Is bi amping worth it ?

There are definitely some benefits that can be had from bi-amping, but the results depend on a lot variables.  There are  a lot of ways to approach bi-amping, so your approach is best tailored to your system and goals.

Adding an active subwoofer is essentially bi-amping, and is typically one of the easier ways to add bass punch. To get more bass punch through traditional bi-amping would typically mean getting an amp or amps that offer more bass punch than what you’re currently using, or adding a way of boosting just the bass range....which I'd think would be more complicated than adding an active sub.

 

Been there. Don't that. Not worth it

My speakers are designed to be bi_amped. They have an internal ice power750 watt amp that can be configured to drive just the bass. The external wavelet II crossover has DSP as well. I run a small 50watt class A amp for the top registers and it works really well. I don’t know how it would work on theK horns. They seem rather efficient to bi amp JMHO.

601 mono-blocks, that’s supper over kill for K-horns. I would not bother trying to bi-amp with that much power available. Unless you're considering moving to low power amps then maybe splitting the mid-tweeter and bass would help. That said if you’re not getting punchy bass from your K-horns I’d look at set up issue and speaker location room interaction first.

From my experience with Klipsch speakers (LaScala’s in my case) you’re better off with lower power amps, you are never using more than a few watts at best with 105bd speakers. I ran mine on 2.5watt SETs, 8wpc SET’s and some really nice 25wpc SS class A amps, and it was glorious. 600wpc is so over kill you’re barely getting that amp out of idle no reason to add more power IMO.

Subwoofers are hard to match to K-Horns but it’s possible with good quality sealed units. I would think that’s a better direction if you wanted more bass, after you address any set up issues and room interactions. You do have them in corners, right?

Unless you live in 1950, no.

No, it really was not worth it in the end. 

Tried it several times and a few ways, with the same of each amp. Vertical and horizontal configs. It could sound "exciting" at first, but never convinced me to stick that way for longn. Seemed less musically coherent somehow (there can be slight differences in units of even the same model of an amp). Not good results with bridging SS amps to mono, either. What I didn't try is biamping with disparate amps (like tubes up top) - but honestly the coherence issue when biamping with the same SS amp turned me off that idea.

What CAN make a big positive difference is taking two stereo tube amps that can be switched (paralleled) into mono, and running them as monos. 

This was done with Tannoys that are relatively efficient. 

Three ways to improve your base I can think of...

1. Call Greg at Volti Audio and ask about upgrading your driver and/or crossovers.

2. If you're streaming music, get a streamer that has EQ.  I use Eversolo w/o using their DACS - just straight stream, but their EQ in their app is easy and excellent.

3. Dual quality subs that have crossover adjustment.

I integrated a pair of REL Carbon Specials w/ my Volti Rivals (using McIntosh C2700 tube pre w/MC462)... Set crossover fairly high so mid-range voice comes through.  Is unbelievably good.  Adding well integrated subs improves presence, warmth, makes the soundstage wider and deeper, and when you get it right adds a rich holographic overtone.

But Klipsch bass driver loose/flabby - would clean that up first, then think of next step.  Call Greg.

if you do wind up looking for an external crossover, this is the one I would look at. All analog, no digital in the signal path.  I don’t have personal experience with it, but I have researched it a good bit, and found positive reviews.  if you do wind up getting one, DM me with your thoughts on it.

https://sublimeacoustic.com/products/k231-stereo-3-way-active-crossover

45 day return policy. Their FAQ section is helpful.

Gemoody 

that looks like the perfect crossover  . Inexpensive enough to give it a try.  
 

namrider1 

I did reach out to Greg last year when I had vintage khorns .  Were going to upgrade all Component’s with volti and then I can across an opportunity to trade my vintage horns in on a new pair of horns and did that.  The new enclosed horns were much improved over the vintage , especially the bass.   Not looking to upgrade these speakers ( as yet )   
 

I see where if you buy direct from REL they give you a 60 day trial.    I may try a set of the classic 99 . I admit I like the way they look cosmetically ( already have a large  black box subwoofer for theater)  just hoping they will add enough.   Seems two of them should. ? One to each mono block 

Klipsch now sells a product with an electronic crossover.welcome to the modern age. I like mine and bi and tri amp alot of hard to drive speakers. Klipsch are very efficient and do not normally need that. Crites works with alot of updates on klipsch speakers. You may need some subs and these days some have built in room correction I think svs is one.enjoy the hunt.

@OP - am I correct that your loudspeakers have two sets of speaker terminals for bi-wiring/biamping. If that is the case you don't need a separate crossover - you will just be passively biamping, feeding the signal from your preamp to two separate sets of amplifiers.

However, as I regularly say here, you have to consider opportunity cost. What would a better amplifier sound like versus a bi-amped set?

As mentioned by other posters, Klipsch's do not need lots of watts so I would be inclined to believe that better watts would be preferable to more watts.

@yoyoyaya 

yes these speakers are set up for easy bi amping . 
 

better quality power. ?  I know there is better of course but I would have thought the McIntosh 601 monoblocks and McIntosh tube pre amp would be of sufficient quality power 

@OP. Your preamp has multiple pre outs, so you can easily bi-amp without an additional crossover.

The pre and power are perfectly fine, though a high quality solid state class amp of lower power would be a better match for the speakers. I say solid state because the speakers have a very demanding modulus of impedance in the bass.

However, from your description of what you are trying to achieve sonically, the problem is that the speaker is quite uneven in the mid to upper bass and has a very rapid falloff lower down. Bi-amping is not really going to help you because it's not going to correct or even ameliorate the fundamental issues in the bass referred to above. 

It depends on the quality/design of your crossover.

There is no objective difference using 2 amps instead of one. There are no speakers that can differentiate where electrons come from. 

@roadcykler Wrote:

There is no objective difference using 2 amps instead of one. There are no speakers that can differentiate where electrons come from. 

See here last page BI-AMPLIFICATION. 😎

Mike

@roadcykler 

There is no objective difference using 2 amps instead of one. There are no speakers that can differentiate where electrons come from. 

While I can’t often justify passive bi-amplification’s cost, I have to disagree with your statement, somewhat.  @ditusa posted a paper from Lansing Heritage which may seem very old but some still has merit today. 

Your statement would be true IF every solid state amplifier were a perfect voltage source but they are not.  The behavior of each amp when providing current varies significantly. 

My experience with amps and speakers and as a speaker builder and investigator lead me to believe that bi-amplification could have measurable benefits. 

In my mind, the issues come from the tendency of speakers to have dips in the impedance curve, especially at the mid bass.  By dips I mean anything less than 4.00 Ohms.  I think these dips are audible, even with a typical modern SS amp with high damping factors.  I think in some cases speakers are even deliberately tuned to have a dip so they are more "discerning" of amplifier "quality." 

These impedance dips can lead to a softening of the DC voltage rails, and provide a path for intermodulation distortion to creep in.  By having a separate amplifier for the "high impedance" part of the speaker you eliminate the bass current draw from modulating the rest of the output.  

Next, there’s the issue of total power demand.  While passive bi-amping does not change the expected voltage swing of each amplifier, the current draw of each amp, and therefore the power, does get reduced significantly due to the high or low pass filter’s increasing impedance away from the crossover point. 

Having said all of that, from a pure efficiency and cost point of view, active bi-amping spanks all of those for benefits of current and power delivery.   Another approach which I feel raises the value of bi-amplification is to use flavorful tubes for the mid-treble and solid state for the bass.  You get the best of both worlds, while eliminating the impedance matching issues of tube amps.   If you put a single cap in series with your tube amp you can really get outstanding dynamic range improvements. 

Hello hardhattg !  Bi amping is worth it if you add an electronic crossover to your system along with the extra power amp. An electronic crossover lets you get a 24 db/octive (very steep) crossover that keeps the tweeter and the woofer from unwanted overlaping each other AND lets you get rid of the (generally low quality) crossovers in the speaker cabinets. It will connect after the preamp and feed the power amps. If you choose a DBX 223, you get to play with the levels and crossover points. Great Fun!  There are different models with different connectors. be sure to get the type you need.

So, open up the speaker cabinets, remove the existing passive crossover parts. Connect the woofer directly to the old terminals (if they have magnetic parts, replace with (at least) brass terminals. Connect the tweeter wires to a new pair of non-ferrous terminals. (If you experiment a lot, add a 20 mfd or larger  high quality capacitor in series with the tweeter to keep the buzz out if you happen to make any sort of mistake when the power amps are on.)  Your power amps now connect directly to the speakers, allowing their damping factor to influence the drivers, vastly increasing their ability to control distortion. The difference will delight you. (High quality cables will really show up now.) Enjoy the music.

@hardhattg 

I am a firm believer in bi-amping speakers that are designed for it. My speakers are old and not efficient, requiring quite a lot of power. I use AR9 speakers which are rated for 400 watts of power. I'm not sure how this changes if you biamp but mine are bi-amped with 2 stereo amps rated at 385 wpc @ 4ohms. I'm not really even sure if the AR rating of 400W is at 4 or 8 ohm. The speakers are rated at 4ohms with FR of 18hz to 30khz. 

When I started with these speakers, I only had one of these amps and the bi-amp feature of the speakers was using jumpers for one amplifier. It would seem that having 385wpc, should have been plenty to produce good solid bass from these speakers but I did not hear what I was looking for at all. They sounded nice but bass was not full or strong or snappy or whatever words can be used to describe really good bass. So...........I bought another identical amp and bi-amped the speakers. The difference was night and day. The bass from these old AR9's is very impressive. I have been enjoying them this way for 25 years or so. I would never take them back to a single amp.............never.

If your speakers are set up for bi-amping, I would do it in a heartbeat. There should be absolutely zero need for another crossover, which in my opinion, would just complicate things and make synergy much more difficult to find. I'm not sure how your speakers were designed but horns are much different than what I have so I can't say but listen to the experts here. Eric_Squires for one. For me, two amps that are exactly the same, has worked extremely well. Your horns may require or work well with something completely different, I do not know. I know there are some large speakers made with a large power class D amp to run the woofers and they suggest that the top end can be run with very low powered SET types. Would not work for mine but it's all in the design. Best of luck but I'd suggest trying bi-amping for sure. You can often try components for 30 day with satisfaction guaranteed. There is no risk and I think you'd be delighted with what you hear. It will give you the best that your speakers have to offer as they were made for this.

@erik_squires Oops, Sorry to screw up your name. 

Well , from all the comments so far certainly makes sense to try bi amping.  Doesn’t cost anything to try passive bi amping other than another set of speaker cables. Will try that first and see if any difference .  I have the mono blocks and the pre amp supports two main outs.    Have ordered some additional speaker cables and will try this first and report any difference with this first move , probably this weekend. 
 

thanks again for all comments and advice . Greatly appreciated.  

I’ve tried bi-amping briefly, and I can testify that the quality of the amps makes a difference. Amplifiers designed for Public Address (PA) speakers do not work well with the midrange/tweeter half of a B&W 801Matrix. Maybe if I had turned the volume down on the PA amp. Oh well. I do have a 4-way Pioneer crossover for my next attempt. I expect it will be an exciting adventure, as I expect your’s will be as well. I would anticipate a good deal of time may be spent on ‘dialing it in.’ Good luck. 

If done right, which an active crossover and the right amplification yes definitely.  But if all you plan on doing is using two amps and using the passive crossover inside your speakers, then probably not.

@hardhattg 

I'm not sure what you will accomplish after looking back to your original post. I would need 4 mono amps to do what I'm doing with mine. I don't see how yours would be any different. I use two stereo amps and use vertical bi-amping. It makes a huge difference with my speakers. As I said before, I would never go back to a single amp and I don't think that I would change that opinion even if I did have two hefty mono blocks or a single high end stereo or dual mono amp. I could be wrong but in my system, what i have done serves me the best. You may find completely different results in yours but if you are unsatisfied with your bass response, you owe it to yourself to try it........or at least try something different. Best of luck.

OP:  

I jumped into the discussion about biamping without reading your original text. I think it is smart to step back from purchasing a subwoofer without fully understanding the implications.  

I'm not sure bi-amping will give you enogh benefit, but it's not a zero gain solution either.

An intermediate and often overlooked approach is to improve room acoustics. An overly reflective room will "lack bass."  The real issue isn't that there's not enough bass but that the mid-treble stays around too long and raises our perception of mid-treble output. 

If you decide to keep your system as it is... One option is a  JL Audio CR-1 Crossover.  I recently purchased a used one and it has provided much improved transition between the mains and the active subs.  I am sure there are better ones (even digital).  The adjustments for the mains and subs are very helpful.  I was patient in looking for a used one and found it for $1850 recently.  Full box/looked brand new.  Just a thought.  Have fun! 

If I am not mistaken it seems that at the very least , that bi amping my khorns , using one mono block for both low frequency , woofers in both speakers and the other mono block for the midrange and tweeters in both speakers . That should give me the ability on certain music to increase power to the low frequency amp if I desire to ?  I believe this is correct and may be all I need.   Will find out this weekend hopefully.    I am not looking for a big change I am quite happy with the system and I love the sensitivity of the horns  , always have but just feel like could use a touch more low end from time to time.  

If your bass is lacking it's likely a component issue, not a "power" issue.  In my experience McIntosh is not known for their bass performance.  I'm not saying it's bad, but it doesn't have the reputation of say Krell for example.

So, you can solve this a few ways.

1. Add a quality subwoofer that can integrate with your speakers.  I've used JL Fathoms in the past and they were excellent.  There are lots of great subs out there but they do require effort to integrate them properly.  The automatic configuration SW the JL had was really good.  This is not a pitch for JL as many other offer the same type of auto setup.

2. Look at other components that have better bass performance.  I've found that the preamp is typically the one component that will make the biggest change.  Maybe you could audition one from a local dealer just to see if it helps.

3. The following is my preferred solution which is to use a source (DAC) that has some DSP.  Purists will hate this idea but that's ok.  The DSP allows you to tailor the sound to your liking.  Adding a few dB of gain in the low bass region can really make a difference.  Again, I'd recommend auditioning something and playing with it for a weekend to see if it solves your issue.

Good luck with your journey!  I'm curious to see how your experiment works out.

@hardhattg Wrote:

If I am not mistaken it seems that at the very least , that bi amping my khorns , using one mono block for both low frequency , woofers in both speakers and the other mono block for the midrange and tweeters in both speakers . That should give me the ability on certain music to increase power to the low frequency amp if I desire to ?  I believe this is correct and may be all I need.

You’re mistaken. Passive or active bi-amping a stereo pair of speakers, requires four channels of amplification. You can use four mono amps or two stereo amps I prefer four mono amps. 

Mike