Is Rap a valid musical form?

I guess one can say that the world of Hip Hop and Rap is yet another true American art form. 

Have checked out the Beastie Boys before. The problem I have with them and most other older Rap is that I find it monotonous. It seems like Rap has evolved into a more complex and engaging experience. Not to overly generalize.

I did start to watch the Rick Rubin doc. I think that I may gain insight into a way to reconcile the difference and relative value of Rap vis a vis Pop, etc.

"It's grossly inaccurate to suggest that Rap incorporates rhythm alone. Anyone who asserts that hasn't the slightest idea what they are talking about.

It is true only of some Rap."

Think this is why I seem to be interested in more contemporary Rap which incorporates musical themes and motifs. To me, then it becomes a more complete musical experience.

My first idea of a title for this thread was “Enjoying and engaged by Rap”.

I only changed to “Is Rap a Valid Musical Form?” in order to elicit responses.

However, I do feel that my OP clearly explained the former.

I do appreciate the song/ artist suggestions. True that there is nothing better than discovering new music. That is my quest in delving into the world of Hip Hop.

I listened to the first list starting with Kanye. As some mentioned, these selections are almost all incorporating musical themes with the rap. Very interesting to hear the interplay that reminds me of fugues. With clear intent to weave a soundscape.

These tracks also focus on regular, matter of fact subjects and are not merely angry. There are clear stories there. I would listen to more of these artists and will listen to the second list above.

BTW-I looked up the difference between Rap and Hip Hop. Rap is the music and Hip Hop is the culture and world

This list turned out to be not very "musical" and therefore not very listenable.

• Slick Rick - The Great Adventures Of Slick Rick (Children's Story is a masterpiece)
• NAS - Illmatic
• Outkast - Stankonia
• Beastie Boys - Licensed to Ill

The Kanye, Jay Z, Ludicrus, Missy Eliot, etc are full of musical themes and counterpoint rap that make them interesting.

"Without sounding like I am beating a dead horse, though, my only complaint with rap is of a musical nature. For the most part, it is too simple, poorly played, repetitive, musically trite for my tastes.

The problem I see, for my tastes, is if there ever was a subgenre of rap that fit my criteria for the music I like (high level of musicianship, complexity, nonrepetitive, deep and broad emotional and intellectual content, it would probably not even be identifiable as rap any longer."

No longer identifiable as Rap any longer? I do think the genre is pretty broad. Some cuts are actually sung!

Wow, wow! LEENALCHI

K-Pop?! I can’t remember hearing anything more musically sophisticated and fascinating. Talk about counterpoint!  Two bass guitars a drummer and 4 singers “speaking” on pitch. Yea, Talking Heads, Bjork and the B-52s dream of what they could become. I can’t get them out of my head. Hope they have LPs. If not I absolutely will buy whatever they have recorded! 
So far, Kendrick Lamar “To Pimp a Butterfly” is the most engaging Rap I have heard. But Leenalchi is amazing. For sure, an evolution of Rap.

Only one CD available for $34 that ships from Korea. Leenalchi. I bought it.

And there is something on EBay for $134. “The Tiger is Coming”. On YouTube.

Fantastic! Check it out…

There is one other video of them that is more pure Rap but still very interesting.

So far, I own two Rap albums. The Kendrick LP and Drake CD. The former is super interesting even with many Rap conventions. The latter is ok but does not have the creativeness of Kendrick. I imagine the Beastie Boys incorporate elements of Hard Rock of which I am not a fan. Will check out Eminem. 

Eminem raps with some attention to pitch although, so far, is boring.

Can’t generalize, but, so far, the Rap I have heard is pretty much the same.

It does seem that, for me, ones who pay close attention to pure musical/tonal elements are most interesting.

I take back what I said about Leenalchi. Heard the other cuts on their album.

Kind of like traditional Korean chanting/Rap. Blah. But Tiger is Coming is brilliant.

Just checked 2Pac… disappointed. I see that he sold 75 million records worldwide.

Surely, can’t really hear what an artist is like only hearing a few minutes of 1 song.

But in checking out recommendations of ones to hear, none have the creative progression of Kendrick Lamar. I understand that the world of Hip Hop is vast.

Please give me a list of some artist/song suggestions that are truly sophisticated and interesting. The monotone raps just don’t do it for me. Especially when they don’t particularly pay attention to the musical threads. That is, incorporating the rap into the overall soundscape.

asvjerry

Appreciate your post but have no idea of what you are saying.

Can you reiterate in more a more understandable manner?

I am sincerely interested in what you are trying to say.

Hey Jerry!

Is your coded verbiage the way you post on other threads?

Do you have any intention of plain speak any time now?

Maybe I am square but I find it impossible to follow your coin of phrase.

Is this your way of Rapping? Non capisco…

Although, kind of cool…

But hey, I too am happy that this thread has not devolved into some quasi political diatribe. This is what happened to my several past attempts to start a thread about my desire to understand and enjoy Rap.

Just read that Kendrick Lamar is going into film production with the South Park guys. And I discovered that one of his albums set a record for remaining on the Billboard charts for 400 weeks! That and several Grammys, etc, etc.

And his acting was only criticized for being too “real”.

Clearly, it’s not just me who is a fan.

ghasley

So true that there are “material negative societal circumstances”.

So much still and so disturbing. So much so that it is the underlying theme of so much Rap. 
I always thought that Nazi Germany was not unique and that it could happen any time in the U.S. … never imagined that it could manifest so quickly and completely.

70 years ago most Germans believed that their country was made great again.

@audiocaseevan 

I just listened to a couple of Kendrick’s videos and want to buy that album that was on the Billboard charts for 400 weeks. Think that was something like M.aad.

The little that I just heard was less complex than “Pimp” but still had a musical thread that evolved and resolved. And his rap is very musical in its rhythmic beat.

Certainly not monotonous.

I too thought of the music of John Cage. Very avant-garde. I think he has a piece that is 4 minutes of silence. And there is much 20th century Classical that stretches the boundaries of what is music.

I really liked the Bliss N Eso. Rap very integrated into a familiar musical structure with acoustic instruments. I would like to hear more of them.

I did listen to all suggested videos and artists. The Elvis Costello was a lot of fun.

In my personal stretching of my musical experiences I have gotten heavily into David Bowie. Had always seen him at arms length as an almost bizarre character.

But now listening to his YouTubes I am drawn to his deeply charismatic vibe and highly sophisticated, progressive work. 

@simonmoon 

As said in my OP, Kendrick Lamar’s “To Pimp a 🦋 Butterfly” is as sophisticated musically as any music I know. The musical themes evolve and develop including a brilliant rhythmic rap and sound effects that create “deep and broad emotional and intellectual content”. If you check it out keep an open mind and judge it in its entirety. I think you will find it interesting if not gripping. In my superficial and introductory dive into Rap, it is firmly in the genre yet unique.

Listening to Kendrick’s “M.A.A.D City”. There are comparisons to “To Pimp a Butterfly” but it pales in comparison. So far, it just moves from one musical line to another more like other Rap. However, it does add some spoken dramatic sections.

”Butterfly” evolves the musical lines and sound effects not unlike a form of 20th century Classical. Elements of a composer like John Cage. Don’t misunderstand, Kendrick is firmly Rap but even “M.A.A.D” is even uniquely Kendrick. I enjoy the way he delivers his rap lines in an interesting rhythmic way.

But M.A.A.D., I believe, is the album which set the Billboard record of 400 weeks on the charts. Hearing it now, my opinion is that the less complex composition must be more appealing to the masses. Whereas I was held and interested in “Pimp”, not so much with “M.A.A.D”. 

@larsman 

The similarities to today are shocking. Cult mentalities. Propaganda.Violence.

And even worse, a propaganda machine unimagined.

On the Rap side, just learned that Kendrick Lemar won the Pulitzer Prize in 2018 for “Damn”. For “capturing the complexity of modern African American life”.

Started to listen to it. Seems like it is even more sophisticated than “To Pimp a Butterfly”. Starts with a narrative statement in normal, non rhythmic voice and evolves from that. 

Now having listened to many Rap artists I feel I can give a more complete evaluation. In general, Rap is not made for audiophiles. Mostly, it is electronically based. Acoustic instruments are mostly absent. Surely, I have heard some pieces that are musically brilliant. However, most are rather mundane and somewhat redundant and boring. Surely, there are words that are interesting but the bulk are still angry and/or confrontational. It is sad that there seems to be so much energy of expression devoted to negative societal statements.

I am 68. Have been a pro musician for most of my life. 
Thanks for the list of stuff to check out.

Listened to Drake “Scorpion” yesterday. Was disappointed. Especially after my incredible experience with Kendrick. It lacked the complex use of musical themes and sound design… for want of a better phrase. 
And the raw energy was missing. That held my interest and was sincerely emotional. This Drake left me feeling “so what?”.

Will check out the list.
 

@larsman 

Bought "Damn" LP from Amazon for $28. 

Listening to the YouTube now. Super interesting and musically terrific. Drama and content!

If only there was no "Us and Them".