I have a fairly "purist" analog system from front end-tubes-tubes-tubes (SET) to horns. No X-0ver on mid horns, fed by Lamm ML2, along with woofers, not subs, run from an integrated plate amp. I run a parallel system at 55hz down (24 db/oct. roll off above 55 hz) with DSP and a pair of 15 inch subs that have been dialed in for "modern" bass- deep, dimensional. They are as close in character as can be made possible but I still want to hear fully horn loaded bass, not the modern version. DSP helps without sonically interfering at the frequencies I’m dealing with (low, with fast roll-off).
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"tearing the music apart, ripping it literally to bits, manipulating and altering and stitching it back together again"
I always wondered how digital stuff worked.
mahgister, I applaud your work. Passive room treatment is very important and can be fun to do (or frustrating). We have been involved in many room designs. Every room is different and presents its own challenges. We enjoy the challenges.
Digital and analog room correction systems are just another tool.
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I apologize for my wrong evaluation price post...
Anyway it is over my wallet possibilities ....
And anyway mechanical control cost nothing, is more fun, and completely satisfy me...
Trinnov unit is not cheap but it’s not $18K. It’s priced just under $7K. It included all crossover filters, analog-in, digital-in and analog-outputs.
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Clearly everyone agrees DSP is the answer. Only by tearing the music apart, ripping it literally to bits, manipulating and altering and stitching it back together again, can we be true to the source.
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Trinnov unit is not cheap but it's not $18K. It's priced just under $7K. It included all crossover filters, analog-in, digital-in and analog-outputs.
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Interesting site thanks...
I already deesigned my own corners room the same way though, my room is small 13 feet by 13 feet irregular and 81/2 feet high...😁😊
I used with my passive materials treatment my H. resonators grid location and some 2 sections screen in wood behind me to concentrate the sound in the room in a better way.... It is like listening an headphone but with the sound out of my head....Bettter than my 7 headphones.... It is the poor's man way but with a not so poor sound quality....
I wish you the best with your enterprise the room seems very promising....
Here is a link to our new company name and website..including concepts of the Energy Room .Tom
soundstageaudio.com
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Here is a link to our new company name and website..including concepts of the Energy Room .Tom
soundstageaudio.com
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I agree with Mahgister simple in room mechanical devices will have a major and fulfilling impact on the air and music in my room.
Under construction now are many devices that will contain upto 3000 individual components to enhance laminar flow in my room. 750 and counting upwards..incredible it is. Tom
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I am pretty sure that high end Trinnov is good DSP at 18,000 bucks... 😁😊
It is an electronical TOOL...
But my system value is 500 bucks...( too good now to take the trouble to upgrade it, i put all my 7 headphones in a closet i simply listen music with a good system not the best by all means for sure but... 😊)
I created my own mechanical room tuner for my specific speakers with a distributed grid of 50 adjustable Helmholtz resonators and diffusers at NO COST...
My post is to advise people no cost acoustic solution exist by virtue of simple acoustic and psycho-acoustic principles ...
Cost: a dedicated room and plenty of time to fine tune the mechanically flexible H. resonators ...
More fun than playing an electronical program and a concrete acoustic course for the ears in training because you are reaching out to your own ears not to a button you optimize your own hearing with the room pressure zones modifications...
My mechanical equalizer is permanent part of the room...Forget it for a living room....
«Sound is an experience more than an equation»-anonymus acoustician
«Music is more about meaning than about sound experience»-anonymus musician
«music+ sound= noise
music - sound=silence
music x sound = audio system amplification
music/sound and sound /music = meaning acoustical and tonal hierarchy created by ears-brain,
note that the division operation here is non commutative and timbre perception is not reducible to his spectrum »-anonymus music lover
«When we listen to a record album playback we listen through our own room the sound which comes from the recording room...Then we listen to two rooms at the same times and none of them will completely disapear»-anonymus recording engineer
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Yes if you can afford Trinnov, it's about the best.
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I am just concerned that the ADA conversion will loose the original SQ.
There are TONS of variables involved in this question. I’d say do what you can with room treatments and then give some form of good DSP a try and see how it works in your room and system. I’ve heard RC work in expensive systems that made such a dramatic improvement it swamped any concerns about the additional digital processing, but that was just in that instance but demonstrates the level potential benefit. I’d say try to demo something like a DSpeaker anti-mode 2.0 (or buy one used) and just see what you think. It’s really the only way to know, but I will say I think it’s WELL worth your effort to try. Best of luck.
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secretguy, Sorry, I don't.
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Arion...any experience with the Anthem system?
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I understand. Most of us carefully choose our components. We buy them because we like the way they sound. As you said we pick them for a reason. I am respectful of everyone's opinion (well almost everyone's) and encourage people to use what they are comfortable with and what they like. I comment mostly to encourage people to be open-minded.
But that's part of my point. The DSP system in transparent. Along with providing all filters/crossover functions it's there to maximize speaker/room integration not to alter the sound. In my system I use small SET tube amps to drive the towers. I can change tubes, interconnects, speaker cables, DAC, preamp, cartridge or anything else and it's just as obvious as in an all analog no DSP system. Probably more noticeable. The front end is not being processed and is not in the RC loop. The amps are because the system must gain match everything. Think of it as speakers being custom built for a specific room.
Keep in mind that applied high quality DSP/RC works in both the amplitude and the time domains. Passive room treatment works primarily in the amplitude domain and is not linear. Don't get me wrong. I have always been a strong proponent of passive room treatment. My showroom is completely treated and I have been using passive room treatment at audio shows for about 20 years and will continue to do so.
At the recent CAF show many people were surprised (and a couple in disbelief) when I told them that at the hart of our all analog system was a DSP unit preforming all crossover functions and RC. Everyone I asked told me they couldn't tell.
BTW, The VPI JBL room with the JBL Everest speakers was using full on DSP/RC. The room needed help. RC made a huge improvement. Please read what people said about that room.
All I am really saying is that people should not make unfounded negative comments about high quality DSP/RC unless they have actually tried it. I'm not talking about free DSP software or cheat Parts Express DSP units. It's unfair to discourage open minded people from exploring other valid options.
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I am a big fan of DSP, as my posts show, but being an audiophile I want to hear my DAC and I want to hear my integrated amplifier doing what they are here for. I picked them for a reason.
For me to put an additional A/D and D/A component in the middle of that is not something I'd want to do. I try to keep my DSP/EQ in the digital domain, except perhaps on the way to the sub.
Still, I have to say that if you make your speaker sound great at a show you are obviously doing something right indeed.
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We always suggest to our customers to use passive room treatment as needed if they can. High quality DSP/RC is much more than just EQ. It’s a mistake to think they are the same. Also, high quality DSP/RC corrects issues that passive room treatment cannot. they are different tools.
I understand people who have digitalphobia, I know that I did. I was the last person in my circle to buy a CD player.
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Room treatments and DSP are complementary but not everyone can take advantage of both.
If you can get room treatment, start there and add DSP. If you can’t, add DSP. If you can do neither, go get on a cable buying merry go round. :D
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Acoustic and psycho-acoustic are not reducible to DESP room correction...
Ask an acoustician...
An eclectronical tool cannot replace room control with acoustic mechanical method...
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The system the OP is referring to was an all analog tube based system except for the digital crossovers. It was comprised of all REF Audio Research tube electronics, analog only front end and Apollo 12 active speakers. All crossover filters were digital. The processor we use has room correction capability which we used. The room correction (RC) should be called "signal correction for room compensation" or something similar. I have no doubt that part of what impressed the OP was due to the use of RC. The processor has powerful bass management tools. The rest of what impressed the OP was likely the very articulate and dynamic nature of the system. Our speakers are designed to work with DSP.
For some people signal processing seems to be an evil proposition. Maybe it is but from the first step of recording sound to playback through speakers there are dozens if not hundreds of processes that take place. Many analog and now many digital. I doubt anyone can say with complete certainty which form preserves music waveforms most accurately across the board. BTW, I listen to about 80% vinyl LPs.
"digitize the crap out of it" What does that mean? Once digital it's digital. There's no crap added, not by us anyway.
Not all DSP is equal. Learn about and listen to high quality DSP controlled systems before you pass judgement. RC is just a subcategory of DSP.
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Who said anything about measuring except you MC?
Tired tired tired.
The answer is that DSP complements treatment, not replaces it, irregardless of system quality.
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i would think yes, room dependent of course, and there are also other ways to skin the cat, like judicious placement of speakers and treatments
that said, i would think sometimes some rooms have really tough bass modes that really benefit from altering the audio signal to effectively ameliorate
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😁😊😊😊
I think that for that reason i am no more an "audiophile"...
I realized that very few people understand what i speak about...
I am a very bad communicator...
And each one of us are different for sure....
All at different post along the road, and the road has not the same distance for each of us anyway...
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Everyone knows the more complicated the circuit the better it measures. The more manipulated the signal the better it measures. And the one sure way to make analog measure better is to digitize it.
So by all means if you want to measure stuff then digitize the crap out of it, stand back, and gaze with all your measurebat- er friends at the glorious beauty of your, whatever you call it. Applaud yourselves at turning music into something only an audiophile could love.
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It is not the price of electronic components so much that give an Hi-FI experience...
It is acoustic....
The electronic component of Hi-FI is already mature for decades...
Acoustic is completely underestimated in small room ....
Acoustic passive material treatment....
Especially Acoustic mechanical active control with Helmholtz method...
It is my experience...
A dedicated room is the only necessary luxury in audio, not the price of the amplifier
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Audition the DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 and see if it works for your system. It did for mine.
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Room correction is not a cure all. Good hi-fi systems have been in operation long before room correction was possible. Does every system need room correction? I think no but things can always be improved...in most cases.
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Depends what you are doing. :) My hero, Floyd Toole, and I agree on the principle that doing too much EQ makes you wonder why you bought those particular speakers in the first place.
Where EQ really shines is in the bass, and subwoofer integration, and there the effects can be pure glory if done right.
If you have a high-end 2 channel system the place to start is with excellent room treatment. Then think about DSP
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Well room acoustics don’t shy away in fear just because the hifi is high end. You can bank on that!
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I guess I'm missing the point. Room correction is just that, room correction. It has nothing to do with the source. I run correction from 300hz and down. 300hz and up, is pure analog and a passive XO. I also run GRs servo sub system too. That is fed with an analog signal, but the plate amps are A/B with a step baffle and firmware for correction 100hz <. 100-300hz is done with a 2496 active XO full blown correction and on the fly visual to see your correction interact with the room. It has an active feed for the mic and you can see it from a laptop as you correct.
Treat the room as much as you can stand, set up your bass system and enjoy your analog hybrid system. BTW decouple the BASS and you'll use even less correction.. I like correction just not active correction and for bass management only.
Regards
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To me digitizing everything kinda defeats the point on an analog system. Maybe it’s fine but it would bother me. That being said I don’t spin records much at all.
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Correlated to SQ-I hear the SQ in the video clip mentioned.
I am just concerned that the ADA conversion will loose the original SQ.
Guess the Trinnov is a very good one.
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I can't speak to analog since I'm strictly streaming, but I'm familiar with DSP (DIRAC) within my 2-channel system. I can't remember where I read it recently, but it was something along the lines of room "correction" should actually be called room compensation instead - this definitely resonated with me. I've completely moved away from DIRAC and instead focused on room treatments and guidance from Get Better Sound by Jim Smith, which has yielded greater results.
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What part of DSP room correction makes you think that it is correlated to system quality?
We'll wait.
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