The 18w Luxman integrated is sounding pretty fantastic and generating
excellent bass, well-controlled and accurate, with no strain. I still
don’t think a 2A3 SET is right for this speaker in my room, but I
question the need for more than 15-20 quality watts, and even fewer in a
smaller room. There's a big difference between SET and P-P in that a P-P amp can use about 90% of its power where an SET can use about 20-25% before distortion is a problem. I like the system to be a bit more relaxed so my tendency is to use an amp with a bit more power still. |
Revisiting some of my amps with the CW4, after further tweaking speaker positioning and placing them on some Herbie’s gliders, I have to agree with @ozzy62 : high-quality lower wattage can drive them beautifully. The 18w Luxman integrated is sounding pretty fantastic and generating excellent bass, well-controlled and accurate, with no strain. I still don’t think a 2A3 SET is right for this speaker in my room, but I question the need for more than 15-20 quality watts, and even fewer in a smaller room.
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JC, if you have any dumbbells lying around,I would start with 3 sets of 20 twice a day. JK Definitely pay the driver to get these inside lol
Also, word of advice. Before ordering anything by mail, if there is a possibility of utilizing the return policy, consider the ergonomics of returning said item before making the order. |
Mine were delivered freight, strapped to a pallet. Usually the driver will do something like that for a tip. Worse case scenario is he can drop them at the bottom of the driveway and you can bring each box up one at a time with a hand truck. |
Thanks @ozzy62
Did you pickup locally or have delivered via freight?
I am curious as to the freight delivery experience. I live in a single family home with a driveway that has a slight incline leading to the front porch.
Can you negotiate (i.e., tip the driver) to bring the speakers all the way to the front porch? I can manage from there. |
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I am considering the Cornwall IV but a question regarding price. Are there any experiences in getting a discount from online retailers since there's no local dealer?
I would prefer having the option to return although based on this thread and other research that would be a very low outcome. I see Music Direct and Crutchfield as well known online dealers but not sure of their willingness to discount since they do have to factor in the potential for a return. |
I disagree. I am powering them with 14 watts in my 26 x 15 room with ease. I don’t seem to run out of headroom at any volume level I care to listen. I think it’s more about the quality of the watts and having an amp with some good iron.
Oz
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@wrm57 @bjesien Yes. You need some power for that speaker and more than just 20 watts (but it has to have clean power; that 1st watt in particular) if you really want to hear what it can do.
Using a lower power SET on this speaker is a waste of time. While it is pretty efficient, to use a 4-watt SET you'll need efficiency well over 100dB, since with any SET you really don't want to ask more than 20-25% of full power. IME you need at least 60 watts on a speaker like this in most rooms. So 18 watts really won't do it either. Consequently its no surprise that the Plinius did so well, since you'll never get close to running it out of gas.
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I can throw the O/93 over my shoulder and run them up and down the impedance curve all day. The CW4 less detailed spec sheet says 8 Ohm compatible. Do they need 20 wpc to get that woofer to dance? |
@ozzy62 I've been looking at that amp recently online. Looks very promising! Great to know it works well. Please keep us updated as you get to know it better.
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Another amp that I can highly recommend is the Aric Audio Super KT88/120 SE. I just took delivery of one last week and am currently putting it through it’s paces. This one pairs quite nicely with the CW IV.
Oz
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That SA-103 is a great amp. I had one years ago driving a pair of Piega speakers.
Oz
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So, for those interested, here are the results in brief. Of course, this is all my room, which is 600+ sq/feet with hallways that fall back from the front wall corners, which means little bass reinforcement. Sources were all vinyl though tube phono stages.
The 2a3 amp simply does not have enough juice to energize the room properly without straining. Would that it were otherwise because I am fond of it and have a wide collections of tubes for it. This amp is an integrated with stepped attenuation, no preamp. At low volume, though, it does all the SET magic, with palpable images and lovely tone. The LX-380 integrated handles the speakers much better, its 18w plenty for unconstrained dynamics. Tonal colors were not a match for the 2A3, with some comparative homogenization of horn voices on octet jazz and classical. Bass was just OK. As a caveat, this amp is new--maybe 100 hours on it; sometimes output transformers can take a while really to come into their own, in my experience. Definitely a good overall sound, though, whether using its internal preamp or a separate (VAC Phi Beta). The best of this session, my friend and I agreed, was unexpected: my highly modified Plinius SA-103 (125 Class A solid state) coupled with the VAC preamp. It controlled the woofers and organized the soundstage in ways that the tube amps could not and delivered a measure of SET-like tonality and richness, likely from the preamp. Dang.
I’m rethinking my approach the CW4. For me a 300B probably would not suffice, as much as I’d like to keep the SET sound. Maybe an 211, 805, or 845 SET. Or I might just surrender to transistors. Naturally, YMMV.
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On the low-watt topic, I’ve been running my new CW intermittently with an old Moth S2a3 (modded with an external PS). Its 3.5w with Electra-Print iron sound quite good on these speakers, way better than on the Galante Silverdales (99 db) I’d been using in my office system. The Luxman LX-380 snagged for the occasion (18w PP 6L6GC) has more drive and dynamic capability, especially at higher SPLs, but the 2A3 is a special tube and sounds very engaging with the CW4.
An audiophile buddy is coming over this morning for the first time since Covid to listen to all my pandemic impulse buys (long list). We’ll sort through the various amps and topologies in the house to see what works best with the CW4. They’re finally broken in and dialed in and sounding really pretty amazing.
@dbarger, I’ve been itching to try a 300B on these, myself. Do let us know how the LM sounds.
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For sure dbarger tell us about the amps that you’ve tried the CW4 with and about the differences you heard. It sounds like you’ve already tried several with more to come. TIA |
@dbarger
I'm looking forward to hearing your feedback on the new amps. I just picked up a Triode Lab 2a3 amp, just waiting for it to arrive.
Having a lot of flexibility with amps was one of the things that led me to the Klipsch heritage speakers, ultimately the Cornwall IV.
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Enjoying these more every day! They continue to surprise me with their revealing nature. They sound great with high power amps, and low power amps.
I did add Herbie's Huge Sliders, and I think they tightened up the bass a bit and increased focus. I did not know what to expect since I have seen a post saying they reduced the bass, but not for me. No downside, all upside.
I do have some nice amps, but since these are so easy to drive, I ordered nice Line Magnetic LM 210IA 300B amp, and a Decware SE84UFO amp. Kind of looking forward to seeing what a 2 watt amp does on these..
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While I can't add anything to Cornwall discussion, I find it interesting there seem to be little or no complaints about timbre issues. It appears Klipsch has done some work here?
I purchased used late 80's era Klipschorns about five years ago, my initial impression was really amazing dynamics, particularly micro, and same with resolving powers. Tonal balance just a bit off, mids too dominant. Much less impressed with timbre, naturalness not this speakers calling card. In a relatively short period of time I became convinced I couldn't live with these speakers, timbre so far from natural. This coming from Merlin VSM-MM, much modified with Duelund VSF copper foil caps in every possible position and so much more. Anyway, timbre was probably the greatest asset of the Merlins, so lack of this in Klipschorns was brought out in great relief.
So, to cut to the chase, five years later, Klipschorns modified to the point where only bass cabinet stock. These are the last speakers I will ever own. No other speakers I've experienced replicates the sense of live performers in room like Klipschorns, and I presume others in the Heritage line. Based on the above comments sounds like Klipsch has certainly improved upon timbre issues in earlier iterations of Heritage series.
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If the new ones are anything like the older ones Id say pull the trigger but if not do what I did and get a vintage pair.
As far as soundstage size and dynamics, they are the same. Anything else, they are a whole new ball game. |
I have a late '80s pair of Cornwalls and love them. I saw where someone wrote and acquired taste. I believe that to be true however Ive never not liked the higher end Klipsch sound. In high school I saved ups my money and bought a brand new pair of Hearesys. I waited almost 15 years before I could afford Klipschorns and when I did although I loved the bass they were a bit much. Last year I took the plunge again since I found a pair of Cornwalls in Dallas. Wow did this hit the proverbial spot! The warmth and accuracy of the bass (15 inch woofer) and mid and tweeter horns make these super accurate. The depth of stage is outstanding and imaging superb! Just my thoughts. I play almost exclusively analog records and tape. I use high-end sources too so as not to break the chain. If the new ones are anything like the older ones Id say pull the trigger but if not do what I did and get a vintage pair. Paul did some amazing work on these speakers and if they were taken care of could last a lifetime. |
My room is 15 x 22 x 9. C4’s are on short wall, out 36” from front wall and in 33” from side walls when measured from center of grilles. They are toed in to cross axis’s about two feet in front of me. I sit about two-thirds into the room from the front wall.
I don’t hear much in the way of depth but left to right imaging is pretty good. Not pinpoint but not bad.
Frequency response is stellar. Very smooth and only getting a bit rough in the bottom couple of octaves. This was smoothed out and firmed up with the addition of a couple of decent old Velodyne subs.
As I stated in a previous post, I have had the feeling these speakers may be too revealing of less than superior recordings. Well, after giving up on my idea of raising the front of the speakers, Heresy style, the over-revealing glare has largely dissipated. I think my fairly extreme toe-in also helps.
I do miss the airiness and three dimensionally you can get with some other speakers but I do love the slam and the clarity (with good recordings). Ultra low distortion is nice too. No fuzzies and no grit.
Really my main issues are these: price, footprint, height and rather unforgiving nature. But if you can live with the downside, the upside is huge. |
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@dbarger thanks for the info! OMG these are the size of a dishwasher right?? Can you compare them to the O/93 with room loading? The O/93 have the ability to slam dynamically and with 30hz bass that can flap your pant legs. Do these seem to dig as deep? Sub needed? Has anyone heard them with movies?
Thanks all, appreciate more people stepping up! |
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it is nice that speakers like these exist, and are (relatively) affordable
each special in its own way, spectacular in how it pushes the right buttons of certain listeners
in an enthusiast undertaking and community, excellence is the key, mediocrity and commoditization are the enemy... excellence creates interest, passion, and most importantly, brings more people in and captivates them
spatials orangutans and c4’s all rather diametrically opposed in how they radiate sound, fill up a space with music, and thus appeal to different peoples sense of what music should sound like based on their own frames of reference and past experiences |
I agree with @wrm57 about the Spatials. Very good speakers and do a lot of things right. But at the end of the day, they don't engage the listener like the CW IV does. At least not this listener.
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I think that I'm in the same boat as many. The CW4s are huge and require a different level of commitment if they don't work out for you. I'm running some Rethm's right now, along with a Rel 212SE. Great sound, but not the large ballsy, wall-of-sound I'm looking for. The fact that these can do the usual audiophile tricks but also really rock is what's caught my attention. I was also considering some OBs, either Pure Audio Project or Spatials, but don't think they'd energize the room the way I want. |
I have new CW4 and my experience is much like dbarger’s. Mine have around 75 hours of playing time on them and they have changed dramatically from day one. The bass, which was initially anemic, has filled in; the highs, strident at first, have smoothed out. Despite these initial sonic issues they were always expressive and dynamic; now they are becoming remarkably coherent and musically satisfying.
I’ve run the CW4 with a range of high-quality amps: 3.5w 2A3 SET, 18w PP 6l6GC, 36w PP EL84; 120w class A solid state. They sound very good--and very different--with all of them. They image and soundstage and do the audiophile stuff surprisingly well. But their quality of dynamic presence and musicality, like a live performance, is what really hooks me. My wife, too, despite their girth.
I bought them fully expecting to return them--even got a freight shipping quote in advance. My main system is mature and finely tuned--a hard lineup to break into. One week in, I do not think they’ll go back. I even cleared out my stereo closet so I can tuck them away when I want to listen to my other speakers, which might never happen. Little pads for furniture make it easy to slide them on hardwood flooring.
As for a comparison with Spatials, I can add that I bought X5 last month and returned them after 2 weeks. To me there’s no comparison in coherence and lifelike musicality. Clayton’s speakers are intelligently thought-out and well-designed, likely an endgame choice for many. But the CW4 make me want to keep listening whereas the X5, not so much.
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it would be very cool to have an even handed, objective comparison of devore 0-96 vs cw4 vs top spatial like x5 or even m3... hard to make happen i suspect... |
@ozzy62; @dbarger, thanks for your informative, honest posts on these most incredible speakers. You can put me squarely in your camp with these as well. I purchased a pair in American Walnut, and run them with my restored Marantz 2385. I have a Technics 1200g w/Ortofon 2M Black. The sound was actually fairly smooth right out of the box, and they continue to improve the more I listen. They are, as everyone knows, pretty big, but so is their soundstage. Count me as another satisfied customer. |
Thanks @dbarger for the report. Some here have been clamoring for a Devore vs Cornwall comparison.
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I got my pair of Cornwall IV's last week, and am still breaking them in, but very impressed. I have been a long time Devore fan, with dabbling with various Harbeths, and others. I like to swap gear in and out, including speakers. That cannot be easily done with these, so these require a more serious commitment than usual. Even my largish o/93's were movable. So these feel a bit like a marriage, rather than my usual gear swapping.
Out of the box, they sounded a bit stiff, very slightly harsh, and a bit constrained. Imaging was not the best. The tonality was not super accurate. Even with these observations, there was something about them I really liked, and even had they not improved with run-in, I would have felt them worth the price.
I set about running them in, and they improved fairly rapidly, and became dramatically better. They sound pretty natural now. Imaging, depth, detail, and transparency, are all excellent. They are a bit addicting. I have zero desire to move the Devores or Revels back in. The bass has thankfully improved immensely.
I estimate I only have about 100 hrs on them. Like many, I bought them with a return option. But there is no way they are going back.
I have run them with several quality tube amps and a couple solid state amps. The Cornwalls very clearly identify the characteristics of each amp, yet they sound great on all of them. There is no sense of the horn origin of the sound. They just sound like excellent speakers that happen to also have great dynamics and huge scale.
Mine are in the Cherry finish, and look gorgeous. They are HUGE, so pretty big in my 16 x 14 room, but they work very well nonetheless.
For those considering these, add me to the many who say these are the real deal. Superb. |
I am guessing, I might be the oldest Klipsch Heritage ( both in age and product familiarity ) follower, guru, user / owner, modifier, tweaker, out of all who is posting here ( even Mahlman ). I do believe to a large extent, the speaker needs to be matched to the room. I do not like the impression that I am " inside the horn ", as Mahlman and many of his devotees, taut highly. I am not suggesting that he and his clan are wrong, or that I am right, but it is an individual " taste ", or " flavor ", preferred. If I had a large enough room ( where I can be at a greater distance from the speakers ), I would own a pair of 3 way KPT Jubilee, and this is my personal take on it. I know of many on the Klipsch Forum who have these, and if they are happy with them in their smallish rooms.....well....that is fine........ The CW ( all of the 4 iterations ) can be easily used in a smaller room ( ex : 9 X 12 ), and can be listened to in the nearfield ( all ime ). Like anything, the room must be tuned / dealt with, when dealing with unwanted reflections and such. Cables and equipment....the higher the quality, the more they will give you. An older NAD 3020 amp ( recapped and gone over ), with 18 gauge zip cord will sound amazingly good. However, driven with a nice tube amp ( for specific reasons, I do not prefer tubes, or a Pass XA25 ( just as an easy example ), using the same wire, there will be an upgrade in overall SQ. Now, add better cables, and you just get.....MORE. Unless someone has had experience with better cables, and gear ( and I am referring to certain people here ), they will not know how much more they can get. Keep in mind....room acoustics, and speaker / listener orientation, has a huge impact on noticing and hearing these " more " sound qualities I, and many of us, speak of. Another thing.....I am the biggest advocate of eliminating ringing ( metal horns ) and resonance ( polymer horns ), and yes woofer frames and such, and the poster who did his CW IVs, knows the improvements he has received. They all have the imperfections ( at this and most price points ) and should be dealt with. We all are very specific, individual listeners, and the truth, after all...is enjoyment........This is all, for now. Be well ! |
Placement of the Cornwall was, for me, surprisingly more difficult than I expected. At first, the sound was so big and beautiful that I thought they were easily positioned. I was wrong.
I literally had to get out the tape measure to ensure they were equidistant. That resulted in a big improvement--like a new, better component.
I find them more sensitive to equal/precise placement than a specific distance from the side/front wall or toe in. Those things still matter though.
At some point I'll re-evaluate my positioning to ensure I'm right on and to satisfy curiosity. For now, I hate to change them because things sound so comprehensive, large, and dialed in.
My room is about 15.5' wide. I have them about 20" from the side walls.
I only have them 8-18" from the front wall. They are towed in so that's why one corner is 8" from the wall and the other longer. |
Just because Klipsch speakers are voiced with low-fi cables doesn't mean that everyone should follow suit and use the same thing, or that expensive cables are BS. Klipsch is not marketing exclusively to a high end niche. The designer needs to make sure that the speakers sound good for a wide range of users and not just for tweaky audiophiles who treat cables as if they're another component. So whatever Roy Delgado uses in the factory doesn't really have any bearing on what listeners prefer at home. |
@jayrossi13 Are you on a suspended floor with joists, etc? The reason I ask is, I've had my new CW for a few days, situated on a concrete slab (covered by wood flooring glued down), and I have not been experiencing the bass boom and distortion you've mentioned. Perhaps the woofers' cajones haven't dropped yet, though. lol.
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Fun fact...dug out some old cables I have on hand just to check my ears. They all sound different...sorry Audioholics 😔 Reminded me why I love MIT products...just so much more realistic sounding on every level! My REV MIT loom delivers better tone, articulation, clarity, dynamics, bass definition and extended airy highs. Everything sounds muffled and constricted comparatively! The MIT cables delivered most of the improvements sought by other audiophiles via extensive and costly tweaks. Get the room and cables right first...then tweak 👂
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Thanks. Sounds interesting, but that price is a tough pill to swallow....lol
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@ozzy62 After installing the speaker bars, I immediately noticed the midrange was clearer, voices more 3D. One thing I noticed, however, was that bass seemed like it had diminished significantly--that was until I turned on my subwoofer. I’m not sure why, but cleaning up the bass distortion on my main speakers made the subwoofer’s contribution sound so much better than before. The bass is tighter, cleaner and plentiful. I have the Size 1 seismic bars and have them run from front to back. You can see them in my virtual system here on Agon. Prior to the seismic bars, I had the following isolation pads that I got on Amazon. I liked the sound one these pads better than on the floor. I learned of these through a review for the Volti Razz. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075MMT68C/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 |
@jayrossi13
What changes did you hear with the seismic bars? |
My CW IV are 4’ from the sidewalls, the tweeter is 32" from the back wall and my ears are 9’8’ from the tweeters. I have a slight toe-in as well.
I’ve also done a couple tweaks:
1) I’ve placed dynamat on the horns and woofer cage.
2) I placed the speakers on Townshend seismic bars.
Finally, I use a subwoofer. |
I have my Cornwall IV’s about 3 1/2 feet from front wall, toed in aiming just passed my ears 👂. I sit approximately 10ft 8” away. Soundstage is huge and immersive on well recorded material! |
haha, ok, thanks for sharing....cheers! |
Not me. Every day is Friday when your retired...13 years running. |
@jjss49
Too much.......... |
LOL, you must be really having a bad day, riaa. Cheer up, dude. It's Friday, life's good! |
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