@lanx0003 You've pointed out one of my concerns with R2R dacs, that being performance could vary over time as these resistors could drift in value. R2R dacs are reliant on relatively large number of resistors compared to other audio components, so odds of individual resistors drifting over time is more likely. It would be interesting to see a direct comparison of a well used R2R vs. new example of exact same dac. Has the sound quality changed in any way?
My other issue is the quality of those resistors. I've long used point to point wired, minimalist SET amps and pre's, can hear the difference in changing out resistors. I'm sure your listing of tolerances is generally correct, although there are boutique resistors out there that have closer tolerance within a category, such as Takman carbon film.
So my question is, does the quality of resistor make a difference in R2R dac? Take for example, the TotalDac's, which use the Vishay nudes, which are the gold standard for resolution/transparency. I'd expect TotalDac's to outperform R2R dac with lesser resistors. And it should, as the Vishay nudes far, far more expensive than any other resistor.
Based on my observations of R2R, Holo May KTE seems to be highest resolving/transparency for reasonably priced r2r. If Harmony outperforms this pretty good achievement.
Finally, I've found the ESS Sabre dacs I've owned extremely enjoyable, generally these chip dacs are relatively high resolving/transparent. Implementation of these chips is highly variable, these dacs can be extremely musical or irritating depending on that implementation. Anyway, it would be nice to see a comparison of the Harmony to first rate, newer 9038pro ESS chip dac\.
So I'm in market for new dac, this may be contender, although I remain biased against R2R because of the possible resistor issues
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I just purchased Harmony, based on reviews, usb implementation in this dac and R2R dacs in general, I2S input is necessary for best performance. To this end I'll implement either Musician Phoenix or Denafrips Gaia DDC with high quality HDMI cable in order to maximize performance.
I'll be comparing to my Musetec 005, new Musetec 006 coming in same time as Harmony. I'm interested in how these Sabre chip dacs compare to R2R. Some claim Sabre chip dacs not 'natural' sound, I've had many Sabre chip dacs, lack of natural timbre, tonality is not a universal trait of these dacs in my experience.
With the DDC I'll also have chance to compare I2S vs. USB inputs on the Musetec dacs, Sabre dacs reportedly not as sensitive to clocking as R2R.
My long held assumption is R2R dacs in general not as resolving, transparent as Sabre chip.
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What do you expect for $2700, Harmony build quality looks okay at the price. Certainly its not full size enclosure, so everything compressed to some extent.
So, there are a few instances of input board issues, I'd like to know what percentage of Harmony are having this issue. And should we expect more failures over time? Issue may be heat related, compressed physical size of unit is a consideration. Now to the good, input board looks to be pretty easy to replace, modular design, I'd have no issues diy, but then I'm seasoned in modding,
No doubt reliability a factor in determining ultimate quality of any component, these failures may or may not turn out to be a major issue. I assume Laiv did their due diligence in evaluating reliability, but manufacturer can only test so many units. Also interested to know if it is one particular input causing the issue.
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First listening sessions with Laiv. Preliminaries: Spent the last few years obsessing over entire steaming chain, all T's crossed and I's dotted, most everything custom and/or off the shelf and modified to some extent. If interested in particulars, on my virtual system page.
In any case, Musetec MH-DA005 has been my reference for the past few years, Delta Sigma using Sabre 9038pro chips, virtually unknown dac without a single professional or youtube video I'm aware of.
My setup employees optimized usb setup, used to have Singxer SU6 for I2S, no longer have provision for this, thus, usb input to Harmony used.
So here we have the Harmony, seems like dac of the month or year or what have you. Not expecting much with these type dacs, flavor of the month and all. On top of that, R2R/ladder dac which I've been biased against as relatively low resolving, overly forgiving topology. So I started off in OS mode, meh, not interesting in the least, over processed, analytical sound, not musical in the least, and the Musetec easily bests it on any analytical scale while being far more musical, natural. So switch to NOS, so ok, this more like it. Like an instant blooming of sound stage and imaging, something like when burning in tubes and they suddenly come on song. Speaking of sound stage, I heard both deep depth and a wide stage, width is one criticism I've seen in some reviews, this not the case here, pretty equal to Musetec here. As for depth, I heard more layering vs Musetec, something that seems to be a specialty of ladder dacs in general. Imaging, very dimensional, each performer individualized on this large sound stage. And size, life size, full bodied, just as they are with Musetec. No doubt modded Klipschorns have something to do with this, large speakers play large in my experience.
Keeping in mind sound stage and imaging are part and parcel of the resolving abilities of our equipment, the Harmony no slouch here, it dug deep and brought out lower level information, much like the Musetec, Transparency up there as well, easily brought performers into room, typical of Musetec and my system in general. Overall, the Laiv presentation very involving.
Speaking of presentation, Harmony vs Musetec. Really hard to get a grasp on this, both very involving in different ways, and most interesting some recordings sound superior on one dac vs the other and vice versa. Very strange how I can't predict which recordings will favor one or the other, sometimes I'd think certain audiophile recordings, lesser recordings, or recordings based on genre or complexity would favor one or the other and I'd be completely wrong! Speaking of particulars, Harmony has this holistic feel, or sense of natural flow that comes closer to replicating vinyl. Musetec presentation highlights inner detail, greater individualization of performers, yet still in a highly cohesive presentation. I find both compelling!
Now for the nits of Harmony, bass easily more prominent, rounder and less articulate than Musetec. Sometimes bass overwhelmed, bringing excessive attention to bass register, could even color certain recording a shade dark.Overall, I prefer Musetec here, bass presentation neutral, simply presents what's on the recording. Still, I wouldn't call the bass problematic, as on some recordings I actually preferred the Laiv, my sense is if the bass on recording is proportional to rest of freq. spectrum Laiv ok, also fine with more natural sounding recordings, Natural resonances of bass instruments fine with Laiv.
The other nit with Laiv concerns a certain loss of composure, organization or ability to individualize performers during complex passages. Mustec retains an even keel with complex passages or recordings with large number of performers. I suspect timing issues at play here, R2R dacs reportedly play better with I2S inputs. This makes sense from a technical viewpoint, large banks of resistors rely on accurate and precise clocking in order to perform best.
Another enigma heard with Laiv, can't get a handle on dynamics just yet, especially the micro kind, just when I think I'm hearing lacking here, suddenly springs to life. I find my attention focused on this certain flat, sameness at times, the breath of life the Musetec does far more consistently seems hit or miss proposition. Could be burn in, believe Harmony may have as little as 50 hours of so on it.
Bottom line, I believe this dac is the real deal, certainly I can hear nits but with some more burn in and/or I2S input I can take up a notch. So, yes, I'd say the nearly universal praise of this dac warranted. With the exception of Hans' pan and Michael Lavorgnia's positive evaluation of OS mode I concur with this being a nice dac regardless of price, could be reference dac for many.
My only issue regarding value is, if this thing requires I2S to reach full potential this means another box, another expense required. In my case, Denafrips Gaia with Audioquest Diamond hdmi cable, $2500 plus $2700 equals $5200. If one already has I2S capability they forego this, but I'm sure many of us don't. Already in house I have the Musetec 005, $3200 retail, in process of burning in newly purchased Musetec 006, $3900, T & A 200 dac available used at around $5k, also the LTA Aero, $3900. These all dacs on my horizon as I switch focus to dacs in the coming year.
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@soix I've considered less expensive DCC, financially speaking this may make more sense, on the other hand I'd like to give Laiv best opportunity to reach it's full potential.
Also curious LTA agnostic about inputs, doesn't even offer I2S. I've always heard and believed ladder dacs benefit from the dedicated clock leg only I2S offers. With the Laiv you can sync to either transport or dac internal clock, superior clock in Gaia another reason I'd chose Gaia over others.
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@pynkfloydd Extremely unlikely power cables, any cables or my modified BPT 3.5 Signature power conditioner at fault. I went through the whole cable routine borrowing cables from lending library at Cable Company, PC's, IC's and speaker at many price points and many manufacturers. I now use diy recipe designed by williewonka, the Helix Image for my PC's, I use VH Audio Airlock in various configurations. I've no doubt the congestion is combo of lack of burn in and the less than optimal usb input. Comparing usb input design on my Musetecs to Harmony leaves Harmony wanting, I2S the way to go.
By the way I use the balanced outs on Harmony to my fully balanced to modified and updated fully balanced Coincident Statement preamp. Based on a couple reviewers who've tried both balanced and SE, balanced preferred on Harmony.
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@pynkfloydd You got me to thinking about my power cables and it just came into my mind I can change bass output with my pc recipes (been a while since I had need to build one). I generally use Take Five Audio cryo'd silver plated copper on neutrals, I can change bass output by changing out number of runs and/or gauge, can also do this to some extent with number or runs on hot with the VH Audio AirLock, further adjustments also possible with gauge of ground wire.
Quite sure I can get the bass in proper tonal balance with rest of frequency spectrum with some adjustments here. Thanks for knocking on my brain door!
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Yes, should have fine backing and service with Vinshine. Also, not unheard of for runs of certain parts to be defective, mass production here. Modular design of Harmony makes repairs easy, just as @standardmodel found. Before judging reliability let the things live in field for at least a while.
So, finally inserted Musetec 006 into system, I have to say the 006 lives in different realm from my Musetec 005 and Harmony. Resolution/transparency on a scale above. Still, I'd easily choose Harmony over 005, Harmony has a more relaxed presentation in NOS mode than either of the Sabre chip dacs. 00l6 DEMANDS attention, Harmony lets you choose. Presentations are important for source components, many will choose the relaxed over the hyper detailed, in any case Harmony doesn't lack detail as it can easily draw you in. Harmony still a very nice dac in my book.
Now I saw an interesting take on youtube the other day, face off between Harmony and MSB (can't recall the model), Harmony didn't embarrass itself against this far more expensive dac. They preferred the Harmony with Aurender via USB vs Hifi Rose via I2S.
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@kereru Thank you, this very informative! I can appreciate all the work you've done in regard to integrating best input on Harmony, and you have very nice equipment which gives much authority to your conclusions.
I only question the implementation of USB in the Harmony, both my Musetecs have more sophisticated usb, not saying the Harmony's bad. I've also bought into the theorizing that transport clocking much more important for R2R dacs vs other topologies, this https://dcs.community/t/dcs-ring-dac-a-technical-explanation/2724 Far too involved reading here for most, just talks about clocking and timing in ladder dacs. So theoretically, Harmony should sound best with highest quality external clock.
So, my next question is, are we playing on a level playing field here? Are the I2S and usb we are implementing to feed the Harmony of equal quality. I'd theorize your usb more greatly optimized vs the I2S you've implemented, same for the youtube video, usb in both those streamers superior to i2s. I could also say just the opposite for those reviews in which they found the Harmony to be superior with i2s vs usb. In any case I haven't explored optimizing i2s as I have usb, initial exploration has me reaching for Denafrips Gaia, and to keep things as equal as possible, AQ Diamond HDMI.
And I agree, the Harmony provides great sound quality with my optimized usb implementation, I too suspect Weng-Fai may be incorrect in coming to this conclusion, I've always found changes in usb chain affect sound quality, even in those dacs where usb not optimally implemented.
HQPlayer is whole other can of worms with me, I use Euphony OS on a custom build server, HQPlayer, Roon and this OS don't play well together.
I've also played f with various footers, stands over the years, I could go on and on. Final solution for me has been dacs and any equipment not too weighty are hung from custom built racks with extremely high test monofilament fish line. This how Harmony, Musetecs and signal chassis of my Coincident Statement pre situated. I like how this method simply lets the vibrations flow into fish line rather than damp them with various footers. I discovered this method many years ago with cdplayers. you could actually see the players move about in relation to cd's spinning, rather than damp that movement theorized sympathetic movement would result in best sound quality. This has proven to be true for me, all footers, stands, and the materials with which their built with impact the sound quality in many ways. Hanging components with fish line comes closest to no footer which means no impact on sound quality. Wish I could find some manner of magically levitating all my gear! For gear I can't hang for whatever reason I like Stillpoints on various platforms, platforms made from various thicknesses of steel, aluminum, various woods, I keep a stock of these to experiment with. And then beyond the platform, what the platform sits on, I could go on and on! Anyway sound like you much like me, we like to experiment, well worth it!
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@kereru Sonore OpticalModule>OpticalRendu>Audioquest Diamond usb. AfterDark optical cable, OM to Teradak LPS, OR to Uptone JS-2, Mundorf silver/gold DC cables.
I'm ok with usb for now, at some point I'll get around to I2S, not in any hurry.
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@kereru Forgot about Audio-gd, the DI-24SE very interesting, and price point very nice.
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Ongoing experiments with Laiv vs Musetec 006. I've been listening to Musetec in main system for several weeks, burn in now up to 300 hours, probably a good 30 hours of that serious, undivided listening sessions. In the meantime I had Harmony burning in on second rig and purchased the already planned for Denafrips Gaia, so further burn in with Gaia via I2S slaved to Gaia clock, just over 100 hours on this setup, so around 250 hours total on Harmony.
Harmony via optimized usb, won't go into great detail here, but usb optimized over many years, many devices, final solution has been optical conversion via Sonore devices. So, upon initial listening sessions thought Harmony via usb pretty nice, prior review reflects that. Over several weeks of listening and burn in Musetec furthered it's advantage over Laiv, both dacs via usb, this based on my memory of how Harmony sounded in main rig. So finally got back to Harmony in main rig, first via usb. Via usb Harmony sounded rather flat in comparison to the Musetec which had improved quite a bit over the weeks of burn in and listening. Sound stage and imaging decent, devoid of comparison to 006 most would probably find it to be quite nice, but it simply didn't have the image density or the ability to escape front baffle of loudspeakers, just rather flat or meh. Tonality or tonal balance also off, lack of air on top, I'd say it was rather dark sounding. Transparency also took a hit, veiled and opaque compared to 006. Both macro and micro dynamics also not up to par, simply somewhat flat and lifeless. While my initial listening to Harmony via usb had been much more positive, the evolving sound of 006 had now made the Harmony a meh listen. Rather like midfi, not very interesting or involving, clear cut loser to 006. I should add this all via NOS mode, since my initial listening in OS mode found it inferior to NOS mode by quite a large margin.
So, now Harmony with Gaia via I2S, clock slaved to Gaia. I don't usually go for hyperbole, but just WOW! Immediately could hear a far more expansive sound stage and the image density just floored me. Gone was the dark presentation, now airy and open at top, bass was also far more articulate and impactful. And talk about black backgrounds, I thought 006 excelled here, well Harmony with Gaia presents an even more ethereal experience, relief from a background plane which allows lowest level details to stand out, I more clearly heard hard to make out words in vocals, and background instruments, this above and beyond what I thought was excellence with 006. Complex passages and/or recordings with many performers now much more fully realized and organized/differentiated. And transparency certainly a huge notch up, no more veils or opaqueness, performers in room quality heightened over the already impressive 006.
All in all I was not quite expecting this, I was expecting something along the lines of subtle differences between this and 006. As it stands today, if I were to only have one dac it would be Laiv/Gaia vs 006, this combo stands head and shoulders above 006. A more analog like presentation presumably due to ladder dac's inherent superiority via chip dacs. And then you add to this all the above mentioned advantages over 006, really not much of a contest here. Now, I'm not entirely convinced yet, 006 more development via more burn in, 006 will be partnered with Gaia via I2S. Not sure what to expect, but usb in 006 is more technically developed in 006 vs Harmony, Harmony usb pretty ordinary. In this case 006 may not benefit as much from I2S as the Harmony. Also, I've long heard I2S is preferred choice for ladder dacs in general, providing precise timing for massive banks of resistors is necessary for best performance. In any case I'm absolutely convinced Harmony's potential will not be heard via usb and/or nothing less than the best external clock via I2S. I'll offer the external clock needs to OXCO, not TXCO or femtoclock, and the internal clock in Harmony is femto. While clocks within dacs should have a theoretical advantage being closer to I2S path, a far superior external clock will better that.
I should add, this review is as much about the Gaia as the Harmony, the Gaia is a special piece. And to think present setup far from optimized, presently using relatively cheap, $70 copper I2S cable (not hdmi cable, I2S cables only have 9 pins wired, all other pins video related), I have Tubulus Concentus pure silver I2S on order. Also using relatively cheap Pangea 14SE power cable, already in midst of upgrade here. Finally, using stock feet on custom build baltic birch platform, will likely use Stillpoints on a different platform eventually, Point here is I suspect further improvements with Harmony/Gaia can be achieved.
For a more contextual or larger view, $2700 for Harmony, $1800 for Gaia makes for a $4500 total expenditure, add to this a quality power and I2S cable. The Tubulus is $700, my diy power cables are a relative bargain, but I'll assume at least $1k to match, now we're at aprox. $6200. And I could add the cost of Stillpoints. My question than becomes at what point do I still call the Harmony a bargain, could I do better with something like the T&A 200 or used Mola Mola Tamlbaqui? Is I2S necessary with every dac in order to extract max performance?
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@dandion Certainly having a streamer with I2S output negates the need for DDC. I could output I2S from my custom streamer via Pink Faun I2S board, this would be less costly solution but went with Denafrip's superior technology here. No doubt a high quality pre required.
Getting away from financials, the Harmony's capabilities extremely high!
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@kereru Your welcome. I changed my order at last minute from the Concentus to Ximius, Ximius is their new reference I2S cable.
I expect you'll find optical conversion to be worthwhile, I started with the generic converters with the wall warts, over time went with Sonore, upraded the Sonore with quality LPS, DC cables, optical cables and Finisar 1475 transceivers. Even the generic devices with wall warts provided an upgrade at the time, knew potential for better existed.
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@kereru Not sure what you mean by optical usb isolators. Optical is an ethernet/network conversion. No provision or need to have usb isolator on first optical converter in line, the receiving optical converter has the usb isolation and output.
EX: ethernet cable> Sonore OpticaModule>Sonore OpticalRendu via AfterDark optical cable>dac or ddc. Both Sonore powered via LPS and use Finisar 1475 transceivers in SFP sockets/modules.
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@catastrofe You have one excess conversion. Why are you doing OpticalModule to MicroRendu, you should be using OpticalRendu, keep it all optical post switch. then OpticalRendu via usb to ddc. I'll reiterate the vast superiority of I2S vs usb with Harmony, this not incremental change assuming one's system highly resolving/transparent. I don't believe it a necessity to have Gaia ddc in order to obtain superior performance with I2Sz, I'd bet on Denafrips Hermes, Singxer SU6 or something similar to be nice upgrade. Don't need high end I2S cable either, $70 cable I'm presently using is fine in most cases, can always upgrade this at later date.
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I've determined the Musetec 006 will be my reference dac for the near, perhaps longer term. Both presentations great, just ooze with ease and refinement, holistic, analog like sound quality. This especially true with both dacs slaved or synced to Gaia clock. Musetec ekes out an advantage with greater resolution, virtually infinite noise floor. Not that the Harmony at all bad here, I could easily live with it's level of resolution, very involving and wonderful dac!
Footnote to above, both dacs absolutely require I2S connection to reach their full potential, also necessary that I2S output or output device optimal, cheaping out on I2S won't get you much past usb.
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@kereru The OpticalRendu does exactly the same thing as AfterDark alternative you linked to, my opticalrendu takes optical input from my opticalmodule which is initial device converting ethernet to optical. OpticalRendu is also usb regen/isolator, it feeds dac or in my case Gaia via usb.
In any case, thanks for sending that link, looks like an interesting piece, may be superior to OpticalRendu. There is also new OpticalRendu deluxe just out, that may also be superior to the older version. I like what AfterDark does, purchased my Finisar transceivers for sfp modules in my Sonore equipment, also upgraded optical cable from AfterDark.
I've also found linear power supplies and DC cables make a difference. Uptone JS2 a choke based power supply feeds OpticalRendu, lesser lps feeds OpticalModule. I make my own DC cables using Mundorf silver/gold wire and Oyaide DC barrels. Optimizing usb going into ddc is important for ultimate ddc i2s output.
We shouldn't hijack this thread too much with network oriented stuff, but the quality of usb feeding one's ddc shouldn't be underestimated or neglected. All of this contributes to ultimate Harmony performance, Harmony potential is really quite high, optimizing one's entire streaming chain will pay off in better sound quality.
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Just as an aside, at one point was running Auralic Vega dac and some other streaming devices off battery PS, lower noise floor, lost dynamics.
I have custom build streamer assembled by some of the leading members of that forum, I added JCAT Optimo ATX LPS. This was their top end diy design prior to the Taiko Extreme clones. Unfortunately, I2S output at the level of Gaia not possible, real estate issue. The XDMI interface in new Taiko looks to be a game changer.
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Seems streamer manufacturers led the way on adoption of usb as 'de facto' interface. Seems logical to me dac manufacturers would prefer the I2S as the interface of choice being the native protocol for d to a conversion. So we have all these convoluted schemes for optimizing usb in dac, and then we have to convert that to I2S, seems like a real lack of utility here.
Have the same issue with lack of optical conversion within streamers. My dream streamer would have optimized optical, I2S, this means top level clocks and power supplies, forget about all the other digital outs, don't need onboard storage hard drives. All this universality only adds unneeded cost and complexity.
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