Is it the beer or do speakers/electronics really need some extended warm-up period?
To me, one of life's best times are a cold beer and listening to good music. I have noticed that the longer the listening/drinking session, the better the sound. Is it the beer or do the electronics/mechanical components mellow out after some burn-in period? Thought about listening with no beer, but that's not happening.
I think it depends on both the beer and the gear. Drink enough and you're basically rolling off the high freqs. This becomes especially noticeable after 3 or 4.
SS class A or tube amps do seem to improve within the first hour while they stabilize. Some speakers, like my Spendors, seem to benefit from a good 30 min of warm up if they've been dormant for a while. Other speakers like my Heresys, don't seem to have that issue.
I've experienced systems sounding much worse after a few drinks, and the opposite as well. My main rig tends to sound better when I'm sober, but that's probably for the best.
I think most audio manufacturers believe their equipment benefits from an hour or two of being powered on. At least McCormack and Ayre and Atma-Sphere recommend keeping things powered on for a while. Bob
I don’t drink, so it must be the electronics. But actually, I do think after about 20-30 minutes things do sound better, more focused. I know that the cartridge always sounds better after the first side, I usually play a side of a LP that I don’t plan to listen to just for that reason. It lends to some credibility to the Audioquest DBS cables keeping them "charged" and for none DBS cables they must have a re-establish or break in that takes place when not in use or a while. Just my theory and not trying to start an argument on the subject, but I do normally put on some music while I gather the LP’s I plan to listen to before I sit down with my non-beer to relax. Again my theory and my way of doing things, ymmv.
My Krell monoblocks 450mcx clearly sound better after about an hour playing. I also try to run a cd for awhile prior to listening session. And only after leaving all electonics on Stand-by almost all the time continuously KCT and KPS 28 cd. If I shut off everything cold it sound poor for hours until warmed up I'm amazed how warm my KCT remains even in stand -by mode and amazed how poor it sounds comparably if not warmed up Best sound is after a hour of playing with or without beer I too enjoy a cold beer while listening. I have kept these things in stand by mode for years now and only usually listening on weekends I play cd and vinyl equally
The last time my system sounded bad, it had been off for 24 hours. I had forgotten about it when I sat down to listen, it had been on already a couple of hours, but ugh. I kept asking myself "why does it sound so bad?" until I remembered.
So, it's not entirely the beer.
This and my really random/erratic listening habits keep me away from tubes.
I don't drink either. Well, I sometimes do but under different circumstances. Two hours of warming up, after that I don't hear a difference. And I mean not playing anything for two hours. If playing, I can't be certain but I think it improves up to one hour. Mid-level solid state electronics, dynamic speakers, MM cartridge.
Time to play "March of the Self-Confident Audiophile"!
Sorry, guys, you are wrong. You're living in a fantasy where you can purportedly distinguish between warm up and burn in, and can hear equipment changing in sonics over hours or days. It's great for the ego, not so good for building superior audio systems. :(
douglas_schroeder Time to play "March of the Self-Confident Audiophile"!
Sorry, guys, you are wrong. You’re living in a fantasy where you can purportedly distinguish between warm up and burn in, and can hear equipment changing in sonics over hours or days. It’s great for the ego, not so good for building superior audio systems. :(
>>>>>>Uh, from what I can tell nobody actually claimed he can distinguish between warm up and burn in. I mean other that one person might have used the term "burn in" uh, inappropriately. I say we give him an audio grammar violation flag. 🇨🇺
Great post except for one, telling everyone their egos are inflated. Tell you what, either you're using really really crappy equipment aka GARBAGE or your hearing is really piss poor. and hey I said that without name calling
Geoffkait, doesn't matter, both are the same futile activity, horridly nebulous and fraught with subjectivity. Split them, merge them, either way they are useless. I'm a cable proponent, but that's different in that when I swap a cable I'm hearing the change immediately. What's being discussed that I find impossible is the notion that humans can accurately hear changes to gear over hours, days, weeks, months, etc. The belief in that is predicated up on the arrogant concept that humans have more consistent perception of what we hear than equipment has consistency in playing it back. That's laughable.
I showed that the entire affair, including the concept of component burn in as well as purported benefit to warm up, is a waste of time and energy. The moderators here have a problem with me pointing to my writing, as though I'm somehow benefitting from it (even though I'm not paid), so they will pull a direct reference to it or I would post it. You'll have to do a search for my name and the phrase "burn in". Having actually conducted comparisons and finding no difference sonically between both new/old and warm/cold systems at the same time, I have little regard for promotion of either one; they are summarily a waste of one's time.
Feel free to disagree, but I'm not interested in extended discussion of it here. I wrote my discovery and conclusions for all to read.
@douglas_schroeder I actually agree with part of what you’re saying, maybe even most. I agree to the extent I believe it’s quite difficult to keep track of the sound of one’s system over an extended time if one is trying to keep track of the progress and conclusion of the break in of a particular thing, whether it’s a fuse, a capacitor, a cable, whatever. I say that because there are too many variables at work, even if the audiophile doesn’t do anything at all, just sits there like a bump on a log, and doesn’t touch anything at all during that entire time. Now, I don’t know about anyone else but I don’t think I ever met an audiophile who was not (rpt not) constantly fiddling around and or replacing something. So it doesn’t make sense anyone can keep track of how something breaks in. It seems like something is ALWAYS breaking in. Hel-loo! And it doesn’t make sense someone comes to the conclusion that a capacitor takes 500 hours to break in. Give me a break!
Warm up is a horse of a different color. I suggest listening either very late at night or very early Sunday morning when the weather is nice and dry and sunny with high pressure. Then you will hear what your system really sounds like, without all the usual distortion. It’s no wonder folks can hear anything, there’s too much distortion during normal business hours to hear much of anything. Cut me some slack, Jack!
Thanks Doug, I can't believe I wasted time and money via my electric bill, because I delusionally imagined my Bryston amp sounded better after being on for 24 hours or so. Over and over I imagined this. If only this thread had appeared years ago. I could have saved a few bucks. My new Class A Luxman seems to take only about 30 minutes to come fully into song.
...
I'm a cable proponent, but that's different in that when I swap a cable I' m hearing the change immediately.
@douglas_schroeder --
How's that different to people perceiving sonic changes with either new/old or cold/warm gear? You could, say, turn on your gear and listen to it shortly, get out of the room and return in an hour or so, and then maybe you (that is, someone else) would notice a change immediately as well (I'm not saying the difference heard here would necessarily be as substantial than with cables, but that's irrelevant for this discussion)? This way you would "swap" one scenario with another, albeit with a longer interval between audition/evaluations - but one that would still leave room for perceptive reasoning. I'll admit ones ability to assess sonic changes over longer time as a gradual process (i.e.: burn-in) to be more challenging, but so is trying to unravel who're merely "under the influence" of Placebo, and who are not. The issue though of Placebo or time between evaluating one scenario against another (or the specific nature of what is evaluated) is not as relevant here as something else..
What's being discussed that I find impossible is the notion that humans can accurately hear changes to gear over hours, days, weeks, months, etc. The belief in that is predicated up on the arrogant concept that humans have more consistent perception of what we hear than equipment has consistency in playing it back. That's laughable.
Speaking of arrogance I'd say your assuming for all (of humanity) the right premise for when to be able to hear a difference comes awfully close; how would you know, exhaustively, the intricate inner workings and mechanisms of gear and the abilities of the human ear(s)? Mostly measurements and theory only gets you so far. Stick with your own impressions, and let others have theirs (with authority) as well.
A component that has been left off for an extended period is at a thermal steady state equal to room temperature.
The same component, after an extended period of operation at a certain volume level will be at a higher thermal steady state (oscillating with sonic dynamics).
Isn't it reasonable to believe that these two states might have an impact on the signal flowing through said component. Isn't it also reasonable to believe that a high end component might be designed to best operate at the higher steady state?
At the big shows like CES almost all the rooms sound terrible on Day One. That’s because everything, the speakers, the cabling, the electronics are new. Now why anyone would think that was a good idea is a subject for another discussion, but most systems, including the really big expensive systems, didn’t sound even HALFWAY good until the THIRD day, which unfortunately is usually closing day. Pretty funny, in a way, right? And in many cases that was ONLY because the systems were driven all day and all of the night for two days straight! Hey, sounds like a Kinks song!
The last time my system sounded bad, it had been off for 24 hours. I had
forgotten about it when I sat down to listen, it had been on already a
couple of hours, but ugh. I kept asking myself "why does it sound so
bad?" until I remembered.
So, it's not entirely the beer.
This and my really random/erratic listening habits keep me away from tubes.
@erik_squires , When I ran a solid state preamp many years ago (Fulton modified Bravura), it really didn't sound right until it had been on for about 24 hours. This was so consistent I wondered why it was equipped with a power switch since it drew so little power.
We consistently hear changes in our gear as it warms up and its easy to demonstrate. But only an hour is needed- and really its only the first 15-20 minutes in which the gear shouldn't be taken seriously.
In terms of warmup, it sounds like tubes can do that faster than solid state; so I'm curious how that keeps you away from tubes?
My cat can tell me when my pream/amp has reached its optimal temperature for best sonic performance. He has this look on his face as soon as that point is reached. My ears are too old to tell the difference.
With the Lamm ML 2 amps, you can definitely hear a difference as you play music for the first 45 minutes-1 hour. A gradual opening up in almost all aspects. If it is something else, then it must be the tube line stage or the tube phono stage, or perhaps the cartridge; they are part of a system that noticeably improves in sonics after the first hour of playing. I think it gets better by smaller degrees after that, but it is noticeable, and repeatable. I’ve been using these amps for about 11 years. And many previous amps I’ve owned, all tube, were the same in that they changed sound character for the better after warm up, though perhaps not as dramatically as the Lamm. The Lamm line stage I had- the L2- had a solid state audio circuit and tube power supply, and Vlad recommended keeping it always powered on; I did that (though I never really liked running tube gear when I wasn’t home). I would pull power during electrical storms, and it seemed to take days for that thing to come back on song after it had been unplugged for a while. I gather that solid state gear benefits from warm up too, but have less ownership experience in high end solid state gear. Switched to tube amps and preamps around 1974 and have soldiered on with various good tube products since then, none of them poorly made or designed- mostly early mid era ARC stuff.
For many years my big system needed about 20-30 minutes of playing time to sound its best even with everything powered on 24/7. I believe it was the tubes in my preamp and dac but the Sumo Nine Class A & Audio Alchemy transport warm up as well. The transformation was fairly subtle, mostly image but I'm sensitive to that. It went from closed in sounding to a very open and deep soundstage. Now that I am computer based playback, solid state dac, and a Levinson power amp it sounds the same turned on fresh as it does hours later so it really depends on the gear itself
So it turns out from legit scientific studies that alcohol has a ten fold influence on sound than thermal effects on electronics. You can try it yourself at home! It kicks in about 20 minutes, coincidentally about the same time the amp is running optimal and the cables have opened up :) It’s awesome!
It is the beer. Over the years, I have found that the more beer I drink, the louder I can turn up the volume to get the best sound. Alas, I had to quit drinking when replacement mids were discontinued for my speakers. I also had to limit Maynard Ferguson to my old system with electronicly activated speaker protection.
That makes sense to me since almost all systems distort the sound like crazy 😜 when turned up past moderate levels. I’m not hot doggin ya. Beer numbs the brain to the gross distortion.
In all seriousness (is that even possible?), I think the desire to turn up the volume is sometimes a desire to get 'more' you are there-they are here/immediacy/verisimultude (great word) out of the system. The trick for me is getting the volume/gain/amount of loudness just so for the particular recording on my system in my room. Turning it up too loud doesn't make it better. I also tend not to listen at super high db, but like the dynamics when they are there; the other side of it is that dead quietness on soft passages that is no so easily achieved on old records.
In all seriousness (is that even possible?), I think the desire to turn up the volume is sometimes a desire to get 'more' you are there-they are here/immediacy/verisimultude (great word) out of the system. The trick for me is getting the volume/gain/amount of loudness just so for the particular recording on my system in my room. Turning it up too loud doesn't make it better. I also tend not to listen at super high db, but like the dynamics when they are there; the other side of it is that dead quietness on soft passages that is no so easily achieved on old records.
+1
I tend to listen around 85db, however, the dynamic range is often such that it can vary between 65db and 105db.
You have choices, you can settle in with inferior gear but you will need a case of beer each and every time to make it sound better or you can buy quality gear and dispense with the beer entirely. Either way it's going to cost you.
Just turning my rig on and letting it warm-up for an hour or so has never paid any discernible sonic dividends. Of course it’s better than no warm-up time at all but I discovered years ago that at least 20 minutes of actual system playing time is the magic number for me. Don’t know why....
Just to be clear, I think the 'warm up' (at least that i'm referring to) involves playing it- not simply letting it stand idle after turn on. @hifijones -thanks for bringing out that distinction.
But kidding aside at least an hour warm up will start to bring out the beginnings of what will sound better and leaving it on over night (which I prefer) sounds the best in my opinion. At one point and a few years back I had some components that the longer they were left on the worse they sounded, no doubt a poor match for the speakers.
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