after I wanted to collapse and die. An audiophile gets tremendous happiness from listening to well reproduced music.

It also depends on your income level. An audiophile will always choose a very high percentage of disposable income to audio… typically levels most people consider crazy. “Audio Dollars” (as my partner calls it)… $1,000 is equivalent to $10 normal dollars. I balk at spending on Charmin TP… but. $2,000 interconnect… a screaming deal… no hesitation.

To an audiophile the value of experiencing exquisite sound quality is of incredible value.

Old audiophiles like myself and many here have developed listening skill far beyond your average listener. When we listen, we hear so much more than just punch and details. This comes with experience and passion over long periods of time.

My opinion - you need to spend $8K-$10K retail (maybe half that with smart used purchases) to get a decent sounding system.

Twice that can achieve an excellent sounding system in a decent room, but still with some compromises. 

I wouldn't go so far as to say this is 80% of the best available though. A high end system ($50K+ IMO) that is set up well in a good (well treated) room can sound very compelling and systems > $200K even more so. 

This all assumes spending the money wisely. It's easy to spend a lot of money and get mediocre sound.

There are obviously diminishing returns though. The step from $10K to $20K is more significant than the step from $20K to $40K, which again is more (probably much more) significant than the step to $80K. 

For many, this whole audio thing is like living Zeno's paradox

@newbee I bet not many are honest enough to admit there's no difference in gear when there is none.

@mulveling  Some beautiful equipment  has cycled through your virtual system. Interesting the Tannoy has remained while so much else has changed.  Strong endorsement for those speakers.

For me, diminishing returns has as much to do with my check book balance as anything.

absolutely... well said, and should never be forgotten

all things hi end hifi are luxuries in life... take care of all the basics and essentials first -- family, kids, home, education, personal and professional development, security, meet all obligations for those whom depend on us... happiness and success in life is about careful prioritization

For me, diminishing returns has as much to do with my check book balance as anything. If there is a surplus in the checkbook it easy for me to fanaticize about the potential aural rewards of getting  a more expensive piece of equipment. If, after acquisition, I can't hear the increase/improvement of sound quality and I have correctly chosen the component,  I still have the bragging rights of ownership and can fib about the improvement it brought. Impress the hell out of the poor folks! :-)

I can take a swag at it. A good $12,000 loudspeaker system, a good integrated and decent music player will get you pretty far down the road. Perfect placement, a good room, and picking the right gear, is a darn good start. So just under 20K. 

+1 @jjss49 

Perhaps, OP, your rich buddy got rich because he mainly likes spending money, not seeking quality.

The "value" curve may not be linear, but neither is our perception of pleasure. Many try to approach 2ch system building like they’re choosing car insurance. Not me. I get too excited by the nuances of different gear, and what unique sonic perspectives they provide, compounded by their complex interactions with other components.

A few of my most expensive purchases have busted the "pleasure" curve, thereby rendering arbitrary percentages and diminishing returns meaningless. They also tend to stick around a lot longer here than most budget "giant killer" components.

acerbic, smart ass comments aside, i would remind everyone that value and ’returns’ is seen and held in the eye of the beholder

diminishing returns does not mean lack of positive returns, that last few percent improvement may well be worth it for those who choose to pay for it - this applies for many many fine things in life, not just hifi

is a wagyu ribeye 4x better than a choice ribeye, it is 4x the cost, and both fill your tummy, right? ... well if you can afford it, want and appreciate the difference in the pleasure of enjoying the wagyu, then it is well worth it

is an opus one red 10x better than your supermarket yellow tail cab?

is a first class transcontinental flight worth 20x the cost of an economy seat on the same plane?

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to answer the op’s query about where a sweet spot might be in putting together a very good sounding system in a typical listening room, i would say US$5-10 grand if one purchased used gear smartly

The law of diminishing returns was practically CREATED for the audio folks.