So who can explain the near lack of females in our hobby? There are far more women discussing football than audio, by a long shot. There are a lot more women into fixing up their cars as well. I just can’t think of a hobby, other than ours, where representation is so close to zero.
@russ69 My wife says the same thing but car dealers don't take advantage unless its easy. They size people up which is why in my business we secret shop and punt someone predisposed to treating others that way.
@dronepunk My wife was an executive at a money center bank (one of the predecessors to JPMorgan Chase). Unequal pay for equal work continues at every level of society. What we are witnessing though with the way commerce has changed over the past 10-15 years combined with the warp speed change forced by the pandemic is the barriers to change are getting blown to pieces. Witness Bumble vs Match. I use neither because I am happily married but Bumble is the answer to the question of when are things going to change?
"...I attended an audio society meeting in my area for the first time a couple of years ago -- it was intimidating..."
My wife asked me to take her car in for service. She said the dealer takes advantage of me because I'm a woman. I assured her that her sex has nothing to do with it, car dealers take advantage of everyone.
If you want to really see why the vast majority of women shun the hobby, just get into a crowded elevator at any audio show and just take a good look around.
Thank you @atanarjuat99 and @theo714 for showing up.
Comments in your posts included;
"For the most part, guys were very respectful,"
and,
"Most of the people there were very nice."
If you have any interest in hanging out to learn stuff, ask questions, or just banter, then I suggest building on those positive experiences you described. You are as welcome here as anyone else. If you find a bad apple along the way, don't let it spoil the bushel. Set an example. Help the folks here understand how to attract more female audiophiles. Bring your friends. We could use the diversity.
As far as women not being paid as much as men is a myth. also, just different interest..... You could say the juxtaposition of this is sewing clubs... No exclusion just different interest..
He nails it. I believe that the technology around us is evolving exponentially faster than we as a species are. My Victrola is just over 100 years old, its an amazing little piece that many people enjoyed at the time. The only commonality with current systems is that it reproduces recorded music.
Me thinks that our millions of years of evolution can't simply be brushed aside. Certainly we can be aware and hopefully enough to squeak out another hundred or so years.
@audition__audio No worries. I know where you are coming from. I miss the days where people could disagree agreeably! Sounds simple but it isn't. Lot's of things sting and offend these days when they probably shouldn't.
Some might think taxes should be raised to feed the homeless or fight a war, others might think they already pay enough taxes and we should all agree there is middle ground to have a conversation.
No offense taken. Ten years ago I wouldnt have thought anything about your post, but these days I am getting extremely sensitive to politically correct commentary. Truthfully the problem is probably more with me.
@audition__audio I actually didn't intend to be patronizing to the two brave souls who posted and I doubt seriously they felt patronized. I intended to be kind and welcoming.
If I somehow offended you by doing so, it wasn't my intent.
And then ghasley makes things worse by being patronizing. A participant from an unusual demographic should be treated no differently than the typical "nerd" man. Sorry but IQ remains the same, although a new perspective is welcome. Ladies please avoid speaking for women, but instead speak for yourself!
Thank you for your thoughtful contribution. It would be nice if the specific members whom you mentioned would reflect, and possibly change their behavior, but it's difficult to avoid cynicism.
In any case, I hope to read more of your contributions – on any topic – in the future.
I’m still sticking with my white socks and sandals theory. Add plaid shorts, a Hawaiian shirt, and a slide rule in the pocket and the picture becomes even clearer.
Terrific feedback and thrilled to have two wonderful women in the fold. The average IQ here spiked and Audiogon is a better place due to your presence. Continued happy listening and please do start a thread on a topic that interests you. Be well.
Guys, as a woman who loves music first and equipment second, I can offer a few hints. First women are nervous about being in all male environments where trash talk could hurt. For the record, the way that @oldhvymec and @millercarbon talk about women counts as hurtful. Remember that the culture of sexism that reigned when you were growing up in the 1940s or 1950s is over. Just like the culture of racism is hopefully ending. I remember reading comments on a Steve Guttenberg YouTube asking about why there were so few women audiophiles. For the most part, guys were very respectful but some wrote comments like “they are in the kitchen where they belong.” Even a few posts like that are enough to push a lot of women out of the forum.” I appreciate guys that actually asked their wives and daughters. Just a show of respect rather than answering based on your own experience. Your experience is of you, not others. Be curious.
@towertone - sums up my wife pretty well too. She'll play background music while she's working on something.
Almost the only time she will sit still are if we are out listening to live music at events, like one we're probably going to this coming week. It is nice to see her dressed up (I often think it's to look good in front of the other ladies).
I must admit that going to listen to live music, especially unmiked, it really calibrates the mind to what music and singing actually sounds like in the flesh.
I am a female audiophile. My reasons are the same as men's -- I love music, and a good system makes it so much more enjoyable and engaging.
As for why there are not more female audiophiles -- well, the attitudes expressed here have a lot to do with it. Women are hyper-aware of where they are welcome and where they are not. If they sense that it's a "boy's club" and that they are going to be made to feel uncomfortable, they are going to shy away.
I attended an audio society meeting in my area for the first time a couple of years ago -- it was intimidating. I walked in as a new person, and the person signing me in asked me "who are you with?" It was assumed that I was the wife or girlfriend of someone who was already there.
Most of the people there were very nice. But the "barriers to entry" are huge for most women, who do not want to be the unicorn, regarded as an oddity.
That said, I hope more women do get involved. Some of the comments here, full of stereotypes and assumptions, are an indication that too many audiophiles have not encountered any actual women in the context of their hobby, and it would be a healthy thing if they did!
So you want to attract more women, you got your work cut out for you. A public rebuke of the people who contributed to the rap threads will be a start.
In order to attract more women to the audio hobby someone needs to string up the contributors to a rap thread on Audiogon? This forum = the hobby as a whole? Women don’t listen to rap?
On other audio forums, Audiogon is a joke. Women not only consume rap but also make it.
Who’s to say the cause and effect regarding a problem no one really wants to or cares to fix. Anyone who has been to any of the many audio shows pre-covid need not wonder why there aren’t more females interested in the “hobby”. A few day work strippers holding cables, a few silly cars usually in a color few should hope to emulate. Attending a show answers alot of questions though, for insatance “who buys these shoes with velcro straps”, “where have all the dad-jeans gone” and “Who is this dude referring to in the song Keith dont go and why”. Seriously though, women enjoy music equally as much as men but they just dont need all the ocd bs and locker room commentary. Nor do many gentlemen for that matter.
In this country women got the vote a hundred years ago. Think about that for a moment.
Systemic sexism exists despite MC's love of the "divine individual." His argument drips irony and lacks historical context, not to mention him parroting party/media thinkspeak.
More women would be interested in audio gear if cultural and educational bias was addressed.
It comes down to males are generally more interested in things and females are more interested in people. This is why you see more male than female engineers and more female than male nurses.
My God, at least he answered the question rather than attacking someone. And for the record, I agree with ncbassplayer.
My wife couldn't be more different than me, in culture, religion, politics or interest. She is all woman and understands we have different hobbies. I help her with her plants, vintage furniture, learning woodworking and watching murder mysteries while she tolerates my (ugly to her) music system.
She does, however, love the sound but it isn't something she sits and listens to so we have smaller systems in the garage and yard for her to enjoy while doing stuff. I recently bought her an AirPod Mini system for the bathroom/ closet and she is in love with the looks AND sound.
The dearth of females into our hobby is something I've thought about for years, even posting about it on this site. Women don't appreciate music any less. But when it comes to the gear, they don't seen to care. The WAF (wife acceptance factor) has become a long-running joke. Maybe it's for the same reason that fields such as engineering have only recently been open to and attracted more females. Perhaps years of socialization are at work here. Women were either discouraged and/or intimidated by what they perceived as too technical to pursue. I've yet to have either a girlfriend or wife to care much about my gear. These were smart women (my first wife had an IQ of 155). The gear just held little or no interest for them.
You have to go way back to understand this. We will start with one simple fact, men and women are different. They have different physiology and different instincts. Men have to be strong and powerful. They have to win or they are dead. This is the way we evolved. Men have to be strong and vicious. Vicious means loud and colorful. The idea is to scare the crap out of your enemy. Study ancient cultures. Women on the other hand being as a group smaller and weaker survive by being smart, quiet and good at hiding. Women hate noisy situations. They can not hear danger coming. They have to be up high so they can see danger coming. Just ask any women why they like SUVs and they will tell you they like being up higher, makes them feel safer. Men have to be powerful and loud. Not only do noisy situations make women feel uncomfortable but because their ear canals are smaller they are more sensitive to high pitch sounds and distortion. My wife is my favorite distortion meter. When things are nice and clean she will tolerate much higher volumes. When she complains about the volume if I switch to a BBC (Gundry) curve she is happier even if I do not change the volume. My daughters are the same way but my son in law is a true rocker, turn it up! You also see differences in the music the sexes like. Women are more interested in emotional content, men in abstract music. Go to a King Crimson concert and you will see perhaps 10 women in the entire crowd. Our need to be bigger, better and scarier is probably the force behind the need for ever better performance. Our problem is bigger and better is interpreted by expense. If I can buy more expensive gear it makes me bigger, better and scarier which makes us happy. Thus we buy ever more ridiculously priced equipment. Thank you Mark Levinson for figuring this out! On the other hand this makes for a healthy used market.
Yup. And the irony of this comment by Millercarbon:
So you want to attract more women, you got your work cut out for you. A public rebuke of the people who contributed to the rap threads will be a start.
is incalculably deep. He made numerous ignorant claims, chiefly that all rap music is profane and sexist, and challenged others to prove him wrong. Then, when examples were posted that demolished his ludicrously broad assertion, he disappeared from the thread.
And now, he has the audacity to argue that those who actually understand the rap genre, at least to some degree, and exposed his thinly veiled racist views, should receive a "public rebuke"!
To riff off of the name of a popular Jim Carrey film, it’s Sad and Sadder.
Who really cares if they're under-represented? If they want to be in the hobby/interest they already are or they will be. There's certainly nothing to stop them, and it wouldn't matter if it was considered a "man's" interest anyway. Women have appropriated everything masculine from baseball caps to boxer shorts.
Wonder of wanders, tonight I'll stand with MC & OHM.....*S*
MC, for drilling down to one of the central issues of lyrics, and how they depict women....They DO listen, but with ears of the other, their reality of human interaction as the 'other sex'...which is how they view how they are viewed.... 'Viewed' being a narrow view of a subject akin to the male version of....
OldhvyM...for his unbridled enthusiasm....;)
...and those chickens must be the size of German shepherds the way they demand attention....
(...I see it now....the OHM Fowl Army.....the ultimate in parcel protection. ....the sign at the perimeter....
TRESPASSERS WILL BE PECKED TO DEATH
...not pretty, turn off the cameras and cut Record....)
Spouse prefers the Maggies, but likes the Heils when it's time to Rock. Prefers a setup that doesn't require a PhD to operate, but knows how to properly handle an LP....and appreciates Why. Wants better audio from her 'puter, but no desk space for monitors; plan in hand, pending the time when 'puter is not in use...includes a sub....;)
We take audio pretty seriously around here; the way we both approach it is different....not to mention that which is enjoyed in pursuit of.
For years Iran a Audio store and women were not encouraged to seek out audio ,when you would go to a show everything is promoted forthe man in the home to invest i electronics . the past 5 years I have seen much more women at shows in the past would hire sexy girls. To offer magazines or brochures . hey should encourage ladies to sit down and have a listen . more-then ever ever there are plenty of college educated Women who make good money .the days with women staying home and just raising kids is long gone women actually have better hearing. its a golden opportunity as well as with the youth.
I feel for the
women that have to live
with grown men that use the word mansplaining. It's like being married to a wet blanket, virtue signaling gone horribly wrong. 2021: a year
where the Anti Racists and Anti Sexist virtue signalers are simultaneously the
worst offenders. Hope the
wife doesn't run off
with the help. Chances are very high
I think there’s no such thing. 1/2 of ‘Goners are women, they stay under the radar—they don’t read pointless posts written by men. 😂
Unlike others who are mansplaining, I asked my wife. She says it’s not the nature of most women to sit on their butts to listen to music, and also don’t have the luxury because they do most of the housework and take care of the kids.
Crap you got my back hurtin’ just talking about that car..
Rolls Royce, and a Chauffeur please, a newer version of any of the Bond girls will work.. Yes I love beauty, mini skirts, knee high boots and a Chauffeurs Cap. On second though, "Just Leave the Hat on" My buddy Joe Cocker. Forget the rest I’m a PIG... proud of it too..
If ya got it, flaunt it, when you get older, you cover it... ;-)
I would suggest that women like great sound, but are not obsessed with finding that 1/10 of 1 percent gain for big $$$. High quality audio is found in many ways, if there is no testosterone driven need to be better than the other guy.
They see the end (great sound) rather than the means, gear.
My analogy is sports cars. My wife had a Miata when we married 17 years ago. She enjoys driving a stick shift and a convertible. I am the one who sold it and bought a Mercedes SLK350 (more power LOL). We love gear, they love the experience.
Funny aside, my current sports car is a 1958 Bugeye Sprite. It feels like 90 when going 60 and everyone smile, honks and waves when they see me. Last week two people rolled their window down to talk to me a red lights. And my Bugeye does not have roll up windows, side curtains that live in the garage as I only us the tonneau cover!
As soon as you quit trying to figure out, WHY, you have the correct answer.
YOU CAN'T figure out women.. PERIOD. The person that says they understand women including other women are really whacco.
I'd LEAVE, you're about to get some real REAL bad advise...
I'll go a step further. That includes everyone on this earth.. How well do you know any one person?
My pet friends... that's different.. Hearts as pure as the finest gold. FEED ME, RUB MY BELLY... No question about their motive...
PEOPLE, for the most part, everyone changes. From the first meet and greet to who ever gets to throw DIRT on the other's casket FIRST.
Do you ever really know someone? Male, Female,
Conjoined Twins, do they know each other? I still, think not..
What make us human is OUR secrets. Not what other think they know about us..
See it all the time on AG.
People telling other people what they can or cannot hear.. NOT what THEY can or cannot hear, what OTHERS can or cannot hear..
Especially women, they don't want to hear total ignorance, bantering as intelligence. Statements that "Confront" out of ignorance are avoided most of the time to begin with.
Most people prefer to be admired, or at least ignored not chastised for a lack of knowledge.
In other word, a good lookin person gets away with more than an UGLY person, EVEN if the ugliness is ONLY verbal. KB warriors are a great example..
It's not good enough for some to express an opinion, they (the other person) has to agree in order to pass someone else's scrutiny. When in reality, NO ONE has to be in agreement about anything.
It's self aggrandizing on a universal scale of a ca zillion Zillions.
You know the audio2design approach to everything.. On meds, OFF meds, On Med, OFF meds..
Manic, then depression, MANIC, then DEPRESSION... Like a Yo, Yo on and off the meds. With BOOZE he start really actin NUTS and back on the meds... You'll see a new name will crop up.. soon. Just left under what name? AGAIN..
Same reason WOMEN want nothing to do with the joint.. Play "Misty" for me anyone? Nutty dudes runnin' around calling each other names behind 150.00 fuses..
That should win you the award for dumbest first post ever although I suspect it isnt your first post. Just your first under this username. How very unfortunate that you feel this way.
I wish I could count the times I "got lucky" due to the fact that I did pay attention to my my date, significant other, spouse. The icing on the cake WAS my Audio system and it's ability to set the mood with realism, depth and dynamics! Long live the likes of Luther Vandross, Keith Sweat, Sade and Barry White.😘
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