Yes
I like the story of your journey
(I will come with “5 songs for listening, if you haven’t listened to hip hop”)
Is Rap a valid musical form?
This has been way more than the progression away from tubes to SS!
Believe the world of Hip Hop has been around and evolving for around 5 decades.
And for most of that time I have dismissed and avoided that world and its “music”.
So angry, offensive and abrasive. Just a bunch of rhythmic yelling.
I believe my former thread was titled “Why Rap?”. Through that discussion and somewhat of an understanding that this must be a new art form that engages and entertains millions if not billions. That and a long standing belief that if a type of music or a particular artist attracts many, many fans there must be substance and quality there. Even if I personally don’t particularly like it there must be something there.
Rap and the Hip Hop world was always so foreign and culturally untouchable.
Then my Rap thread and several others at that time got me rethinking my perspective and I watched a video of a group of student performance musicians at Juilliard all exclaiming their fascination with a Rap artist named Kendrick Lemar and his “masterpiece” “To Pimp a Butterfly”. I bought the double LP. Trying to listen to it turned out to be difficult because of my old view of Rap and that of the world of Hip Hop. But it was also becoming clear that this was truly something of significant interest. However, I just listened to the two discs only once-with some difficulty.
Today, after several weeks, I hesitatingly pulled the album out again. And to my surprise and actually delight hearing it with fresh ears it grabbed me and would not let go. I immediately heard the brilliance of a multi faceted, and to me, all new experience in sound. Not unlike great 20th century or progressive Jazz it evolved from section to section with a plethora of fascinating, yes musical, experiences. Tonal, atonal, percussive, rhythmic, breathing combined with incredible, energetic tongue twisting strings of mostly unintelligible words. And not merely angry yelling.
Sure, a ton of F bombs but words that don’t flow over you like lovely other genres but invade the psyche and don’t let go. Not particularly pleasant but gripping and interesting in its complexity. Words delivered with such power and drive which acted as a rhythmic counterpoint. It was impossible to turn away or turn off.
And speaking of turned off, the experience was the opposite of that. Stories of life undeniable human. Yes, driven by bitterness, anger and raw emotion. Impossible to dismiss it as not deeply felt.
I do think “To Pimp a Butterfly” is unique. But I also believe that there must be much more in this Hip Hop world that has deep musical interest. Some time ago I heard Drake on SNL perform a song that was amazing though not really Rap. Rather an advanced and unconventional musical form. I hear similar musical threads throughout “Pimp”. I did get a CD of Drake. “Scorpion”. I also could not absorb it in my first listen. I look forward to the next, fresh listen. I did try to hear several YouTubes of some very successful Rap artists. They mostly lacked the interesting musical themes threaded through. “Pure Rap” with just the rhythmic words-not my cup of tea. But a musically valid form none the less.
Showing 10 responses by jonwatches1
Fun topic If music is defined by melody, harmony and rhythm, then somebody needs to go tell Bartok, Schoenberg, Coltrane and Thelonious Monk. Because they didn’t care about any of it ( @stuartk ) (I love the dead, but Jerry Garcia is just a folksinger who got lucky) Here are five songs to try if you haven’t listened to rap or think you don’t like it. Personally, I think a lot of people forget that a lot of rap is funny, and much of it tongue-in-cheek parody. And many don’t really listen to lyrics - structure, rhyme scheme, meter. They just hear the words. And like any art form, understanding context can assist appreciation This isn’t a “greatest of all time” list. It’s just a list of good songs that maybe are accessible to a new-comer, and demonstrate some facet of hip-hop/rap worth that is worth understanding 1) All Fall Down, Kanye West. May expand your mind on the themes of hip-hop. Btw, Kanye literally changed popular music with this album (College Dropout), reintroducing melody and introspection after some years defined by sampling, and then beats. Bonus track: Breathe In, Breathe Out. So funny, amazing parody 2) Jay-Z, The Story of OJ. Speaks for itself. A song by a 50 year old man, who has seen every side of America (look up who’s providing the backing vocal sample and what they are singing). Sean Carter understands American history with unflinching clarity 3) Ludacris, Southern Hospitality. First, it’s really funny. Second, grab a pencil and parse the rhyme scheme, scansion, form, alliteration, assonance, etc. Chris Bridges is a very shrewd lyricist 4) Missy Elliot, The Rain. Probably the most influential song ever written by a female hip-hop artist. If someone on the thread understands music theory, please explain to us that rhythm. It might as well have come from Mars, because there wasn’t much like it before. Written by Missy and her childhood friend Tim Mosely (“Timbalad”), now considered one of hip-hop’s greatest producers The Rain also contains the best use of onomatopoeia in all music, at the beginning of the third verse 5) Warning, Biggie. A fantastic example of storytelling in hip-hop. The song is a journey. And Biggie’s delivery is a good introduction to the concept of “flow”. The producer, Osten Harvey, is good enough that Miles Davis asked him to produce for him @mrskeptic + 1 @atlvalet +1 @larsman + 1 |
@larsman , ok, maybe I said that for a little effect 😂. But let me remain sacrilegious and point out that John Mayer is a better singer, musician and songwriter than Jerry Garcia, by, like, 1000%. He’s still not Jerry, nor should he want to be I’m a musical omnivore and really do think there is great art in hip-hop as well. And, like all music forms, 98% of it will be forgotten in a hundred years. I mean, who remembers what was #2 on the charts in 1723, or whenever Bach finished his cello suites? @simonmoon , appreciate the thoughtful addition to the conversation |
@stuartk @larsman - the John Mayer reference could be qualified something like “as an objective/technical matter…”. Trust me, I listen to 100 songs by Jerry for every one by John Mayer (basically, his rendition of “Free Fallin”, which is actually good) (i regret ever bringing up the comparison🤦🏻) Btw, have you ever read the article “Phish Has Been a Band for Thirty Years Now, and They Have Sucked the Whole Time”? Very funny, even if one is a fan @stuartk re: above you’re a smart guy, you can do better than that in a conversation - we’re here to share ideas |
I tried to come up with five songs worth listening to (above). Discuss (since you listen) (and @larsman and @stuartk absolutely tortured me over an ill-conceived Dead analogy) @serjio please take 15 minutes of your life and try something new. In turn, I will listen to 15 minutes of any music that you recommend to me. In fact, just make a recommendation, because there’s nothing better than discovering new music |
@mglik - thanks for taking a listen, glad you saw something in the songs, even if not your cup of tea @krimsonhead - thanks! I will give it a listen and let you know what I think @mglik - btw, what are some things you’d have people listen to that might be new to them? ( @simonmoon - would be great to know the same from you. An interesting side discussion based on your thoughts would be “great singers with ok voices”, of which I think there are a lot of examples - but maybe not in genres you like) @brandonhall +1. Have a great day, everyone |
@daledeee1 give a listen to “Jungle Jay” by Olu Dara, the jazz musician (from his album, “In the World” The vocalist is his son, Nas. May not be your cup of tea, but I think an interesting example of where genres can go, and circle back on their origins. And it’s just about a perfect example of the singular flow of Nas, who toys with rhyme, rhythm and meter and makes it look effortless. Four minutes of your life. Let us know what you think @bubba_buoy +100 @simonmoon on YouTube, check out Rick Beato’s channel (appreciate it’s widely known). Real musician. He does, among other things, a series called “What makes this song great?” What’s interesting is his analysis of the underlying musical theory in songs written by people who don’t know anything about musical theory, but nevertheless exhibit such in their music. Check out Ep 105, Seal, Kiss from a Rose And you might like ixi music on YouTube, as well - she’s a real musician with an gift for exegesis who does breakdowns of NIN songs. Check out her breakdown of “March of the Pigs”, or, longer form, “Closer”. The “March of the Pigs” breakdown is great, because to most people that song sounds like a bomb going off - but there is intent behind every note. Trent Reznor is, of course, a trained musician who actively employs theory in his composition. The Closer breakdown is engrossing I’d love to know what you think! (You may think it’s all nonsense, but I am thinking of the aspects of music you’ve described as interesting to you) |
@krimsonhead I listened to Leenalchi and it’s just fxcking bonkers in the best way possible. Love child of The Talking Heads, Bjork and B-52’s, and totally original. Great party music, and something I would never have heard of without your recommendation. Thanks! |
@jssmith and @mglik I’m really glad you both gave those songs a listen, even though you didn’t like them very much. What would be five songs you each would recommend? Things you like but might be off the beaten path - would be great to learn about something I haven’t heard before I actually agree with a fair amount of what you said in response to those songs (and appreciate the objective content of your comments) - which is why taste is so interesting. Some of those qualities you dislike wind up being things I particularly like in rap (agreed - they aren’t conventionally “musical” & nothing distinctive about the instrumentation/performance - I mostly thought about them as being somehow “accessible”) (One of my favorite genres for musicianship is southern rock. Holy fxck, those guys could shred. I listen because I love the songs, but it’s a genre where sheer technical mastery and technique are so elemental to its form) For whatever reason, the closer rap gets to a voice, lyrics, delivery and a beat, the more I respond to it, on balance - maybe it’s the “purity” of what the artist is doing, and listening to how they play with rhythm, rhyme, pacing - vocalizing with/against/without regard to the beat in amazing ways. It’s why I like “Warning” by Biggie so much — those last two minutes are nothing but his voice, two minutes straight And seriously, would be great to get some recommendations! Glad this thread has (mostly) turned into a good discussion about music and ideas Have a great day, everyone
@mrskeptic - Three Feet High n’ Rising is a really special album. They were doing something really different and special. I remember “I be blowin’” as my introduction to Maceo Parker, and a beautiful rabbit hole of exploration @52356 the John Cage reference is really funny
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@mglik - tell us what you think; I’d be really interested in how *you* hear the same pieces of music (and you might conclude that they all suck)
Addendum: 1) Kanye’s delivery is “eh” on that track. But the lyrics and overall structure are so different from what anyone else was doing at that time 3) That song has no melody or harmony. Just a voice, lyrics and beat. Ludacris appreciated by many because his voice is just so BIG 4) Also one of the all-time great stoner songs. You’ll get it when you hear it 5) Totally unconventional song structure; note the last two minutes of the song, where Biggie just flows for line after line after line, telling a story |