Klipsch Cornwall IV

I have been listening to the CW IV since December in my room.  They are staying put. 

To me, they sound like a live production.  The create a large, seamless soundstage--once I dialed in the positioning, which was surprisingly harder to do than I thought. 

One caveat--  they are super revealing of source and amplification.  Amplification, in particular, has been a fun journey for me.  

Personally, as someone who plays music, they sound like real music.  There are wide dynamic peaks and troughs.  Classical--one of my least favorite genres (only because I get lost in it so quickly) is so much more dynamic and thrilling.  

I'm now that guy pushing 50, using all tubes (pre amp, amp, sources (phono and DAC) and running horn speakers.  I couldn't be happier.  

I have a large-to-me room.  It's about 22' long, 15.5' wide, with 10 foot ceilings.  I do run a REL T9i sub, BUT it's set so low on the crossover and volume setting so as to just fill in that extra octave.  

Someone above thought the bass was lethargic or less than impressive. In my experience, these are not bass heavy speakers yet they do go down into the 30s.  Everything effects the output with these, so just trying a different amp or source or tube or cable can change things more drastically (but not drastically) than I was historically used to.  

If you can spend a touch more, I'd look at Volti's offerings.  I think his stuff gets real pricey when you start looking at nicer finishes.  

I've tried the Cornwall IVs with 4 different amps and my go to right now is a Bob Carver Crimson 275--favored even over my 300B.  The pairing in my room sounds "delicious"--I apologize for using the word but it's the best that I can find to describe it.    While I'd be open to trying any amp with them because it's so captivating to hear the immediate differences, I would think cool and analytical amps would sound a touch thin and boring with them.  Nonetheless, there could be a Class D amp that would work.  My takeaway--I don't think you have to spend a fortune to get them to sing and synergy is important, yet I would be sure to try driving them with wide bandwidth amps, particularly of the vacuum tube variety.  

I think the only downside with trying them out is return shipping.  They have to be shipped by freight given their weight and size. 

I don’t think music is authored on inexpensive amps and gear. In fact, the studios I’ve been to all had hundreds of thousands of dollars of gear. Not a cheap amp to be found. 
Certainly live venues might be using Crown and inexpensive amps for playback. 

Placement of the Cornwall was, for me, surprisingly more difficult than I expected.  At first, the sound was so big and beautiful that I thought they were easily positioned.  I was wrong.  

I literally had to get out the tape measure to ensure they were equidistant.  That resulted in a big improvement--like a new, better component.  

I find them more sensitive to equal/precise placement than a specific distance from the side/front wall or toe in.  Those things still matter though.  

At some point I'll re-evaluate my positioning to ensure I'm right on and to satisfy curiosity.  For now, I hate to change them because things sound so comprehensive, large, and dialed in. 

My room is about 15.5' wide.  I have them about 20" from the side walls. 

I only have them 8-18" from the front wall.  They are towed in so that's why one corner is 8" from the wall and the other longer. 

exactamundo jjss49 ! 

@donsachs ,  Very good to see you here Don!  

Do you think you will go through with the crossover mod (VCaps)?  

I’ve owned these speakers since December 2020--Ozzy really motivated me because I respect his opinions and measured views. I was coming from Forte IIIs. Here’s what I’ve experienced:

• Break-in . It was real, but at about 75-100 hours everything settled in nicely.
• Positioning. They are NOT fussy about distance to the front wall. They are, for me, fussy about toe in and width between them. Also, it’s the first speaker that I’ve owned that can be listened to in a closer sitting and farther away. I can’t say which is best--both are good and different.
• Dynamics. Amazing
• Imaging. Decent--say B+
• Soundstage. Unreal for me. They sound like live music.
• Treble. Crisp, clean and never fatiguing with the right gear. Be careful. They pass signal like no other so everything matters.
• Midrange. Seductive with the right setup.
• Bass. Honestly I expected more, but they are tuneful and taught to about 38 hz. I augment with 2 REL subs--not for boom, just to get the feeling of space, dimension and to fill out that lower octave.

This speaker is so darn sensitive to gear swapping. It’s fun and addictive. You just cannot feed them junk.

They sound effortless. Here I am in my late 40s owning Klipsch speakers running tubes throughout my entire system. I’m that guy now and happier than ever. I don’t think I can go back to different, modern designs.

Finally, I did damp my Forte IIIs midrange drivers. I’m wondering if I should do that here to. I would think Delgado did a great job, but....I’m curious!

Thank you Don!  I'm very tempted to make that swap.  Maybe I'll damp the midrange and take a look around.  I may wait til the fall and the cold air hits Chicago, as summer is too short up here. I'm very, very tempted.  

@donsachs , 

Hi Don!  I started to put together a parts list to modify the crossover caps.  I like VCAP much. I've used their CuTFs before.  Can you shed some light on where one could cut corners a bit to save cost?  The reason I ask is that the mods you did come up to $896 in caps--

All values *2 loudspeakers
2.7 uF $87
2.2 uF $84
6.8 uF $101
1.5 uF $82
4 uF $94

I may do the VCAP ODAMs on 2.7, 2.2 and 6.8 and try something more affordable on the other values. 

@earlflynn,  you say, "Hersey are nice with low powered tube amps also, one could do better though than any Klipsch speaker."

Can you explain what you are saying here?  I'm confused as to your point and the context for your experience.  Thanks!

Oz, you are correct. 

tubebuffer, you have a way with words. 

Thank you Don for the follow-up.

I opened them up today to take a look around and damp the mid horn and tweeter. As an aside, the damping made a real difference. I was not surprised as I damped my Forte IIIs and it helped materially there too.

You are fortunate to be able to take advantage of vendor/quantity discount pricing with Chris (Good guy by the way). I used VCap CuTFs in a Primaluna integrated that I modified. They, along with Audyn copper, worked superbly. I sold the amp, nevertheless, as while I improved it I found something that I found to be a better match for the CW IVs.

I think I may wait 6 months and do the cap upgrade with the ODAMs--to give me time to allocate funds. The size of the ODAMs alone is likely to save me some real headaches.

With regard to the Path Audio resistors, their size seems to be a decent fit over the ceramic stock ones. I don’t know the manufacturer of the ceramic stock resistors and, unlike some folks, I do not believe that ceramic cast resistors are necessarily bad, poor sounding, etc.

Finally, I need to figure out and understand (just my nature) the function, application and wiring concerning that third wire on the Path Audio resistor. Is it some kind of ground or drain? What does it do and where does it link to, if anywhere?  Any intel will be appreciated but I know folks are busy.  I'll try to learn about this on my own. 

Thank you Don! Perfect information.  

I have now damped the tweeter, midhorn, and the three bass ports.  Very easy modification. 

The crossovers are next.  I have to sell something to fund the upgrade. I'd rather go in there once and do it the right way.  So, I'm going to need ~$900.  

Donsachs, do you have any opinion on adding damping to the inside of the cabinet?  It seems to be calling for it.  My concern would be that in lowering the resonance (a good thing) it might create a reflective surface for sounds to bounce around too much and change the voicing. 

+1 Roxy and Donsachs.  I agree.  I think I'll stop on damping them--the horns and bass ports are good enough for now.  

I also like the sound with grills on.  

Donsachs, I completed a coupling cap upgrade to my amp and the CWIVs sound incredible. I cannot imagine how things will change when I do the crossovers.  I took a good investigative look when I was inside and I don't think the job is that bad.  I'm thinking silicone tape on the ODAMs would make me feel better about conductive properties. 

I agree on bass being somewhere in the mid 30s. I splurged for two REL T9is and, like you, they barely run.  The sound is massive, delicate, powerful when appropriate, and the voicing right now is eloquent. 

Like you, I don't biwire stuff. And I do think Klipsch could've done a touch better job on the connectors.  I had the same thought about making them a single input.  

Great information Don!  Yes, I find the hardest part of the surgery to be the put back—placing things just so can be tricky and when done right it looks easy. Deceptively easy. 
Parts Connexion is out of one of the Path resistors I need. That will curb my spending for a bit longer!! 

The PathAudio resistors have been ordered.  I'm close to pulling the trigger with Chris at VCap.  

I've damped the high, mid and bass ports. I've managed to use my existing Auralex Subdude II isolation pads under them--they actually fit even though measurements are deceiving.  The Klipsch platform is underneath and narrows the dimensions by ~1.5" each way so the Auralex work.  

I think with the VCaps and Paths, plus this other stuff, I'm closing in on Volti's clarity and beauty.  The CWalls already sound better. 

By the way,  I know some may disagree, but from a subjective perspective I think VCap and ClarityCap make superbly fine caps.

One more thing--  The crossover PCB is very high quality.  Huge traces, thick board, giant through holes.  

Crossovers:
I've now completed the crossover upgrade, including all caps to VCap (with exception of that 60uF linked to the woofer output) and Path Audio resistors.

Dampening:  I've also damped the tweeter, midhorn, and bass ports.  After knocking on the speakers and testing vibration, it seems Klipsch could've added some mass internally too, but since I'm not an expert I didn't want to fuss with that too much.  That said, I did put Dynamat on the internal floor of each unit. That area was ever-so resonant.  I could easily tell that the bass firmed up after placing Dynamat on the floor of each unit, as my REL subwoofers had to be readjusted. 

Sound:  Don is right--it doesn't take long to hear the improvement.  Let's see after 100 hours or so.  

Finally, a couple of notes. 

--Binding post Setup.  These are just silly.  They are fussy, inexpensive, and my Wharfedale Lintons ($1500 with stands) have way better posts. Why Klipsch? Why?  This is a $6k speaker.  I don't believe you really need to go all out here, but quality is key to a good fit and to them holding up.   I actually broke one of the bolt-posts when reattaching a nut, and I was tightening them just past hand tightened.  Terrible. So, I'm going to update the binding posts next. I really didn't want to do more, but these are just silly toys they used.  

--Crossover Tips.  As Don had indicated, you need to ensure the VCap ODAM bodies don't touch anything conductive as they are conducive too.  I started by applying high grade silicone tape (electricians use this to cover high amperage lines).  However, I got a bit nervous about anything touching so I tore it off and started over by wrapping each and every capacitor;  peace of mind.  I was more concerned about this than gluing caps and resistors down, as I have tight welds on the leads.  

--Patience.  Patience is a virtue here; none of this was difficult. Going slow will reward you.  Don't do it if you're tired, moody, hung over, having a bad day, etc.  

I'm seeing caps, resistors, dampening and binding posts as all being substantial upgrades (with the first 3 affecting sound).  Klipsch should make a signature version at $8k.  Now, I think that I see what is the difference between Klipsch and Volti. 

@roxy54 ,  I finished that today. Wow.  I should've just done it when I had the speakers open and apart.  There was very little of the Audioquest wire they used to wire them to the posts available to strip and solder.  

My soldering iron is taking a few months off!

@raindog69,  I have some photos that I could share.  I performed a similar if not identical upgrade as donsachs.  

I would say this is an intermediate level project.  I didn't find it terribly challenging on the skill level, but I did find it taxed my patience.  

There’s no question in my mind that the CW IV crossover can be easily bettered with more substantial parts. The caps and resistors are run of the mill. Careful here--I’m not saying that leads to run of the mill sound. See my post on modifying the Carver Crimson 275 amp. Bob used some decent and some dirt cheap parts in it. The coupling caps in that thing were the size of my pinky fingernail. They are inexpensive and not of good quality. Can they sound ok in a good circuit? Sure. Same thing with Klipsch CW IV.

I’m not saying folks should do this to the CW IVs. But, I will venture to say, and I’ll bet DonSachs would likely agree, many folks will question what he and I have done here while they are out buying very pricey power cords, interconnects and so on. This upgrade will best all of that in my humble opinion.

My CW IVs are about 100 hours in or so. They sound glorious. VCap ODAMs are really special caps. They almost sound like the cap is out of the system.

I wrapped the ODAM bodies with black silicone electrical tape.  Something like this:  https://www.amazon.com/Seal-Self-Fusing-Silicone-Tape/dp/B08B3JSJF3/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dchild=1&key...=

I honestly didn't glue every last piece down.  I realize vibration could play a role here, but my solder welds were very strong and I positioned things so snugly that nothing is going to move. You could easily put some hot glue or clear silicone underneath replacement parts to go the extra mile.  I believe Don did. I think I put some silicone under two of the biggest caps.  Frankly, everything fits so snugly anyhow.  

I took photos and a video of everything before I disassembled it just so I'd have a reference as to what went where. 

I agree that maybe a separate thread is required for some of the sub-subjects discussed here. 

@dbarger, I very much understand where you are coming from. You make good points about resale and the speaker being great as is.  

I would, however, note a few things about my perspective. 

First, having heard Volti loudspeakers I think the Cornwall IVs are not as good stock as some Volti models, yet they can and should be.  But, I didn't want to spend $10k on Volti units.  

Second, it is utterly apparent from opening up the CW IV that some of the build leaves stuff to be desired.   That 2 x 4 used as bracing, the wonky binding posts, the lack of internal damping,  the hanging foam insulation that appears to be kind of intentional and kind of sloppy, and so on.  

Third, I think a lot of folks' views on capacitor upgrades are influenced by the soldering element.  It seems scary to be welding on new audio gear.  It is important, though, to me to remember that such modification doesn't change the circuit in the crossover network at all.  Instead, better capacitors and resistors are allowing better signal to pass.  I, subjectively, find capacitors to have just as much if not more potential to influence sonics than power cords, cables, tube rolling, and so on--at least when we look at the cost of these things.  And, all these mods are reversible--easily.  

I also think it's important to look at the context of all of this.  My impetus for modifying the Klipsch CW IV was not to change it and it wasn't motivated by me wanting a different speaker.  To the contrary--- I had a keen sense that this speaker could be spectacular.  There's no question that Klipsch built these to a price point. Why?  Everything is built to a price point.  It's the nature manufacturing.  

So I look at this speaker as sort of like a car made by an American manufacturer.  Sometimes they build stuff to state of the art but most times they do not.  If we talk to people who run audio manufacturing or custom build businesses many say (e.g. Atmasphere or Don Sachs) that parts like VCap capacitors are truly better and special.  

Finally, you are totally right--folks should not run from CW IVs because a couple of people modified them to subjectively better heights, and talk about it on a forum.  They are wonderful speakers in their own right.  I never modify something that I dislike, just as some wouldn't buy a $1k, $5k cord or cable for a piece of gear they do not like.  I modify something where my sense is it can be made substantially better without jeopardizing the integrity of the piece.  

If someone is out there considering the CW IV, do it.  They are wonderful stock.  They DO NOT NEED to be upgraded, modified, or changed in anyway to experience wonderful sonics. 

I'm in Chicagoland and happy to host anyone that wants to hear them. Mine are, however, sporting upgrading caps and resistors in the crossovers and upgraded binding posts--if that matters. 

Way to go @schw06 !  Give us your thoughts when you can.  

PS @larbredor , I didn't swap out that massive 60uF poly cap linked to the woofer.  That would be (a) insanely pricey; and (b) very tricky to enigineer for me. I would have to fasten it off the PCB as it would be too big. 

Don Sachs was of the opinion that this cap would make less difference. I'd agree but qualified on the fact that I'm not an engineer.  I was also more after cleaning up the mids and highs on this loudspeaker.

I have been tempted to figure out the values of the inductors and swap those out for better quality too. However, I keep thinking that the speakers were voiced with those inductors and I don't have the know how or patience to learn how to measure and deal with what inductors do in crossover networks.  I understand it theoretically and that's all. 

Best of luck. I've never questioned my modification to this loudspeaker. I would do it again in a heartbeat. 

@larbredor , 

Sorry for the slow response.  I don't get updates properly on forum threads anymore.  

If you want to upgrade the crossovers on the Cornwall IV, here's your parts list: 

All of the below *2 (2 speakers): 

 

2.7uF

2.2uF

6.8uF

1.5uF

4uF

8ohm/8R resistor (to replace that sand cast guy)

I used VCap ODAM caps and Path Audio resistors. Don Sachs and I both used the same parts I think and we both landed on 10w Path Audio resistors. 

I also changed the binding posts on the rear as I found the previous ones fickle. 

Let me know if you have questions, etc.