LAIV Harmony

Brightness and silibance have me scratching my head...Wondering if removing the "Bridge" between the boards cause some type of instability within the circuit?

Wig

@jackd Thanks for sharing your impressions.

I too am considering the LAiV Harmony, and the closest contenders in my mind are the Denafrips Pontus II 15th or Venus II 12th-1. I mention the Pontus 15th because this new version appears to use the same resistor ladder as the Venus, and the main difference between the two units seems to be the clock. Does anyone have any thoughts regarding how either one of these would compare to the Harmony? Only small minus on the Harmony is that it converts DSD to PCM vs the Denafrips units that handle DSD natively. But if the sound quality of the Harmony is significantly better than the Pontus or Venus, the DSD issue would be acceptable,

Regarding Hans’ review... The only time my Harmony sounded remotely close is during testing when I plugged it into the high current outlets of my Furman IT-Reference 20i. Going back to the balanced outlets marked a huge improvement for me within my system (so much so I just ordered an Audioquest Niagara 7000). I’ve mentioned this previously, but my experience is the Harmony is extremely sensitive to system issues and will happily expose them, so my best guess is there’s something in Hans’ chain that needs tweaking.

There have been some reports on Head-Fi in regards to testing NOS/OS and the consensus is there’s some high frequency roll-off with NOS so the "sibilance" claims are very puzzling and I’d again point to one of the many upstream device Hans has piping music into the Harmony. Some users have reported excellent results with NOS and HQPlayer, which I’m tempted to try, but personally, Harmony in OS has been very impressive.

I’ve had my Harmony DAC for about 2 weeks and have about 300 hours on it.  I also own a Pontus II 12TH-1 and borrowed a Cyan 2 from a friend to compare all 3 this weekend.  I listened to all 3 in NOS mode.  I spent hours listening to songs that I have heard many many times before.   The Harmony DAC has the most natural sound of all 3.  I listen to a lot of acoustic instruments and vocals.  The instruments like the piano sounds better and closer to reality with the Harmony DAC.  This is the biggest difference I could hear compared to the other 2.  While I have great respect for Hans B and enjoy his videos, I disagree with his comments on the Harmony.  

I have the Harmony DAC and the PS Audio DirectStream DAC Mk.1. 

I bought the DSD before the latest DSD Mk.2 came out. After reading reviews of both and also reviews of the DSD Mk.1 after it was modded compared to the newer Mk.2, I had Rick mod mine and added the LPS add on.

With all the discussions of how the Harmony compares to other DACs, a refurbished DSD Mk.1 can be purchased for around $2000 with 1 year warranty.

The Laiv Harmony is $2700 with a 3 year warranty.

The DSD is FPGA based and the Harmony is a R2R. Both are great sounding.

Going up in price, the T+A DAC200 ($7000) and the Mola Mola Tambaqui ($13000) are better sounding, more analytical, however some report they are not as natural sounding. Opinions are like rectums. Everyone has one.

The soundstage of the DSD is larger than the Harmony DAC.

I am keeping both, and I listen to both. They both sound natural.

My system:

Moon by Simaudio 700i integrated amp
Vandersteen Treo CT speakers
Custom built Roon Server
PS Audio AirLens streamer
PS Audio DirectStream DAC mk.1, modded, w/APS upgrades and LPS
Nordost power and interconnect cables

Fidelium speaker cables
 

Jay just made some comments on his YouTube channel in response to a question although not a full review. He says that the sound signature sits in between Denafrips (leaner and more detailed) and Holo Audio (warmer and less detailed) though he doesn’t think that the Harmony DAC competes with those companies’ flagships. He also added that the i2s on the Harmony is very good because it is configurable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc_v6xwLrnc

I happen to really enjoy mine.  Perhaps my ears are defective ;) 

Perhaps I’m missing something, here, but I don’t really see the point of debating whether a particular reviewer’s comments on a particular DAC are "accurate" or "reliable". In the end, what matters is how it sounds to you in your system in your room according to your tastes.

While it can be reassuring to read/watch a favorable review from a reviewer one likes, there is still no guarantee you will like it. In the end, there is only one way to find out. 

BTW, LAIV is not the only company that offers trial/return policies on their DACS!

@stuartk 

I absolutely find value in discussing a reviewer’s comments.  I have neither the time nor resources to procure multiple samples of a component and audition them in my systems.  I rely heavily on input posted here as well as online reviews.  If input from a source is not consistent with others, I think it makes sense to discuss it here so that we can make sound purchasing decisions.

I don’t believe anyone here suggested that only LAIV has a trial policy.

@audiostick

I wish you luck in your DAC quest.

Ok, after watching and reading every review, going through this thread and all 72 pages on Head Fi, I pulled the trigger last night and ordered the Harmony.

Any Aussies here can tell me the how long it takes to be delivered? 

Keen as mustard. 

I recently came across feedback from a user mentioning that the resistors used in the LAiV have a 0.05% tolerance, compared to the lower tolerance resistors (0.005%) used in other designs like those from Musician.

Could the company’s designer (if you’re following this thread) provide some clarification on this information and explain how resistor tolerance might affect the sonic performance of the R-2R DAC?

For reference purpose, here is some more information provided from google search.  The typical tolerance of resistors varies depending on the type and application:

1. General-Purpose Resistors:

   • Carbon Film Resistors: Usually have a tolerance of ±5% or ±10%.
   • Metal Film Resistors: Often have a tighter tolerance of ±1% or ±2%.
   • Thick/Thin Film Resistors: Typically range from ±1% to ±5%.

2. Precision Resistors:

   • Metal Film/Metal Oxide Resistors: Used in precision applications, with tolerances as low as ±0.1% or ±0.5%.
   • Wire-Wound Resistors: Can have tolerances of ±0.01% to ±1%, often used in highly precise applications.

3. High-Precision Resistors:

   • Vishay Bulk Metal® Foil Resistors: Can achieve tolerances as low as ±0.005% or even lower.

The choice of tolerance depends on the application's required accuracy and stability. Lower tolerance resistors are used in circuits where precise resistance values are critical, such as in high-quality audio equipment or precision measuring instruments.

This DAC is most likely priced right amongst it’s competition.
Steve Huff is very influential and people tend to forget to put a big grain of salt on a dish he serves when they consume it.

Dismissing neutral and negative reviews is just doing yourself a disservice. This thing is hyped up. That much is clear.

Here’s another take on it that brings it back to earth:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=yc_v6xwLrnc&si=xSd3kaqV2iX6wQ-X

@lanx0003 You've pointed out one of my concerns with R2R dacs, that being performance could vary over time as these resistors could drift in value. R2R dacs are reliant on relatively large number of resistors compared to other audio components, so odds of individual resistors drifting over time is more likely. It would be interesting to see a direct comparison of a well used R2R vs. new example of exact same dac. Has the sound quality changed in any way?

My other issue is the quality of those resistors. I've long used point to point wired, minimalist SET amps and pre's, can hear the difference in changing out resistors. I'm sure your listing of tolerances is generally correct, although there are boutique resistors out there that have closer tolerance within a category, such as Takman carbon film.

So my question is, does the quality of resistor make a difference in R2R dac? Take for example, the TotalDac's, which use the Vishay nudes, which are the gold standard for resolution/transparency. I'd expect TotalDac's to outperform R2R dac with lesser resistors. And it should, as the Vishay nudes far, far more expensive than any other resistor.

Based on my observations of R2R, Holo May KTE seems to be highest resolving/transparency for reasonably priced r2r. If Harmony outperforms this pretty good achievement.

Finally, I've found the ESS Sabre dacs I've owned extremely enjoyable, generally these chip dacs are relatively high resolving/transparent. Implementation of these chips is highly variable, these dacs can be extremely musical or irritating depending on that implementation. Anyway, it would be nice to see a comparison of the Harmony to first rate, newer 9038pro ESS chip dac\.

So I'm in market for new dac, this may be contender, although I remain biased against R2R because of the possible resistor issues

@sns Thanks for sharing. I am used to hearing capacitor leaks but not resistor drifts. There are a few hundred of them in r-2r dac. Time/effort measuring and replacing them might be overwhelming. I am no expert in this and definitely not custom to learn r-2r dac might become a potential maintenance item after one spends a few thousand dollars with it.

In term of sigma delta dac, my preference is always Akm over Ess primarily because the two Akm based Dac I had sound more smooth than Ess-based.  And ironically the only Ess-based one I had is the most expensive one which sounds a bit dry and edgy.  I knew the implementation determines the SQ not the chip itself. Hope the 9038pro chip which can only be found in higher end dac will sound better.  But I were sort of leaning toward r-2r dac when it comes to higher spending on a Dac until leaning drifts issue from you...

Well, the Harmony DAC has a resistor bank that you could just replace them all in one shot for each channel. A lot of DACs use surface mount resistors and they would be very difficult to measure, and almost impossible to replace on the main board.

I've had two components develop issues due to age. A solid state amp and a tube preamp.  Seems to me that components can fail in any piece of electronics.  I like the performance of my Gustard r2r dac, so I think I'll hang onto it and see what happens. 

No such thing as resistor drift for ladder-type DAC's. They use metal-film resistors - not the old carbon comps. Another non-issue by the neurotically obsessed!

Okay, Bourne, now we’re labeled obsessive neurosis (ON). Yes, metal film or modern carbon composite resistors are resistant to aging drifts, as you said, but they can still suffer permanent changes in value if subjected to temperature or electrical overloads/high voltage gradients. Maybe with good surge protection, this won’t be an issue—but who knows? (another ON thought)

I'm with Jason on this one... Resistor drift is a non-issue for modern electronics and should easily expect a ~20+ year lifespan unless there's some serious abuse involved.

Drift Calculation for Thin Film Resistors

There's much greater precision required in other applications (such as automotive/aerospace applications) and somehow the world still turns:

Resistors in aeronautics applications: Meeting the new performance requirements

I was seriously considering a MSB DAC and in one of their design videos, they state that their typical product cycle is 7 to 10 years.  I can't imagine they'd expect someone to buy their $100k+ R2R DACs expecting it to sound poorly before they replace it with a new model.

I'm curious if anyone has ever had the opportunity to compare the LAIV Harmony Dac with the new LTA Aero Dac?  

If yes, could you share how they compare sonically?

Thank you and best wishes,

Don

@no_regrets  Michael Lavorgna reviewed both DACs on twitteringmachines.com.  Each review describes his sonic impressions and he makes some comparisons.

@nymarty Thanks for heads-up on twittering machines.  I was unaware.

And another positive review, how about that.  I enjoyed Michael's perspectives on OS vs NOS modes.

@nymarty Thank you for pointing out the twittering machines reviews of both the Laiv Harmony Dac and the LTA Aero Dac.  It was great to read his various comparisons of sound between these two days and well as others.

I've got a lot of money invested in my vinyl rig and lp's.  I have come to the realization that there is a lot of great music yet to be had that cannot be found on vinyl.  And, the sound of digital has come a long ways over the years.

I have been on the look out for a very nice sounding dac that won't break the bank, so to speak.  I personally cannot yet stomach paying over $10,000+ on a dac. So, the Harmony Dac and the LTA Aero seem to be quite attractive to me at least from a price point objective.

It appears (if I am understanding him correctly) that he thought the Harmony does very well up to it's price point, but not really above it's price point.

Based on the writings of Michael, the LTA Aero (although being more expensive than the Harmony) has more developed sonic attributes that are more in-line with what is important to me.  Based on this and the writings of others, I have decided to order a new LTA Aero Dac for myself.  I think it's great that we are living in a time that we have such great products at price points for everybody to enjoy.

Best wishes,

Don

@no_regrets

Based on the writings of Michael, the LTA Aero (although being more expensive than the Harmony) has more developed sonic attributes that are more in-line with what is important to me.

The following excerpt from the Twittering Machines review inclines me to believe the same is true for me, as well:

From my Harmony DAC review: “Switching between NOS and OS modes throughout the course of the review period had me wishing for something in between.” And while it’s not literally the case, in some ways the Aero slots in between with a more pleasing and engaging balance between color and resolution. More engaging because I respond to richness in tone and texture as being better able to connect me to music’s emotive powers than sharp, super-defined edges.

I hope you’ll report back to us once you’ve had the LTA in your system for a while.

@stuartk Yes, I agree with you.  In fact, in addition to the quote that you had just shared, the following quotes from the Twittering Machines review of the LAIV Harmony Dac pushed me over the top in favor for the LTA Aero Dac....

"Dialing difference and prices down a bit, the LTA Aero DAC ($3950) also sounded comparatively richer, fuller, and to my ears and tastes more involving, making music feel more life-like and less processed."

"The Harmony DAC, running in OS mode, does have a hint of processing it imparts on the sound of music, a kind of subtly overly hyped sense of resolution that can make music feel exciting but over time had me feeling a tad fatigued, as if I had to pay extra special attention to every last bit of every last converted bit of sound that went into the making of the music in play. Switching to NOS mode did smooth this overhyped sound out, moving the sonic emphasis to a richer, fatter, less etched presentation but over time NOS mode felt a bit boring, to be blunt."

" Again, I was not distracted by some sense of too much resolution until I switched to the LTA Aero DAC that immediately created a more spacious and airy sense of place, with more fully voiced piano, sax, and clarinet rounding within it."

So, it was these comparative comments about the LTA Aero Dac that were mentioned in the LAIV Harmony Dac review by the Twittering Machines review that made me feel it may be worth the uncharge in purchasing the Aero over the Harmony. The other thing that I think is of value in regards to the LTA Aero is that you can use various tubes to dial in the exact flavor of sound that you are looking for that will synergistically match the rest of your system.  

However, I will say that at  $2700, it does indeed seem as though the Harmony Dac is at the front of the pac at  it's specific price point.  

Best wishes,

Don

@no_regrets 

Thanks so much for posting the additional quotes. I recognize that, due to budgetary constraints, trade-offs are  inevitable in my case. That's OK. However, sacrificing musicality for resolution is a complete non-starter for me.

When it comes time to buy my next DAC (likely my last) the LTA will be at the top of my list to demo. 

I have compared the Harmony with the latest Denafrips Pontus 15 

on its own with its dual precision clocks and bigger dual o core transformers and now big upgraded capacitors from Japan  sonically a bit richer then the harmony 

that being said I bought the Iris DDC reclocker with the pontus using I2S 

for less then the Harmony ,and they will be running another combo sales my friend said ,using the latest Iris 12 reclocker it 100% exceeds the harmony 

we compared them 2 weeks ago with several other high profile dacs 

@audioman58   I thought you were saving for the T+A Dac 200? I know I am.

I have ve 2-3 audio systems at any given time , my wife is finally on board I go to all the events and audio clubs and let’s me buy Audio on her behalf since I have 40 years + as an Audiophile .

Being semi retired I am going to be settling down soon 

the T+A200 still the best dac under $12k !!

Just received the Harmony. Wow! Fresh out of the box it's certainly better than my Gustard R26. Bass goes deeper with more impact. The midrange is glorious.
Can't wait to see where this thing goes.

@campo007 congratulation. How does its soundstage, particularly the depth, compare to the R26 in your room?

@lanx0003 right now with just 10 hours on it, I’d say the Harmony has the same width as the R26. The depth is still a little flat, but it is showing signs of opening up. 
 

The unit still sounds new and constrained. The top end still needs to open up. Dynamics are also a little flat. 
 

It’s showing some signs of being amazing. The bass is deep and impactful. The midrange is sweet and beautiful, much sweeter than a fully run in R26. Acoustic instruments sound spot on, very natural. 
 

I’ll report back once it’s has 100-200 hours on it. 
 

These are my first impressions 10 hours in. Early days yet. 

@campo007 

The Harmony will hit its sweet-spot after 225 hours...

Wig

@wig , good to know. Thanks heaps!

@campo007 

You're welcome and enjoy the music.

Wig

@campo007 That means you'll need to put on 7-8 hours of music every day within the 30-day window if you're considering a return. Thanks for sharing your feedback. I believe Harmony will be an amazing DAC once it fully opens up.

@audioman58 

Can you provide a little more detail on the Pontus II 15th Anniversary verses the other Dac comparisons? Richer sounding can be bad if it's closed in and dark sounding...

Wig

What I can say  is 2 of their new engineers  Cal poly tech , anything going forwards from 15 on dual bigger transformers 80vac dual higher precision clocks   As well as low noise regulators smoothing capacitors much higher quality Evox capacitors from Japan the big white ones ,used in the Terminator , If you want warmer you go with the nos but Tom if you want a bit more leading edge precision and still slightly warm the oversampling ,   Buch better depth of image, vs the harmony I feel better balanced especially with nos or no nos , with the Big silver  gold transformers 

better bass control, asa bonus , what I found is my wife’s Iris 12th DDC reclocker 

is much better then the previous gen and cleans the signal up very nicely runn8ng a hdmi -I2S cable to the dac , for less monies then the harmony ,it is now I feel as good as the Venus 12, now Denafrips had no choice but to design a new Venus 15 coming out in a month. In a Ca. Audio group my brother met one of the new engineers born in China and  great at what he does in digital.

@lanx0003 I have it running 24/7. Either streaming or a CD on repeat. Will report back in a few days with a 100 hour report. 

@audioman58 

Thanks!

Wig

Wig  the pontus 2 my wife has and Iris ddc , my audio buddy 2 towns over has the pontus 12th  the 15th on all their gear is now a generation better with these new engineers ,when Alvin left he took one of Denafrips engineers ,for the harmony  which is a good dac ,  the pontus has non oversampling,and over sampling 

which is good it gives you solid choices  this new dac much better resolution ,then the 12th anniversary which was a bit better, this 15 model is a big jump up  with the Iris 12 ddc added,now  
best inner detail I have heard under $3k instruments have much more depth and dimension ,a drum head you can hear more of the interplay and Macro details 

buying a reclocker is s no brainer  it cleans the signal  before it goes into the dac ,the Hermes better still but $1300.  for $550: for the Newer Iris 12 it is clearly better then my wife’s gen 2 model.  I2S is built into the newer Iris 12 .Wireworld Hdmi uses the same pin out as PS audio  does . Just look inside  on these 15 series dacs vs the previous 12 th. Pretty apparent ,  my unit still needs breakin  ,but my friends has 400 hours ,I bought a older terminator 2 from my brother that is a solid dac , the new one in another league yet to hear it though    Very good technologies in digital are progressing rapidly.

A Pontus with an Iris DDC is a killer combination. I'm still running a 3 year old Pontus II with I2S to an Iris DDC.....total cost just a tad over $2,100 invested. Not the last word in detail, but really really good in most areas. Enjoyable, fun, easy to listen too, great soundstage and imaging.....just no flaws.

I've been really surprised that I've upgraded most everything else (speakers, preamp, solid state amp, tube amp, cables), and I have not felt the need to rush out to replace the Pontus/Iris combo. I of course know that I will, but the Pontus has performed admirably even while moving up into the solid "Mid fi" category....and I still enjoy listening to it daily

Back to the Harmony, the LAiV scales a lot with a high quality source in my case an LHY UIP USB regenerator. By way of reference, a guy over at Headfi compared it to the Iris and found it outperformed it in his setup, preferred UIP USB direct to DAC to even UIP USB > IRIS > I2S > DAC. This corresponds to my experience vs the Gustard U18 and SU6 where I found the same. Lots of different paths to a great sound.

@kereru  I am new to UIP USB Regenerators.  Can you clarify what you are referring to when you say "the LAiV scales a lot..."?  Thanks.

@audiostick Scales a lot.. upwards in performance… = improves or benefits prorportionately from, is quite sensitive to… a high quality source - is all I meant. Experimentation with the quality of power and signal cables for and between the UIP and another USB isolator upstream of the UIP, along with vibrafion damping and better chassis grounding of the UIP, is all very audible in improvements to the Harmony’s sound. So it is far from being source agnostic/indifferent for USB at least, feed it the highest quality USB source you can and it’ll reward you. My use of I2S has been more limited as the DDCs I tried to date didn’t sound as good as USB from the UIP, but same seems to be true from what experimentation I’ve done there.

@kereru Thanks for clarifying "scales".  Also, good to know about UIP USB as I have only been targeting Streamers with I2S capabilities for future purchase.

@campo007 I have it running 24/7. Either streaming or a CD on repeat. Will report back in a few days with a 100 hour report. 

Anything for the good of the group?  Thx.

Hi @lanx0003 , 

unfortunately for the group - no. But for me yes.  
 

I  had the opportunity to buy a Holo May 3 KTE and I jumped at it. And if I can be completely honest, it’s an amazing DAC. I have since sold the Harmony. 
 

I sold the Harmony with only 40 odd hours on it. I know will be not looked upon favourably for that, with people saying I still haven’t heard the Laiv at its best. They may be right. But I can tell you, the May is many steps ahead of the Harmony. That’s me being polite. 
 

I’m not saying the Harmony was bad. I think for the price it’s great. It was much better than my R26. But it falls short compared to what the May offers in my system. 

I’m not saying the Harmony was bad. I think for the price it’s great. It was much better than my R26. But it falls short compared to what the May offers in my system. 

@campo007  Congrats on finding an even more satisfying DAC.  What aspects of the May’s performance made you choose it over the Harmony?