Klipsch Cornwall IV

I have now damped the tweeter, midhorn, and the three bass ports.  Very easy modification. 

The crossovers are next.  I have to sell something to fund the upgrade. I'd rather go in there once and do it the right way.  So, I'm going to need ~$900.  

Donsachs, do you have any opinion on adding damping to the inside of the cabinet?  It seems to be calling for it.  My concern would be that in lowering the resonance (a good thing) it might create a reflective surface for sounds to bounce around too much and change the voicing. 

jb,
Years ago in my Klipsch Epics i attached sheets of Blackhole, a multi layer anti-resonance sheet for speaker cabinets, and it improved the silence of the cabinet dramatically. I do remember reading in a couple of places that you should not put damping material on the back of the baffle. I don't know why that would be wrong, but I took the advice.

I don't know about damping the cabinets.  They may be as lively as Klipsch wanted to work with the woofer to get the sound they want.  Or not....  The easiest thing is to make whatever you are doing removeable so you can put it back to stock if you don't like the change

Having owned Cornwall IIs and Bob Crites Cornscalas I will say that the cabinet of the CW IV has very little cabinet coloration that I can discern. The older cornwalls, and from what I've read, even the CW III, all had some form of cabinet resonance. So did Bob's cornscalas, which is the number one reason I sold them even after damping the horns and upgrading the crossovers.

I hear none of that in the Cornwall IV.

Oz

I have my grills on.  I take them off now and then, but honestly, like you say, the speaker sounds great with them on and they look cool and the spousal acceptance factor is very high.  Very retro looking.  Is it a perfect speaker?  Is there a perfect speaker?   They are fun and mine are driven by an entirely tube setup that I built and they see about 64 watts/ch.   The amp really doesn't know they are connected.  Unlimited headroom.   The comment above on the bass is my take as well.  Good and quick until the mid 30's.   I just got a pair of Hsu uls-15 mk2 subs like Oz has and they provide the fill in below 40 Hz.  They hardly come on, but they definitely provide a nice fill.   It is a very good system and really, I don't need more.  Someday I might build an entirely new crossover with the same ODAM caps and the pathaudio resistors I used, but seek out better inductors.  I may rebuild the speaker terminals with something a little more convenient and just internally solder the HF leads so there is only one set of inputs.  I am not into bi-wiring.   Maybe I will get around to this stuff and maybe not.  Sounds great as it is.  I think the imaging grade of B+ was pretty accurate with the stock crossovers.   Putting much better caps in and better resistors brings them into the A range....

+1 Roxy and Donsachs.  I agree.  I think I'll stop on damping them--the horns and bass ports are good enough for now.  

I also like the sound with grills on.  

Donsachs, I completed a coupling cap upgrade to my amp and the CWIVs sound incredible. I cannot imagine how things will change when I do the crossovers.  I took a good investigative look when I was inside and I don't think the job is that bad.  I'm thinking silicone tape on the ODAMs would make me feel better about conductive properties. 

I agree on bass being somewhere in the mid 30s. I splurged for two REL T9is and, like you, they barely run.  The sound is massive, delicate, powerful when appropriate, and the voicing right now is eloquent. 

Like you, I don't biwire stuff. And I do think Klipsch could've done a touch better job on the connectors.  I had the same thought about making them a single input.  

A few crossover tips from a guy who did it and learned a lot from doing the first board so the second one is neater and cleaner:)   VCap ODAM caps have conductive bodies, so make sure the cap body cannot contact the leads or the inductors.  Some sort of insulating tape is good in just a few spots where it is tight.  The V in the VCap label points towards the output side of the cap.  Yes, they are non-polar and it really doesn't matter, but if you are being anal, that is the correct way.  I doubt you would hear a difference if they were all mixed up though.   Bend the leads with finger pressure, not a pliers.  Solder hot and fast, but you knew that.   I found it much easier to dry fit the caps, then put a small cable tie base and zip tie on the cap, dry fit again.  Then peel the paper off the base and I put some goop adhesive on the board where the cable tie base touches.  Then put the cap in and pull down gently to snug the cable tie base to board, solder leads.   I let the board dry for an hour or two before installing in the speaker and those caps will never move.   I also really felt the pathaudio resistors were a wonderful upgrade as well.  They removed the last trace of brightness.   With the VCap ODAM and the pathaudio resistors the speaker retains all the things you love about it, but there is more subtle detail and no brightness.  I twisted the drain wires of the resistor bodies together and ran them to the main Woofer "- " terminal, which is ground.   You just have to wait 50-100 hours for everything to run in, and you will think you have ruined the speaker for the first few minutes!  Just wait.....    

I never really understood Klipsh.  They could have spent $100-200 more per speaker and made them so much better.   The rear speaker terminals are not that great.  They look nice, but functionally... you can get good Chinese gold plated terminals for $10 a set or less that I would prefer.   The connection to the crossovers with the tabs rather than soldering.. well I understand.  Much faster to build and if you ever need to pull the crossover you would be swearing as you tried to unsolder the wire unless they left enough service loop so you could pull the assembly from the rear and do it from outside the speaker.  Right now I doubt you could as the wire from speaker terminals is pretty tight to the crossover.  If I change it all I will leave just enough wire that it could be done from outside.  You have a 10 ft run of speaker wire to the box, an extra 6 inches inside is not going to matter that much.   I have pulled the woofers three times and really don't want to do it again though.  The T nuts in MDF... you don't want to push it.

Great information Don!  Yes, I find the hardest part of the surgery to be the put back—placing things just so can be tricky and when done right it looks easy. Deceptively easy. 
Parts Connexion is out of one of the Path resistors I need. That will curb my spending for a bit longer!! 

Hi
I got the pathaudio ones from hifi collective in the UK.  They have FEDEX for about $30.   Or mail...    They had the values.   I would wait until you can do it all at once.  Spendy indeed if you don't have OEM accounts, but if you are keeping the speakers it is worth doing in my opinion.....

What are the height and width of the midrange horn on the Cornwall IV?

Once again, can one of you here who owns the Cornwall IV speakers give me the height and width dimensions of the midrange horn?
Much appreciated.

Come on over and measure itself you lazy b*stard! :) 

13 1/4 x 9

Thanks so much Ozzy!
I was curious to know if it was a larger horn than the one on my Epics. As it turns out, the size is the same, although I realize that the throat design on the new Cornwalls is much more advanced. 

The PathAudio resistors have been ordered.  I'm close to pulling the trigger with Chris at VCap.  

I've damped the high, mid and bass ports. I've managed to use my existing Auralex Subdude II isolation pads under them--they actually fit even though measurements are deceiving.  The Klipsch platform is underneath and narrows the dimensions by ~1.5" each way so the Auralex work.  

I think with the VCaps and Paths, plus this other stuff, I'm closing in on Volti's clarity and beauty.  The CWalls already sound better. 

By the way,  I know some may disagree, but from a subjective perspective I think VCap and ClarityCap make superbly fine caps.

Crossovers:
I've now completed the crossover upgrade, including all caps to VCap (with exception of that 60uF linked to the woofer output) and Path Audio resistors.

Dampening:  I've also damped the tweeter, midhorn, and bass ports.  After knocking on the speakers and testing vibration, it seems Klipsch could've added some mass internally too, but since I'm not an expert I didn't want to fuss with that too much.  That said, I did put Dynamat on the internal floor of each unit. That area was ever-so resonant.  I could easily tell that the bass firmed up after placing Dynamat on the floor of each unit, as my REL subwoofers had to be readjusted. 

Sound:  Don is right--it doesn't take long to hear the improvement.  Let's see after 100 hours or so.  

Finally, a couple of notes. 

--Binding post Setup.  These are just silly.  They are fussy, inexpensive, and my Wharfedale Lintons ($1500 with stands) have way better posts. Why Klipsch? Why?  This is a $6k speaker.  I don't believe you really need to go all out here, but quality is key to a good fit and to them holding up.   I actually broke one of the bolt-posts when reattaching a nut, and I was tightening them just past hand tightened.  Terrible. So, I'm going to update the binding posts next. I really didn't want to do more, but these are just silly toys they used.  

--Crossover Tips.  As Don had indicated, you need to ensure the VCap ODAM bodies don't touch anything conductive as they are conducive too.  I started by applying high grade silicone tape (electricians use this to cover high amperage lines).  However, I got a bit nervous about anything touching so I tore it off and started over by wrapping each and every capacitor;  peace of mind.  I was more concerned about this than gluing caps and resistors down, as I have tight welds on the leads.  

--Patience.  Patience is a virtue here; none of this was difficult. Going slow will reward you.  Don't do it if you're tired, moody, hung over, having a bad day, etc.  

I'm seeing caps, resistors, dampening and binding posts as all being substantial upgrades (with the first 3 affecting sound).  Klipsch should make a signature version at $8k.  Now, I think that I see what is the difference between Klipsch and Volti. 

One more thing--  The crossover PCB is very high quality.  Huge traces, thick board, giant through holes.  

You will be shocked-and I do not use that term lightly- by the improvement you will have by adding an external DAC like an Ares.
You may even find you can spend some time back with your CDs.
Try some XRCDs by JVC. Best sound I've found on digital.

From past experience with other speakers that I upgraded myself, it is worthwhile sonically to replace the binding posts even if they aren't flimsy. I'm sure that they're brass, and you'll be happier with solid copper. There are copper binding posts that aren't very expensive.  

@roxy54 ,  I finished that today. Wow.  I should've just done it when I had the speakers open and apart.  There was very little of the Audioquest wire they used to wire them to the posts available to strip and solder.  

My soldering iron is taking a few months off!

I have to do my binding posts as well.  I am sure I will have to pull the woofers one more time because as I recall, there is very little service loop so you cannot do it from the rear.  An extra inch or two of wire would have made it possible.   I will get to it eventually.   So @jbhiller , have you got 50+ hours on them since the crossover upgrades?

I don't get Klipsch Heritage line. Some believe the stock speakers just fine, others have need to modify. As for myself, I'm in the mod camp, how anyone can put up with their timbre anomalies is beyond me (other issues I won't go into, timbre by far the worst). Klipsch should listen to the modders, institute some of those upgrades in factory versions. Most of these mods wouldn't require steep price increases, and put Klipsch in higher echelon of loudspeakers. Heritage line has some real inherent advantages, not taking advantage of them in stock form. Haven't heard the latest Heritage models, so I can't comment on whether Klipsch improving, but continuing mods lead to same conclusion.

As for the Klipsch purist. Do you believe the modders are experiencing real improvements, or is it delusion?

sns,
I don't think that there are too many people who don't believe that modding leads to improvement, but just like in anything else, there are many people who just purchase something and use it the way that it is. I also think that there are some that are simply afraid to try because they don't feel that they are able to do modifications. 
It can also be that they stretched their budget just to buy the speakers and now can't afford to mod them even if they had the inclination.
My Dad was very financially secure, but he grew up poor, and he would never think of doing such a thing. Anything that he used in his life , whether it was a suit or a sink was always "good enough" to him, and esthetic considerations had no meaning. I wish that I was like him, because I would be much richer. I'm always looking to improve the looks or performance of things that I own and use.  

I’m in the camp where I believe that mods would help, but I don’t have the knowledge or time to dig into learning how to do this myself. I wish I could easily tackle all the mods that have been recently discussed. Maybe someday in the future.

That being said, if you have not heard the recent Heritage line, maybe it’s worth a listen. And if you do, and you’re experiencing timbre issues - as I initially was - then try a different amp. A low power tube amp really made the difference for me.

+1 @raindog69 

The new heritage series need make no apologies, they are that good. Low powered tubes make them shine. But I am gobsmacked by how good the high powered Allnic amp I just bought makes them sing. Holy cow I wasn't expecting the CW IV to sound like this with an amp upgrade, but there it is.

Oz

Thats just the thing about the new Heritage, they love good electronics.  They reward you with better sound when you make the right choice in amplification.    I was a with a non audio enthusiast and stopped by a Klipch dealer to pick up an accessory during work.   We ended up listening to the Cornwall with the little Luxman 10 watt EL84 integrated amp.  That combo sounded scary lifelike , he was blown away .  He had never heard anything quite like that in a home listening environment 

Let's just say if the reviewers had heard the speakers with far better crossover parts in them they would have been blown away.  The speaker with far better crossover parts, damped horns and woofer frame, proper isolation from the floor... it is not even close.  The stock speaker has wonderful dynamics and the reviewers loved them.  That said, most reviewers noted that it was the dynamics and tone that they loved and they put up with the sort of B+ grade for imaging and separation of elements in the sound stage.   The modded speaker does everything it originally did, but the sound stage and imaging are vastly improved as well as the blackness of the background and separation of elements in the mix.  It becomes very good at all the hifi stuff, and retains all of the things that it did well, but it does them better.   There is just no contest.  

For me, mid horn design and construction material extremely critical, Tractrix design and wood construction. Exponential metal or plastic horns cannot provide natural dispersion or timbre. Tweeter and mid drivers need to be in proper physical alignment for speaker time alignment, improves mid and high frequency balance .I have both mid and tweeter horns on separate baffles for optimum toe in or out, major improvement for sound staging, imaging. Improved crossover parts also improve timbre, sound stage and imaging.

Stock Klipsch Heritage greatest inherent quality is incredible micro dynamic expression, sense of live performers in room intoxicating. Resolution and transparency wonderful as well.

I understand some of my mods would not be easily applicable to a consumer market loudspeaker. Still, I'd like to see a Heritage state of art model; an ultimate expression of the basic design. As Don stated above, a speaker that does all the things stock Heritage does, only does it better. There really is no contest, modded Heritage is my final loudspeaker. I don't say this lightly, have never called any piece of audio equipment my end game, this is the single exception in over twenty five years as audiophile.
I'm not saying stock Klipsch Heritage is not a fine speaker, I understand the enthusiasm.  Matched with sympathetic partnering equipment, inherent limitations can be minimized. I use mine with 845 SET, 300B monoblock SET and EL34 push pull, all wonderful, I'd next like to try 2A3. I'll also reiterate I've not heard latest Heritage, I'd hope they've improved since earlier models.

@donsachs Have you ever thought of YouTubing your Cornwall upgrade process? I'd love to see the step-by-step action from removing the back through putting it back on after all the mods.

No, I am a tube amp, preamp, and phono builder, not a speaker guy.  I have a pretty big list of things to build.  I just do those other things for myself and really don't have the time for youtube or social media.  I really wouldn't want to be responsible for someone destroying their speakers and voiding their warranty if they watched my video, but they didn't know what they were doing.   Or having to answer multiple inquiries on something that isn't even my product.   So I stay out of the limelight.....All I will say is if you know what you are doing you can improve this speaker considerably without losing any of the things you love about them.

@raindog69,  I have some photos that I could share.  I performed a similar if not identical upgrade as donsachs.  

I would say this is an intermediate level project.  I didn't find it terribly challenging on the skill level, but I did find it taxed my patience.  

There’s no question in my mind that the CW IV crossover can be easily bettered with more substantial parts. The caps and resistors are run of the mill. Careful here--I’m not saying that leads to run of the mill sound. See my post on modifying the Carver Crimson 275 amp. Bob used some decent and some dirt cheap parts in it. The coupling caps in that thing were the size of my pinky fingernail. They are inexpensive and not of good quality. Can they sound ok in a good circuit? Sure. Same thing with Klipsch CW IV.

I’m not saying folks should do this to the CW IVs. But, I will venture to say, and I’ll bet DonSachs would likely agree, many folks will question what he and I have done here while they are out buying very pricey power cords, interconnects and so on. This upgrade will best all of that in my humble opinion.

My CW IVs are about 100 hours in or so. They sound glorious. VCap ODAMs are really special caps. They almost sound like the cap is out of the system.

@jbhiller Thanks for the offer, but even with detailed photos, quite frankly, I'm unlikely to attempt these modifications. I lack two necessary things at the moment - time and patience. Maybe one day, as I'm sure the mods would make these speakers even better than stock.

As Don had indicated, you need to ensure the VCap ODAM bodies don't touch anything conductive as they are conducive too.  I started by applying high grade silicone tape (electricians use this to cover high amperage lines).  However, I got a bit nervous about anything touching so I tore it off and started over by wrapping each and every capacitor;  peace of mind.

@jbhiller , many thanks for the details on your mods. Between your experiences and Don Sachs's, I'm getting closer to trying them myself.

So what exactly did you end up wrapping the ODAMs with? And how did you glue them down?

I wrapped the ODAM bodies with black silicone electrical tape.  Something like this:  https://www.amazon.com/Seal-Self-Fusing-Silicone-Tape/dp/B08B3JSJF3/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dchild=1&key...=

I honestly didn't glue every last piece down.  I realize vibration could play a role here, but my solder welds were very strong and I positioned things so snugly that nothing is going to move. You could easily put some hot glue or clear silicone underneath replacement parts to go the extra mile.  I believe Don did. I think I put some silicone under two of the biggest caps.  Frankly, everything fits so snugly anyhow.  

I took photos and a video of everything before I disassembled it just so I'd have a reference as to what went where. 

Thanks. I appreciate the info.

jbhiller,
I guess that I missed something. What was the reason for wrapping the ODAM caps?

Maybe a separate thread for modifying this already great speaker?

Also, for whoever is planning to undertake these “upgrades” perhaps you can make a high quality recording before and after?  There is always an element of a chef liking his own soup.  It is unavoidable.  Also, sometimes a perceived increase in detail can become fatiguing long term...  Not to mention what it does to the resale price.  For myself, I never buy anything that says it has been “modified” or “upgraded”.  
Please no flames, I just don’t want folks tuning in to this thread to feel they should stay away from these because they don’t want to upgrade it.  I have built many amps and am a V-cap fanboy but I am not considering changing one thing about this speaker.  We all have our idea of a perfect tonal balance in a speaker.  For me, this is it, as is.

The Cornwall was a very fun speaker to spend 2 1/2 months with. A great design and will really keep me engaged with horn speakers in the future. At the end of the day I missed the refinement and clarity of my audiophile ways too much. I was hoping to pull away from such shenanigans but I enjoy chase. For what it’s worth I would buy these again before other speakers I’ve owned including the O/93’s. Very fun.
I can’t seem to stray too far from Verity speakers and I’m back again. Thanks to all the members in this thread that shared great stories and advice and passions for these great speakers.

Well bjesien it sounds like you need both!
For me I always need options.  I don’t always want to hear the same speakers, amps, or sources.  My alternates to the Cornwall 4’s are Dynaudio Heritage Specials, which I also appreciate very much!  They do require different amplification.  While any amps that work on the Heritage Special’s work well with the Cornwalls, not all amps that work well with Cornwall’s, work well with Heritage Specials.
That said, the Cornwall’s are my daily drivers.
Are others also swapping in other speakers occasionally?

Very true. Getting out to hear the Fynes soon, have an interest in the Tannoy Arden, Coherent, and the new Soul looks fun too. Never a dull moment. Well, hopefully not!

Are others also swapping in other speakers occasionally?

For sure. My primary speakers for the past decade have been PMC Ib2i on customer Sound Anchors, modded with Furutech binding posts. I drive them with a couple of different high-watt Class A solid state amps, a couple of preamps, a few different phono stages. I bought the CW4 as a low-watt alternative (although they sound pretty good with high-watt Class A, too) so I can use SETs and other little amps.

Both CWs and PMCs are on Herbie’s Giant Gliders so I can easily slide either one into a nearby closet, plop in a different amp, and listen to a vastly different approach to sound with no falloff in enjoyment. Takes all of 5 minutes. I love the flexibility.

I agree that maybe a separate thread is required for some of the sub-subjects discussed here. 

@dbarger, I very much understand where you are coming from. You make good points about resale and the speaker being great as is.  

I would, however, note a few things about my perspective. 

First, having heard Volti loudspeakers I think the Cornwall IVs are not as good stock as some Volti models, yet they can and should be.  But, I didn't want to spend $10k on Volti units.  

Second, it is utterly apparent from opening up the CW IV that some of the build leaves stuff to be desired.   That 2 x 4 used as bracing, the wonky binding posts, the lack of internal damping,  the hanging foam insulation that appears to be kind of intentional and kind of sloppy, and so on.  

Third, I think a lot of folks' views on capacitor upgrades are influenced by the soldering element.  It seems scary to be welding on new audio gear.  It is important, though, to me to remember that such modification doesn't change the circuit in the crossover network at all.  Instead, better capacitors and resistors are allowing better signal to pass.  I, subjectively, find capacitors to have just as much if not more potential to influence sonics than power cords, cables, tube rolling, and so on--at least when we look at the cost of these things.  And, all these mods are reversible--easily.  

I also think it's important to look at the context of all of this.  My impetus for modifying the Klipsch CW IV was not to change it and it wasn't motivated by me wanting a different speaker.  To the contrary--- I had a keen sense that this speaker could be spectacular.  There's no question that Klipsch built these to a price point. Why?  Everything is built to a price point.  It's the nature manufacturing.  

So I look at this speaker as sort of like a car made by an American manufacturer.  Sometimes they build stuff to state of the art but most times they do not.  If we talk to people who run audio manufacturing or custom build businesses many say (e.g. Atmasphere or Don Sachs) that parts like VCap capacitors are truly better and special.  

Finally, you are totally right--folks should not run from CW IVs because a couple of people modified them to subjectively better heights, and talk about it on a forum.  They are wonderful speakers in their own right.  I never modify something that I dislike, just as some wouldn't buy a $1k, $5k cord or cable for a piece of gear they do not like.  I modify something where my sense is it can be made substantially better without jeopardizing the integrity of the piece.  

If someone is out there considering the CW IV, do it.  They are wonderful stock.  They DO NOT NEED to be upgraded, modified, or changed in anyway to experience wonderful sonics. 

If you're considering a Cornwall IV purchase, I'd recommend doing it soon.  Klipsch is raising prices again on September 15th by 15%.  This is the second time Klipsch has raised the MSRP since I purchased my CW IV in March 2021.  Back about 3 months ago they raised the the price from $6000 to $6598, beginning Sept 15th, the MSRP goes up to $7588.  I'm happy I bought them when I did for 25% off!  I saw the price increase announcement in an email from Upscale Audio.  

@dbarger, regarding swapping speakers with the CW IV.  Absolutely, I bought my CW IV to swap with my Sterling Broadcast LS3/6 BBC monitor with a REL S5 subwoofer.  The LS3/6 is a great speaker that was just awarded (again) the Golden Ear Award by Robert E. Greene in the Sept 2021 TAS.  I also have the Harbeth M40.1 speakers so I have 2 other great speakers.  The CW IV and the LS3/6 are quite different and that's what I wanted was 2 speakers that are complementary.  The Harbeths are in another system so I don't really swap them. 

The LS3/6s are a speaker that images like a laser, and produce a huge 3D soundstage.  They also are transparent and completely disappear as well as any speaker that I've ever heard.  Their midrange is very natural and the BBC engineers voiced them incredibly well.  The REL S5 sub mates seamlessly with the LS3/6 to make a great sounding full range system.

Actually the Klipsch Heritage line 15% price increase starts September 1st not the 15th like I stated above.

Anybody in North Carolina have a pair of CW4's and would allow for a demo.  Vaccinated, and have a mask.  Thanks,

What part of NC? I am in southern virginia so I might not be far from you.

I'm in Atlanta if you are in southern NC. You're welcome to have a listen
David