Is Rap a valid musical form?

Whatever people think is music is music. But to me, rap is just a bunch of bad poetry with nothing of what I'd personally call music backing it.

I sampled that Kendrick Lamar. Yep, same old monotonous programmed bass lines and percussion, unimaginative moronic lyrics, almost no instruments and what there are could be played by a beginner-to-intermediate player, and no vocal ability. These Walls is the closest song to what I consider music, sounding similar to something out of the late 70's. If this is what Julliard thinks is talent it seems like they've dumbed down like the rest of post-secondary education.

@jonwatches1 

I gave All Falls Down a listen. My impression. OK, for a standard radio song, but still a monotonous four-chord progression. Now, I don't have a problem with some songs' musical simplicity. The Stones made a long career out of it and pretty much every pop song today, and most from the last 35 years, only seem to know one time signature and three chords. At least it isn't the "Boots and Cats" rhythm of so many hip-hop songs I was forced to endure in the past. But the talking (rapping) over the music is distracting. The background singing is decent though. I think the main problem is the talking is too fast and staccato, which is common in rap. Barry White could talk through a song and make it sound great.

So I figured I'd give a woman a shot and listened to Missy Elliot's The Rain. The same. A monotonous three-chord progression. At least the rapping was slower, so it didn't overpower everything else like the West song did.

One thing I noticed in the prevalence of YouTube music reactors is all the ones with a background in rap analyze rock songs from a lyrical perspective and mostly ignore the instruments. I couldn't tell you what the lyrics are to most of my favorite songs and I don't really care. I still don't know half of what Robert Plant is talking about in Stairway to Heaven, and it's my favorite song. It just isn't important. The vocals are just another instrument. I surmise that since rap's focus is the lyrics and it contains so little musical complexity, these people can't relate to the opposite. And I suppose that goes for me too. 

@wongpd

Not something I’d listen to, but much better. It seems my main problem is rap’s monotone talking. His singing isn’t impressive either. The chick on See You Again sounds decent. Get rid of the programmed synthetic bass, add some real or even programmed Superior Drummer to it, and put Cammie Gilbert’s vocals (check out the song The Banished Heart by Oceans of Slumber) over some of these songs and I’d probably listen.

After listening to several of the suggestions here and elsewhere, including Kayne West, Missy Elliot, Tyler the Creater, Snoop Dog, Tupac Shakur, Nicki Minaj, Flo Rida and others (I chose the best-selling names to see what's considered the cream-of-the-crop), I feel I have a better understanding of the reason for the chasm.

I think the rap that really irritates those of us who hate rap is the type that doesn't have any "musical" talent. They don't use "real" instruments, everything is created by moving a mouse around a desktop, the beats are monotonous and simplistic and the talking is monotone and not "musical." Those are artists like Kanye West, Jay-Z, Tupac Shakur, Tyler the Creater and Missy Elliot.

What I found after digging deeper is that there are actually "musical" rappers. I don't know what their whole catalog is like, but Flo Rida actually has musical songs, uses a lot of "real" instruments (or they're exceptionally well-sampled) and sometimes sings instead of talks. I even stumbled upon one Nicki Minaj song that was musical, but just one. So maybe like *pop, which I also dislike, there are a few decent songs.

Am I going to start "listening" to them? No. But I find them acceptable as background music.

* I watch Rick Beato's videos where he critiques the current pop charts. Recently he did the ten song-of-the-year Grammy nominees. All but a couple were pathetic three- or four-chord monotonous progressions with no time signature changes and no instrumental or vocal talent. And the couple that weren't were no better than background music. Most of the other chart-topping videos he does are universally unlistenable. I have to play some Dream Theater just to regain the brain cells I lost listening to them. Granted, pop has always generally sucked, but older pop at least had some songs that required talent.

@jonwatches1

Thanks for the response. Maybe you didn’t see a subsequent post. I dug a little further and I actually like a few songs I sampled from Flo Rida. They were musical, had instruments and some singing. Even one song from Nicki Minaj was musical, but just one.

Southern rock huh? I listened to Skynyrd, 38 Special and early ZZ Top growing up, but I couldn’t tell you what’s going on in that genre since the 80’s. I’m principally a metal-head at heart with some tentacles into classic rock, classical Spanish guitar, modern blues, shred, atmospheric rock, a little acapella, and even doo-wop.

Off the beaten path, huh? Metal is definitely off the beaten path in this forum. It’s a genre that you’re either geared to gravitate to, or not. In that regard, it’s probably a little similar to rap. And it’s definitely not audiophile-friendly. I don’t know if you have any experience with it. You’re possibly familiar with Anthrax teaming up with Public Enemy about 30 years ago on a metal-rap song. But I won’t subject you to the more extreme versions of the genre that I prefer, however I will recommend one song that even if you don’t like it you’ll be surprised and entertained by it.

Five songs ... hmmm. It’s important that you follow these specific YouTube links for full effect of what you’re about to see with some of these artists.

Jinjer - Pisces: Progressive metal. Like it or not, you will be "entertained."

"sheer technical mastery and technique are so elemental to its form"

Dream Theater - The Dance of Eternity: The band that immediately comes to mind when terms like that are used. Every member of this band is a master of their instrument, except the singer, but this song is an instrumental. DT’s time signature changes can be a little disconcerting for people who aren’t into progressive- rock, metal or jazz. Their songs can be very complex.

OK, back to "off the beaten path."

My favorite guitarist (I play guitar).

Buckethead.- Jordan (live): Buckethead is likely an autistic savant. His skill level is ungodly. And he has over 300 albums of various styles and genres. Yes, 300. It’s so hard to pick one song because one only gives you a sliver of a glimpse into Buckethead’s repertoire, he’s so diverse, but this is a good start. And you have to see a live version to understand not only the skill, but the mind of Buckethead.

Lacuna Coil - Trip the Darkness: A gothic/alternative rock/metal band. Their album Comalies is actually audiophile-friendly. One of the few well-recorded rock/metal albums. Like your list, this is a band I would list as "accessible" to beginning metal-heads looking into "modern" metal.

When it comes to technical mastery I could list a slew of shredders that have ungodly guitar and compositional skills. Or I could list my second favorite guitar player, SRV, but I’m assuming, even though SRV is blues, if you know southern rock you probably know who he is. And I don’t want to freak you out with metal since it’s likely it won’t be accessible. What to do, what to do? OK, let me give you the guy who, IMO, created shred guitar.

Yngwie Malmsteen with the Japanese Philharmonic: Malmsteen created neo-classical shred guitar (I don’t want to hear from you Blackmore fans). Van Halen was THE guitar god at the time ... until Malmsteen released his first album in 1984 and changed the course of electric guitar. That album is what made me take up guitar. I can’t come anywhere near playing with his speed or accuracy. But neither can all but a handful of professionals. He was heavily influenced by Paganini and incorporated it with rock on guitar. Unfortunately, after his first album he proved not to be nearly as accomplished a composer as a guitar player. But that first album - Rising Force - is great. He spawned a slew of shredders on the Shrapnel label who themselves spawned another slew of shredders. He is the father of shred.

@mglik 

As said in my OP, Kendrick Lamar’s “To Pimp a 🦋 Butterfly” is as sophisticated musically as any music I know. The musical themes evolve and develop including a brilliant rhythmic rap and sound effects that create “deep and broad emotional and intellectual content”. 

I listened to it. I don't hear it. Ignoring the questionable lyrics ...

Wesley's Theory - Sounds like early 70's funk with some simplistic EDM synthesizer added.

King Kunta - More 70's funk. Very repetitive four-chord bass-dominant rhythm. The beat sounds like something from the disco era.

Institutionalized - Fake drums really obvious on this one. Almost no changes on the drum rhythm through the whole song. Very simple keyboards with strange, but not interesting time signature that doesn't fit the rhythm.

These Walls - Here we go with the obvious repetitive fake drums again. The female vocals sound extremely familiar. Expose (the group) maybe? Something from early 80's. Upbeat rhythm is good. Guitar line is extremely familiar too. This song is heavily influenced from something I've heard decades ago, but I can't place the exact song.

u - Decent sax. Repetitive lyrics are irritating. Bass line drags. Weird rap voicing halfway through.

Alright - This is the third song where the sax sounds like a continuation. Again, it's buried in the background. Irritating repetitive lyrics again. Backing chorus adds the flavor this song needs.

For Sale? - Very nice chorus. First song with a more complex bass line. Nice texture added by the synth.

That's enough. Compared to other rap I can see the complexity, but that isn't saying much. There is no technical mastery, except the sax, but technical mastery isn't always needed to make a great song. I don't see compositional complexity either, except for maybe the sax lines and maybe a few of the harmonies.

If we're talking Julliard-approved here and it's considered compositionally complex rap let's compare it to something like 40-year-old Rush - Xanadu. I won't even touch on the technical differences.

I think it's too hard to ask those of us who are used to something like Rush to take a step back and appreciate Lamar. I can appreciate simpler music, but it must be virtuosic, either in technical ability or in composition. But there isn't a bass line on that album I couldn't master in 5 minutes. And I'm not that good. So I just don't see it.

Is there any rap that doesn't include some sort of vocal? I say vocal instead of words because I've heard of something called "mumble rap." Can "instrumental" rap exist?