Is Rap a valid musical form?

I remember Gang Starr from waaaaaay back - will look into it thanks

Even farting is a valid musical form for those who like it

@sonic79 Run the Jewels, one of their best tracks feature DJ Premier the other half of Gang Starr. East coast rap is what I grew up on. 

I’ll throw another name out there that’s been intertwined with rap music. Kamasi Washington, jazz saxophonist. You guys going down the rabbit hole now. Lol 

@ghasley Yes sir. Guru paved the way for these guys. 

My personal favorite rap/hip hop group is Run The Jewels. Very melodic compared to most rap, and the lyrics are topical.

RIP Guru….Robert Glasper seems to blur the lines as well.

...as in most items of art & creativity, different forms and fusions arise....

Jazzmatazz to the search box, once I finished 'girding my loins' for our snow event....

"Everybody must get Snowed....."  (Sorry Bob, had to go there...*L*)

For the ones who are open minded please check out Guru. He was part of a two member rap group called Gang Starr. He went on his own and is the first to fuse rap music with jazz. His first album Jazzmatazz Vol. 1 had jazz greats like Roy Ayers and Donald Byrd. 

@jssmith that song sounds like a worse version of Evanescence in every way possible imo

@northman + 1

@asvjerry + 1 "No way today, that trouble comin' everyday..." - FZ

Note to our hosts: I'm not cursing per se, nor do I see myself as singling out any viewer/poster/'interested party' for a drubbing in print....I'm just generally annoyed about the whole issue and general perceptions of the matter at hand.

The rest of it is just the daily grind of the times...just like yours... ;) 

Yours, asvjerry

@crouse99  I've like that since 1st exposure, like the beat and enjoy the expression. *G* 
And mama breaking the mood @ the end is a *L*

@jssmith , the best answer I can have is:

If you don't like what it is, you can Always 'roll your own'.....I've always seen rap as an 'update' on rhythmic poetry.  G.S. Heron in the 21st Century, and more of it.

Can't say that I'm down with all of the bits....but I also lack the Black experience of life in the US when most (along with an awful lot of other races....
-inc. white, which I think is BS when related to the bulk of 'us'- 
....that end up in cr*p jobs and live in cr*p housing) deal with on a daily basis.

I shouldn't have to fill in the blanks for you on that....😒

BTW...As a youngster in SoCA, I could see the smoke from the Compton fires, and hear the sirens.

To quote F. Zappa:
"I'm not black, but sometimes I wish I wasn't white..."

I look at the back of my hands....that's not white....It's Called Beige.

Albinos are white, and not outdoors a lot....if you suffer from vitiligo, you're patchy like a calico cat....not very pretty, and you'd rather stay indoors because people stare at you More.

There is only one race, and it's called Human.  (Note I've not mentioned  'humane'.)

Color is genetic, and is unavoidable...and merely serves to divide us,, for whatever frelling rationale we seek to apply.

YES, It's an Art/Music, and certainly VALID, regardless of the message.

Why don't y'all grow up.....?😒🤨

Obviously rap is music, as every musicologist (and almost anyone under forty) will agree. It's just silly to say otherwise. The songs have more than just rhythm; they have melody and harmony, although that's not usually their focus. Further, rapping itself deploys pitch. Indeed, human speech is a pitched language. (Ever visited Scotland?) And as anyone who has ever actually listened to rap knows, much rap is keenly aware of previous generations of music. MF Doom, for example, is known for his "chopped and screwed" jazz standards. In fact, there's an entire genre known as jazz rap. There is no argument to be had here; maybe there was thirty years ago but those days are gone forever, over a long time ago. (Steely Dan riffs appear in rap songs.)

A more interesting question to me is why so many folks out here are so narrow-minded in what they call "music." In another thread, many argue that the only "real" music is played on unamplified acoustic instruments. Say what? 

Why wouldn't we want to as inclusive as possible? Why not welcome all kinds of tastes to this board? Javanese gamelan? Sure! African drumming? Heck yeah. Noise metal? Sure. Why not open ourselves up a bit? 

Take a listen to “Come Home” off of Anderson Paak’s Ventura album. If you don’t hear echoes of early 1970’s Philly soul evolved then so be it. Is it music, absolutely, 

Not all rap is enjoyable…nor is all rap exhibiting Juliard skills but that could be said for every genre right?

Rhythm And Poetry, more on the literary side.

@wongpd

Not something I’d listen to, but much better. It seems my main problem is rap’s monotone talking. His singing isn’t impressive either. The chick on See You Again sounds decent. Get rid of the programmed synthetic bass, add some real or even programmed Superior Drummer to it, and put Cammie Gilbert’s vocals (check out the song The Banished Heart by Oceans of Slumber) over some of these songs and I’d probably listen.

@crouse99 + 100

Meanwhile...I just got a memo from my spirit world....

...and mama knows best...*s* ;)

*sigh*
I'd thought this question got settled out awhile back....as noted even in this forum.

The marketplace spoke, and with conviction.  You may not like 'contemporary sounds' of all/most/or none, but you're also free to ignore them....

...pull the sheets up, maybe they'll go away someday...*L* ;)

I am not sure if those  two words can even be used in the same sentence. 

I grew up on Kool Moe Dee, Rob base, OutKast, NAS, 2PAC, Biggie, Snoop, Dre and the list goes on. You could probably guess my age lol. 

Throw on Kids See Ghosts for a great Sonic display on your system. Also some classic Eric B and Rakim or De La Soul as another poster put out there.

@jssmith check out Tyler the Creator's latest two albums Flowerboy and Igor, they might be more up your alley with how you described stairway.  He produced both albums entirely and is easily a top 10 most important artist this past decade

I take back what I said about Leenalchi. Heard the other cuts on their album.

Kind of like traditional Korean chanting/Rap. Blah. But Tiger is Coming is brilliant.

@jonwatches1 

I gave All Falls Down a listen. My impression. OK, for a standard radio song, but still a monotonous four-chord progression. Now, I don't have a problem with some songs' musical simplicity. The Stones made a long career out of it and pretty much every pop song today, and most from the last 35 years, only seem to know one time signature and three chords. At least it isn't the "Boots and Cats" rhythm of so many hip-hop songs I was forced to endure in the past. But the talking (rapping) over the music is distracting. The background singing is decent though. I think the main problem is the talking is too fast and staccato, which is common in rap. Barry White could talk through a song and make it sound great.

So I figured I'd give a woman a shot and listened to Missy Elliot's The Rain. The same. A monotonous three-chord progression. At least the rapping was slower, so it didn't overpower everything else like the West song did.

One thing I noticed in the prevalence of YouTube music reactors is all the ones with a background in rap analyze rock songs from a lyrical perspective and mostly ignore the instruments. I couldn't tell you what the lyrics are to most of my favorite songs and I don't really care. I still don't know half of what Robert Plant is talking about in Stairway to Heaven, and it's my favorite song. It just isn't important. The vocals are just another instrument. I surmise that since rap's focus is the lyrics and it contains so little musical complexity, these people can't relate to the opposite. And I suppose that goes for me too. 

Eminem raps with some attention to pitch although, so far, is boring.

Can’t generalize, but, so far, the Rap I have heard is pretty much the same.

It does seem that, for me, ones who pay close attention to pure musical/tonal elements are most interesting.

Only one CD available for $34 that ships from Korea. Leenalchi. I bought it.

And there is something on EBay for $134. “The Tiger is Coming”. On YouTube.

Fantastic! Check it out…

There is one other video of them that is more pure Rap but still very interesting.

So far, I own two Rap albums. The Kendrick LP and Drake CD. The former is super interesting even with many Rap conventions. The latter is ok but does not have the creativeness of Kendrick. I imagine the Beastie Boys incorporate elements of Hard Rock of which I am not a fan. Will check out Eminem. 

I remember a Duane Allman interview in which he said there is no bad music.  I agree.  There is music I like and music I don't like but I never presume to say any music is bad just because I don't like it. 

@jonwatches1 ​​​​@krimsonhead I listened to those songs and enjoyed them.  Little tough to listen to lady singer.  The band and rap were integrated well.  PS KC fan here.  Post metal with detail.

Back in the day it was fun to follow all the introduction of synthethizers into fusion, prog rock ambient and others as technology became mainstream. 

Wow, wow! LEENALCHI

K-Pop?! I can’t remember hearing anything more musically sophisticated and fascinating. Talk about counterpoint!  Two bass guitars a drummer and 4 singers “speaking” on pitch. Yea, Talking Heads, Bjork and the B-52s dream of what they could become. I can’t get them out of my head. Hope they have LPs. If not I absolutely will buy whatever they have recorded! 
So far, Kendrick Lamar “To Pimp a Butterfly” is the most engaging Rap I have heard. But Leenalchi is amazing. For sure, an evolution of Rap.

@krimsonhead   I listened to Leenalchi and it’s just fxcking bonkers in the best way possible. Love child of The Talking Heads, Bjork and B-52’s, and totally original. Great party music, and something I would never have heard of without your recommendation.  Thanks!

Very happy to see this thread has not devolved.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_hip_hop

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Tongues

The Native Tongues is where my heart lies. If you are ever lucky enough to see De La Soul in person do. They will get the whole venue dancing and singing. I was very very lucky to get to see Tribe open for the Beastie Boys at MSG. Paul's Boutique is a masterpiece. 

@simonmoon 

Sure it’s a valid musical form. Not a very good one, for me, but still valid.

My thoughts as well. I have many musical interests, but rap ain't one of them.

BTW Simon, I just realized we both participate on the Talk Classical Music forum as well. And here I thought I was the only 'goner' on that forum. 👍

I’ll say, of course Rap/Hip-Hop is music, because what is "music" anyway? Well, ultimately, whatever I believe it is. It’s interesting for me to see someone else's "list", or hear them discuss their choices for "music". They do not have to validate my choices.

Wow the responses are comic.

"There is only is or is not. Since it exists it IS."

Depends what the definition of "is" is.

It is. It seems like a lot of the discussion is premised on taste and subjectivity, versus facts. To discount hip hop as “not music” would be ignoring the facts that at any given moment, hip hop artists or music inspired by hip hop culture take up a number of Top 10 spots in Billboard Top 100 (just looking at the latest and it’s 4) or Grammy noms and wins, that hip hop music does in fact have a mix of melody x harmony x rhythm (not all, obviously, but the same can be said about many artists and songs from other genres), and in general, like any popular music genre, it’s become a dominant force in popular culture today — influencing everything from style to entertainment (think what Kanye did for Adidas or Gap; or 88Rising, a Korean hip hop label, doing all the music for Marvel’s Shang Chi, just to name a few). Not to mention all the academic definitions of hip hop including the word “music” to describe it.

Not sure personal preference should be coloring how rap/hip hop, or any music genre, is being objectively defined.

To add to some of the recommendations for those who maybe haven’t found hip hop they like… Also try Kanye West’s album ‘My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy’. Try starting with Runaway, Dark Fantasy, All of the Lights, and Power. Expertly produced, a convergence of different music genres, tons of rhythm, melody and harmony. One of the all time greats over the last 10+ years.

There is no "valid" or "invalid". There is only is or is not. Since it exists it IS.

Whatever people think is music is music. But to me, rap is just a bunch of bad poetry with nothing of what I'd personally call music backing it.

I sampled that Kendrick Lamar. Yep, same old monotonous programmed bass lines and percussion, unimaginative moronic lyrics, almost no instruments and what there are could be played by a beginner-to-intermediate player, and no vocal ability. These Walls is the closest song to what I consider music, sounding similar to something out of the late 70's. If this is what Julliard thinks is talent it seems like they've dumbed down like the rest of post-secondary education.

They Reminisce Over You by Pete Rock and CL Smooth

T.R.OY.  this is a song that is every bit the storytelling tour de force that Hurricane by Bob Dylan is, about his good friend Troy and the terrible circumstances by which Troy lived and died. If a song made entirely in a synthesizer or a computer is musically valid then I don't know what isn't musically valid. But rap and hip hop when it's not the most commercialized crap just like all the other genres, is folk music.

@daledeee1 give a listen to “Jungle Jay” by Olu Dara, the jazz musician (from his album, “In the World”

The vocalist is his son, Nas. May not be your cup of tea, but I think an interesting example of where genres can go, and circle back on their origins. And it’s just about a perfect example of the singular flow of Nas, who toys with rhyme, rhythm and meter and makes it look effortless. Four minutes of your life. Let us know what you think

@bubba_buoy +100

@simonmoon on YouTube, check out Rick Beato’s channel (appreciate it’s widely known). Real musician. He does, among other things, a series called “What makes this song great?” What’s interesting is his analysis of the underlying musical theory in songs written by people who don’t know anything about musical theory, but nevertheless exhibit such in their music. Check out Ep 105, Seal, Kiss from a Rose

And you might like ixi music on YouTube, as well - she’s a real musician with an gift for exegesis who does breakdowns of NIN songs. Check out her breakdown of “March of the Pigs”, or, longer form, “Closer”. The “March of the Pigs” breakdown is great, because to most people that song sounds like a bomb going off - but there is intent behind every note. Trent Reznor is, of course, a trained musician who actively employs theory in his composition. The Closer breakdown is engrossing

I’d love to know what you think! (You may think it’s all nonsense, but I am thinking of the aspects of music you’ve described as interesting to you)

Nas "One Mic". Public Enemy "Brothers Gonna Work It Out" Outkast "Rosa Parks", Eric B and Rakim "Don't Sweat The Technique", Gang Starr "Take It Personal", Eminem "White America", Biggie "Everyday Struggle". Tupac "Brenda Got A Baby" And on and on.

They're as lyrically significant as The Times They Are A-changin' or AMY other protest song you've ever heard.

@mglik  - thanks for taking a listen, glad you saw something in the songs, even if not your cup of tea

@krimsonhead  - thanks! I will give it a listen and let you know what I think

@mglik   - btw, what are some things you’d have people listen to that might be new to them? ( @simonmoon - would be great to know the same from you. An interesting side discussion based on your thoughts would be “great singers with ok voices”, of which I think there are a lot of examples - but maybe not in genres you like)

@brandonhall +1. 

Have a great day, everyone

How one feels about rap/hip hop is a matter of TASTE! If you think White Zinfandel sucks and tastes like crap ....is it INVALID as wine? If it's not wine, what is it? Like it or don't. But don't question it's validity.

It is beyond the pale to imply, or say, that it isn't valid as music. I think AL poetry should rhyme, but I'd never call a non-rhyming poem invalid. Who am I (or you) to say otherwise. 

I think avant-garde jazz is as unlistenable. Still valid. Who am I to say otherwise? 

This is a huge, ugly, cultural blindspot to question the validity of any creative endeavor simply because you don't like it. You don't know hip hop well enough to judge it's validity if you honestly think it lack melody. Dig a little deeper. READ ALONG WITH THE LYRICS AS THEY GO. It downright literary. Major major blindspot. 

Y’all should watch the blue note doc “beyond the notes” it’s absurd and downright ignorant to say rap is not music. Dear lord.