Anything Laiv puts out deserves some consideration, well regarded engineering team there.
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@mbolek From what I understand, I Harmony NET2 Streamer was not at AXPONA 25. This is not encouraging considering it is due for release in Q3 of this year. |
@lak I did ping Weng Fai about the streamer. Somewhat surprised that their Laiv stack didn’t get more press after AXP. I’m on board with his new GaN amps. Just parted with my Rose RA180 (actually really don’t know why..) I’m listening to the Matrix TT-1 (with LPS) through a couple of other GaN and Purifi amps......I2S is amazing |
I've had the Harmony for about a month and it's not going back. I know nothing about USB interfaces and currently using an OCC based cable and it sounds fantastic. I may look at some DDCs with I2S, but anticipate that Weng will release their streamer w/ I2S. Hermes is on my list along with Halo Red, Singxer and maybe Musician. |
@lak I'm looking forward to their streamer... kinda surprised it's not out yet. |
@alvin1118, I don't believe that you had the LAIV Harmony Net2 on display at the show. Is it still scheduled to be released during the third quarter of this year? Are you aware of target price? |
AXPONA 2025 was an incredible experience! We truly enjoyed every moment and were thrilled to meet so many of our US customers who have supported us over the years. It was also a pleasure connecting with new friends, passionate reviewers, and respected industry veterans. Here’s a behind-the-scenes look at the setup of the full LAiV Audio stack — from an empty room to a full high-end system. We hope you enjoy the timelapse! |
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@kereru, Assume you have received your LAIV uDDC by now? What are your impressions, and how does it compare to the other uDDCs you own or have tried? |
Most audiophiles here claim they hear a significant improvement from adding a DDC. Do they have better ears than audio engineers, are they exaggerating, or do they simply want to justify their spending? |
I’m running an Aurender N200 USB to a Denafrips Gaia 12th and then I2S to the Harmony. All formats work fine except DSD128. The left and right channels are swapped and this only happens on DSD. I’ve tried every possible pinout configuration between the two. I also have a Denafrips Pontus 15th that works on DSD 128 so I’ve eliminated other components in the chain. Anyone else experience this? Thanks. |
@sim_audio_nerd , Agree that not only does LAIV reply, but they reply promptly and honestly. It has been awhile, but based on the online reviews I read and watched last year, the majority preferred i2s to USB, so I am kind of surprised by Weng's reply as well. Noticed that they have pushed back Streamer release to Q3. I'm really hoping that they get this right and it is as good as the Harmony. I think at the $2.7k range, they can be really successful, especially if it features i2s and a good controller. |
I emailed Weng at Laiv. What a straight shooter he is..instead of convincing me that the new DDC is the bomb and I should immediately put my money down on it, he told me that using my Innuos Pulse with a Silent Angel Bonn 8 switch into the Harmony DAC is a pretty good chain. He also added that by adding the DDC I might hear very subtle improvements but not noticeable. Wow, impressed with Laiv..not many companies will be so straight with their customers. |
@sim_audio_nerd I did, last week after my willpower to resist the temptation weakened after a few festive beverages. As I posted upthread there’s DDCs and there’s DDCs, they vary a lot in performance. I seem to be collecting DDCs having a U18 and SU6 in storage (need to sell some!) as to my ear my LHY UIP USB regen comfortably bests both, the UIP bettered only by the AudioGd DI-20HE I was loaned for a month, in turn bested by the much pricier Innuos Phoenix USB regen, also on loan. With the LAiV uDDC, the appeal is a number of things… LAiV’s form to date with the DAC and HP2A both individually and their synergy, its matching aesthetics (a factor if I’m honest if lower weighted), and it’s external power and external clock upgradeability. Noting the latter hasn’t been a silver bullet for the U18 in my system. How well LAiV implemented their clock synthesiser and internal DC regulation circuits in the uDDC, not to mention USB isolation and the circuitry that converts asynchronous USB to synchronous I2S will be key to how it measures up to the competition. Audio-Gd and Denafrips (especially the Gaia and Hermes) are established high performers here, so one is taking a bit of a punt pre-ordering the uDDC. |
I found the Iris made a significant improvement as well. The problem was I changed DACs and the Iris cannot adjust its I2S settings. The Hermes can and has a better clock. If you go Denafrips and you are looking to use the I2S input to your DAC, I would suggest going to the Hermes at least. I'm not sure but I believe that the current and previous generation of Hermes can adjust the I2S setting. |
@sim_audio_nerd I added a Denafrips Iris DDC before my Musician Pegasus R2R DAC and it made very significant improvement. It provides galvanic isolation to reduce noise from USB, a TXCO Femto clock for reduced jitter, and has an i2S output to take advantage of that superior connection, and I imagine all these important pieces (among other things) contribute to the improvement I hear. On paper the Iris seems quite similar to the LAiV DDC but only costs $510 (currently on sale) versus $850 for the LAiV. One difference is the LAiV offers an SPDIF input if you need that, and actually it’s by far the cheapest DDC I’ve seen that offers this. Bottom line — the performance improvement I got from adding a DDC was more than worth the price and was so significant it was on the order of making a considerable DAC upgrade. If you decide to try a DDC other than LAiV make sure it’s compatible with your DAC before buying as not all DDCs work with all DACs. Hope this helps, and best of luck. |
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I’m have the Harmony and the HP2A. Habe had them for two weeks. Burnt in over 100 hours. I have been on the upgrade carousel for some time now. I finally grew disillusioned when MSB started marketing their digital director as a needed upgrade to their Premier. I’d paid over $30k for the Premier and a couple of modules (including their fiber optic USB converter). I have also owned other mid to high end dacs (Chord Dave and TT2 stack, Tambaqui, DCS Lina (the stack), Meitner MA3, Weiss 501, DFripsTerminator and Pontus, Tambaqui. When MSB pushed it digital director, I started smelling snake oil. I want to be clear for the sake of credibility my finances have improved. This is not about money. I am also not an objectivist. Measurements are a factor but never the last word. All Dave do not sound the same. However, once a dac is sufficiently well made such that external noise and internal noose/crosstalk are controlled below audible levels, what’s left is the sound signature built into the chip, whether R2R, AKM, ESS or inhouse designs like Meitner/EMM. The Harmony sounds like a bit the Premier, which was 10x the price. It does what the Premier does. It has that full, lush R2R sound. It offers more resolution and detail than the Premier. I am getting more detail and transient sounds and decay and all of that in a similar sound character as the $30k Premier. I also found that the Premier had a more confused staging, such that I had to adjust my seating position more to get to a cohesive presentation. This is on an Audio Analogue absolute integrated with Bowers magical D5 speakers. It’s also using various high end headphones out of the HP2A. the only DAC above that stands out as as memorable as the Laiv is the Tambaqui. It offered similar resolution as the Harmony, with slightly better instrument separation and space/transients around the performers, but a bit less body. Realistic vocals and their transients (breaths, lips etc, if that’s your thing) are better on the Laiv. These are small differences. I’m a consumer. No money on this. No interest on Laiv. Paid full price from their website. If I have a bias, it’s my long simmering suspicion that my keg was being pulled like a case register lever by these high end manufacturers. For me, Laiv has proven me right. |
Seems streamer manufacturers led the way on adoption of usb as 'de facto' interface. Seems logical to me dac manufacturers would prefer the I2S as the interface of choice being the native protocol for d to a conversion. So we have all these convoluted schemes for optimizing usb in dac, and then we have to convert that to I2S, seems like a real lack of utility here.
Have the same issue with lack of optical conversion within streamers. My dream streamer would have optimized optical, I2S, this means top level clocks and power supplies, forget about all the other digital outs, don't need onboard storage hard drives. All this universality only adds unneeded cost and complexity. |
@audiostick I thought the Innuos Next Gen would have i2s, but the Zen Next-Gen only has USB. I’m using a DDC with my Zen Mk3. |
Just as an aside, at one point was running Auralic Vega dac and some other streaming devices off battery PS, lower noise floor, lost dynamics.
I have custom build streamer assembled by some of the leading members of that forum, I added JCAT Optimo ATX LPS. This was their top end diy design prior to the Taiko Extreme clones. Unfortunately, I2S output at the level of Gaia not possible, real estate issue. The XDMI interface in new Taiko looks to be a game changer. |
@sns Gee that was a superb review/article over at AS on that Taiko, thanks for sharing. I was already a convert to much of his three principles, but boy it was filled with interesting observations on an array of factors relevant to good sound in a highly sorted system. I should visit AS more, I mean when you have folk like John Swenson contributing in the comments. A few points that particularly resonated with me, areas to potentially explore on a more modest budget: - DAC (Direct attached cables) network cables are lower power draw than either Ethernet or optical SFPs, and he seemed to note a correlation between low power draw and sound quality - the level of processing required to playback more demanding high bit rate music was inversely proportional to the sound quality (at least over that new XDMI interface) - high capacity, high current delivery Lithium iron phosphate batteries can sound good but are sensitive to any electronics /cabling in the chain (I’ve observed this first hand in my system with one I use to power a router and modem) - even with super pure battery power, the system was still sensitive to AC quality, power conditioning and potentially grounding helps (again first hand: ground quality is so important, I can highly recommend a low impedance path to ground, or better yet, paths plural) Sorry all, getting a little OT once more - but hey, all just areas of interest in endeavoring to optimize my Harmony-based system |
While I realize the following streamer is completely out of reach for vast majority of us, there is info in here that can serve as a general primer for the reasons/need and implementation of various optimizations for the entire streaming chain. https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/reality-quest-review-of-the-taiko-audio-olympus-music-server-part-1-of-2-r1305/ |
@kereru The OpticalRendu does exactly the same thing as AfterDark alternative you linked to, my opticalrendu takes optical input from my opticalmodule which is initial device converting ethernet to optical. OpticalRendu is also usb regen/isolator, it feeds dac or in my case Gaia via usb. In any case, thanks for sending that link, looks like an interesting piece, may be superior to OpticalRendu. There is also new OpticalRendu deluxe just out, that may also be superior to the older version. I like what AfterDark does, purchased my Finisar transceivers for sfp modules in my Sonore equipment, also upgraded optical cable from AfterDark.
I've also found linear power supplies and DC cables make a difference. Uptone JS2 a choke based power supply feeds OpticalRendu, lesser lps feeds OpticalModule. I make my own DC cables using Mundorf silver/gold wire and Oyaide DC barrels. Optimizing usb going into ddc is important for ultimate ddc i2s output.
We shouldn't hijack this thread too much with network oriented stuff, but the quality of usb feeding one's ddc shouldn't be underestimated or neglected. All of this contributes to ultimate Harmony performance, Harmony potential is really quite high, optimizing one's entire streaming chain will pay off in better sound quality.
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@sns Optically isolated USB regenerators are rare beasts so not surprised you’ve not heard of em. Here’s an expensive example from Afterdark, I got a much cheaper AliX equivalent that comes highly rated from that French hifi tweakers forum. Most USB isolators/regenerators deliver a level of isolation, some superb, some not quite so good, but technically at least, as for networks, they can’t quite match the 100% galvanic isolation of optical. As to the sonic effect it has on my Harmony-based system, I’ll keep you posted. Re I2S vs USB, your vote in favour of the Gaia’s I2S vs your system’s already sorted USB comes through loud and clear. Sounds most excellent. I’ll keep this forum posted as to where I get to with my own comparisons in my system, which have already included an externally clocked U18 via I2S (incl with the LHY USB regen feeding it) and when I can find its AWOL DC cable, my SU6 as well. Though from experience the former beats the latter (noting the SU6 beats the U18 using its internal oscillator), whilst the externally clocked UIP over USB was comfortably better than the former with both the LaiV and R26. Also hope to try an Audio-Gd DDC with the Harmony, it was very good indeed with my R26, if not quite in the class of a loaned PhoenixUSB I compared it to. |
An Optical Rendu is a potential future purchase, the Micro is filling temporary duties. I have had a Signature Rendu SE with optical input in my system and it was great, but I was having network issues and wasn’t getting the full benefit. Now those issues have been resolved so I can look to the future. At that point I’ll need to decide whether a Rendu or some other streamer makes the most sense.
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I've determined the Musetec 006 will be my reference dac for the near, perhaps longer term. Both presentations great, just ooze with ease and refinement, holistic, analog like sound quality. This especially true with both dacs slaved or synced to Gaia clock. Musetec ekes out an advantage with greater resolution, virtually infinite noise floor. Not that the Harmony at all bad here, I could easily live with it's level of resolution, very involving and wonderful dac!
Footnote to above, both dacs absolutely require I2S connection to reach their full potential, also necessary that I2S output or output device optimal, cheaping out on I2S won't get you much past usb. |
@catastrofe You have one excess conversion. Why are you doing OpticalModule to MicroRendu, you should be using OpticalRendu, keep it all optical post switch. then OpticalRendu via usb to ddc. I'll reiterate the vast superiority of I2S vs usb with Harmony, this not incremental change assuming one's system highly resolving/transparent. I don't believe it a necessity to have Gaia ddc in order to obtain superior performance with I2Sz, I'd bet on Denafrips Hermes, Singxer SU6 or something similar to be nice upgrade. Don't need high end I2S cable either, $70 cable I'm presently using is fine in most cases, can always upgrade this at later date. |
I agree with @sns. I actually have a network switch with SFP, so I run: Network Switch/SFP/Finisar Transceiver > Optical Fiber > Sonore Optical Module Deluxe > Ethernet > Sonore Micro Rendu > USB > LAiV Harmony DAC Optical isolation is definitely the way to go for network noise elimination. |
@kereru Not sure what you mean by optical usb isolators. Optical is an ethernet/network conversion. No provision or need to have usb isolator on first optical converter in line, the receiving optical converter has the usb isolation and output. EX: ethernet cable> Sonore OpticaModule>Sonore OpticalRendu via AfterDark optical cable>dac or ddc. Both Sonore powered via LPS and use Finisar 1475 transceivers in SFP sockets/modules. |
@sns interesting re the new Ximius, first I’d heard of this. Re optical fibre I should clarify these are a matched pair of optically isolated USB converters: USB in > SFP socket > SFPs or AOC or DAC cables > SFP socket > USB out. Will use to feed my LHY UIP. Agree re improvements of optical in the normal Ethernet use case, I have an Afterdark pair with Finisar and Cisco AOCs etc. |
@kereru Your welcome. I changed my order at last minute from the Concentus to Ximius, Ximius is their new reference I2S cable.
I expect you'll find optical conversion to be worthwhile, I started with the generic converters with the wall warts, over time went with Sonore, upraded the Sonore with quality LPS, DC cables, optical cables and Finisar 1475 transceivers. Even the generic devices with wall warts provided an upgrade at the time, knew potential for better existed. |
@sns Belated thanks for taking the time to share your detailed impressions of how the Harmony performs with the Gaia over I2S. Sounds pretty great. Look forward to hearing how you get on with the Tubulus I2S (Concentus I’m guessing?). I also look forward to trying some even higher quality I2S and USB gear in the near future. I have a Ustars C19 (ext 10Mhz version) en route, a different price category to the Gaia that’s for sure but the French hifi forum loves this thing, will be interesting. Plan is to use it as an HQPlayer NAA. And a pair of optical USB isolators with SFP cages. Cheers |
@dandion Certainly having a streamer with I2S output negates the need for DDC. I could output I2S from my custom streamer via Pink Faun I2S board, this would be less costly solution but went with Denafrip's superior technology here. No doubt a high quality pre required.
Getting away from financials, the Harmony's capabilities extremely high! |
I am using the eversolo DMP A8 with I2S DH labs silver cable in the Laiv dac. It brings me to 5,2k$ for streamer, cable and DAC combo. Futhermore, the streamer has DSP to fine tune the sound as i want. A lot cheaper than than your 6.2k$ and i am really happy with that. I must admit I have a great pre amp c2800 that help a lot...
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Ongoing experiments with Laiv vs Musetec 006. I've been listening to Musetec in main system for several weeks, burn in now up to 300 hours, probably a good 30 hours of that serious, undivided listening sessions. In the meantime I had Harmony burning in on second rig and purchased the already planned for Denafrips Gaia, so further burn in with Gaia via I2S slaved to Gaia clock, just over 100 hours on this setup, so around 250 hours total on Harmony.
Harmony via optimized usb, won't go into great detail here, but usb optimized over many years, many devices, final solution has been optical conversion via Sonore devices. So, upon initial listening sessions thought Harmony via usb pretty nice, prior review reflects that. Over several weeks of listening and burn in Musetec furthered it's advantage over Laiv, both dacs via usb, this based on my memory of how Harmony sounded in main rig. So finally got back to Harmony in main rig, first via usb. Via usb Harmony sounded rather flat in comparison to the Musetec which had improved quite a bit over the weeks of burn in and listening. Sound stage and imaging decent, devoid of comparison to 006 most would probably find it to be quite nice, but it simply didn't have the image density or the ability to escape front baffle of loudspeakers, just rather flat or meh. Tonality or tonal balance also off, lack of air on top, I'd say it was rather dark sounding. Transparency also took a hit, veiled and opaque compared to 006. Both macro and micro dynamics also not up to par, simply somewhat flat and lifeless. While my initial listening to Harmony via usb had been much more positive, the evolving sound of 006 had now made the Harmony a meh listen. Rather like midfi, not very interesting or involving, clear cut loser to 006. I should add this all via NOS mode, since my initial listening in OS mode found it inferior to NOS mode by quite a large margin.
So, now Harmony with Gaia via I2S, clock slaved to Gaia. I don't usually go for hyperbole, but just WOW! Immediately could hear a far more expansive sound stage and the image density just floored me. Gone was the dark presentation, now airy and open at top, bass was also far more articulate and impactful. And talk about black backgrounds, I thought 006 excelled here, well Harmony with Gaia presents an even more ethereal experience, relief from a background plane which allows lowest level details to stand out, I more clearly heard hard to make out words in vocals, and background instruments, this above and beyond what I thought was excellence with 006. Complex passages and/or recordings with many performers now much more fully realized and organized/differentiated. And transparency certainly a huge notch up, no more veils or opaqueness, performers in room quality heightened over the already impressive 006.
All in all I was not quite expecting this, I was expecting something along the lines of subtle differences between this and 006. As it stands today, if I were to only have one dac it would be Laiv/Gaia vs 006, this combo stands head and shoulders above 006. A more analog like presentation presumably due to ladder dac's inherent superiority via chip dacs. And then you add to this all the above mentioned advantages over 006, really not much of a contest here. Now, I'm not entirely convinced yet, 006 more development via more burn in, 006 will be partnered with Gaia via I2S. Not sure what to expect, but usb in 006 is more technically developed in 006 vs Harmony, Harmony usb pretty ordinary. In this case 006 may not benefit as much from I2S as the Harmony. Also, I've long heard I2S is preferred choice for ladder dacs in general, providing precise timing for massive banks of resistors is necessary for best performance. In any case I'm absolutely convinced Harmony's potential will not be heard via usb and/or nothing less than the best external clock via I2S. I'll offer the external clock needs to OXCO, not TXCO or femtoclock, and the internal clock in Harmony is femto. While clocks within dacs should have a theoretical advantage being closer to I2S path, a far superior external clock will better that.
I should add, this review is as much about the Gaia as the Harmony, the Gaia is a special piece. And to think present setup far from optimized, presently using relatively cheap, $70 copper I2S cable (not hdmi cable, I2S cables only have 9 pins wired, all other pins video related), I have Tubulus Concentus pure silver I2S on order. Also using relatively cheap Pangea 14SE power cable, already in midst of upgrade here. Finally, using stock feet on custom build baltic birch platform, will likely use Stillpoints on a different platform eventually, Point here is I suspect further improvements with Harmony/Gaia can be achieved.
For a more contextual or larger view, $2700 for Harmony, $1800 for Gaia makes for a $4500 total expenditure, add to this a quality power and I2S cable. The Tubulus is $700, my diy power cables are a relative bargain, but I'll assume at least $1k to match, now we're at aprox. $6200. And I could add the cost of Stillpoints. My question than becomes at what point do I still call the Harmony a bargain, could I do better with something like the T&A 200 or used Mola Mola Tamlbaqui? Is I2S necessary with every dac in order to extract max performance? |
@smweber2 i had a similar experience when I added a Hermes between my streaming source (MacBook pro) and my Pontus II. It made a noticeable difference in all the same areas you mentioned as well as transient response. |
I picked up a Denafrips Hermes DDC about two weeks ago and it's working quite well with the Laiv Harmony. The Hermes now receives a coax input from a TEAC 701T CD transport and a usb input from a Bluesound Node 130. The Harmony receives an I2S input from the Hermes. Previously the Harmony received coax from the transport and usb from the node. The improvement in CD sound is primarily spatial, with a slightly deeper and wider soundstage, and also better bass extension and definition. Without resorting to a lot of "reviewer speak", I think CDs with the Hermes in place just sound more enjoyable. The really big bump up in audio performance comes with streaming from the Bluesound Node: everything sounds better from this very modest streamer with the Hermes in the signal path. Bass is deep, full, and tight; soundstage is precise with lots of air around the musical sources; and the overall presentation is very natural and smooth. I'm very happy with the Hermes and the Harmony is too. |
@kereru Forgot about Audio-gd, the DI-24SE very interesting, and price point very nice. |
@sns your USB implementation looks pretty sweet, some nice gear there, I wouldn't be in any hurry either. By contrast I need to up my cable and PS game a little and agree the U18 whilst solid is far from the last word in I2S, the Audio-Gd DDCs with regenerated power on the order hand, they're pretty special.
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