Integrated amplifier for Fritz Speakers
Hi All,
I started a discussion about "Monitors for 14 x 20 Room" back last November. There was a lot of good advice and Fritz Speakers kept being positively mentioned.
At the time, I thought WAF would be low for a larger sized monitor. Now I think I have the stage set for Fritz speakers and am thinking either new Carreras or Carbons.
I would prefer an integrated amp because it is one less piece of equipment io place in in a constrained space.
I would also prefer solid state to solid state, in order to have this system as problem free as possible.
Your ideas and suggestions, please
Dsper
Hi All, Finally, I have my Carbon SE mk2's sorted. I acquired a factory refurbished Marantz CD60 player and an AVA SET120 integrated and things have come together.
Imagining, soundstage, bass, sense of aliveness and musicality are all there. With this setup, the main thing I seem to miss is the last bit of detail and nuance. Not sure if it is the speakers, the amp, or the source! But we are comparing a $4,000 system to my main rig that is multiples as costly. Half of my main system dollars are tied up in a Mojo Audio DC and PS Audio PMT. Anyway, I can heartily recommend my Carbon setup. There is a warmth that is beguiling and you can just listen to music! YMMV, Dsper
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@dsper have you decided on the Carerra or Carbon ? I ask because I've used some of the same Scanspeak drivers in a few speakers I built, and upgraded, similar to the Fritz Carbon 7 SE MK 2. Warm, full body, nice. https://www.fritzspeakers.com/DreamWeaverFritzCarbon7Mk2SpecPage.asp The AVA SET 120 control amp and this speaker could be a nice combination for you. I've studied Frank's amps quite a bit, his design, mosfets he uses, and this particular amplifier . You might ask Fritz about this again too, I think he recommended a similar combo. Return policy options on both make it low risk and possibly fun to try fwtw. I like this idea. Might be a nice little system, best of luck.
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The SET 120 amp and Control Amp along with the SET 400 would fall into the warm and liquid with good bass category. I have a friend that used the Control amp with Carrera's for several years and then used it as an amp only with a Supratek preamp. I used the SET 400 for several years with Carrera's. As the SET 120 Control amp is nothing but the amp module and a passive preamp in one box if you wanted to keep using your Axiom no reason the SET 120 amp shouldn't work plus you have a 30 day money back to work with. |
His remark was in the context of me currently using an Axiom II passive with the speakers, which Fritz felt was a pretty good passive. He was thinking the passive in the 120 SET would get me where I wanted to go...which is to eliminate the "sterile" sound of the current setup. I suppose that the SET 120 would be a definite step up from the Niles amp I am currently using with the Axiom. My problem is that I do not understand the sound signature of the SET 120. Is it forward or laid-back, warm or cool, detailed or not, dynamic of not, etc. I am looking for a bit warm and liquid. |
Had a conversation with Fritz about amps for the Carbons. He mentioned Belles and Van Alstine. When I explained that I was using a passive preamp, he thought the 120 SET Control amp might not be my cup of tea. I really do not have the space for an active preamp, so I think that eliminates Van Alstine for this setup. He also suggested Canary and felt they had a lot of good gear. I mentioned Glow Audio and he had not heard their amps. My impression was that he was subtlety suggesting 50 to 100 wpc would be better than a low power amp...I do not want to misrepresent the conversation, but my inference was that more tube watts was better....he certainly was not trying to talk me into anything.
good. ed iubtling |
Amp 1 I have heard. Amp 2 is probably a decent option as well. Both very nice and very affordable to try. You might check with Fritz about that specific model but the special thing about Fritz speakers is their crossover design that provides a very easy load to drive. I’ve heard Fritz Carerra sound top notch off a similar flea power tube amp at a show and frankly I was very surprised how little power those Fritz needed. . It should deliver the more relaxed sound you are after and cost not much. Absolute spl level would be the limitation but it would probably do fine up to very decent volumes. The Amp 1 drove Audio Notes to good levels in a decent sized room. |
This is interesting; but I not sure I want to fuss with tubes. Were you thinking the Glow Audio 1 or 2? Would five watts be enough to run the Carbons?
You make some good observations. My opinion is that the Niles amp is not that good...I hadn't thought about the passive pre...maybe I should consider an integrated as space is an issue (the Don Sachs would never fit). I was thinking maybe a Van Alstine control amplifier or give a PS Audio Stellar 300 a shot. Both are slim and would provide abundant power. Typical problem - so many choices and I have heard but a small fraction of what is available.
Can you describe the house sound for Luxman? I am also looking for an amp that would work with both Zu Soul Sixes and for Klipsch Forte iv's.
Thanks all!
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I don't know your amp, but a passive pre can make the sound more detailed and immediate but also a bit sterile sometimes IMO, try to replace the Axiom with the Don Sachs and see what happens. Also, any single piece of cable, connector etc., including the electric outlets, can change the sound in many ways, including making it more sterile, so I'd also try switching every single cable with those from the main system, one by one. My 2 cents... |
Okay Everyone, I need your assistance! The Fritz Carbons are in their final resting place at my wife's inherited home. The front wall is15 feet wide and the side walls are 20 feet long, with a six foot opening on one side. The backs of the speakers are about one foot from the front wall. They are about eight feet apart on either side of a cabinet/electric fireplace that is about twenty inches deep. The speakers are about ten feet from the listening seat. I cannot adjust these logistics. The boss is surprisingly comfortable with the setup as it is...so I will not start a regional conflict. Using a Azur 640 CD player (15 years old), Axiom II passive, and a garage sale Niles 275 amp. Detail is there, bass is there, soundstage is there, and no treble nasties. BUT it sounds sterile. I inserted a Soekris 1421 DAC. No real improvement. Maybe the Azur is not that bad...? What are your suggestions? Is it the source or the amp? Right now, I am listening to my main rig: Zu Audio Soul Sixes (as I argue with myself about Forte iv's {still a bit too "hot"}), 12 gauge copper wire, via PS Audio PMT, Mojo Audio B4B, Don Sachs pre, and First Watt F7. Ice Age interconnects. Sounds great, liquid, and violins are sweet. Nothing fancy. It makes me listen all of the time. Please and thanks! Dsper
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Not sure if OP is still looking into getting the Fritz speakers (or anyone else who may be considering) but he just posted a sale on the Carrera’s for $2800...they are typically $3500. $2800 is only $200 more than he’s charging for the Carbon 7’s these days I paid $2600 for my Carbon 7 SE mk ii’s including shipping exactly a year ago.
see link |
FWIW, I am finding that higher efficiency, easier to drive speakers are a lot of fun. One is not obsessed with high power amps required to run inefficient speakers, so you can concentrate on the overall sound. For example, I had read about First Watt products and decided to try one. I picked the F7 because I was persuaded that the damping factor of the amp would do a good job driving the Forte iv woofer. It did that but also veiled the presence of the horns in the Fortes. The law of unintended consequences. But the real learning for me is that I am starting to truly listen to what I am hearing. Anyway, the F7 is currently a good match with the Carbons. Interestingly, I can tell when the F7 gets warmed up after being shut off overnight. The sound changes for the better quite dramatically to my ears. I have heard that sort of things with tubes but not so much with solid state. |
@dsper - Indeed - when they are performing at the level they will get to, 'laid back' will not be the first phrase that enters your mind. 😁 Enjoy the break-in process - you'll get to that 'Eureka!' moment... |
You are correct about the sound changing. I am at about 50 hours and it seems like the treble has suddenly gotten more forward and accentuated...less laid back. |
@dsper - if those Carbons are new and anything like the Carrerra's I have, in a few hundred hours they will sound nothing like they do now. Mine were pretty ratty sounding with the various frequency ranges sounding unacquainted with each other for well over a month - but eventually they get to where they should be and you've got magic! |
If the speakers are 10’ apart I’m not sure why you’d sit only 8.5’ from the speakers — that’s even closer than would be considered nearfield listening (i.e. an equilateral triangle). I’d experiment with moving the speakers closer together or your listening seat further back and see what happens. Hey, it’s free so why not? |
Hi All, I spoke with Fritz and described my set-up and what speakers I have enjoyed listening to in the in the past. He suggested the Carbons versus the Carreras. A new pair of Carbons arrived today and have been playing for about four CD's worth of music. I simply placed them where a pair of Zu Audio Soul Sixes were running and have not fiddled with placement. About three feet from front wall, ten feet apart, and about eight and a half feet front my ears. In this setup, there is about twenty feet behind me. Using a First Watt F7 amp and Don Sachs preamp. PS Audio MWT and Mojo Audio B4B DAC. Initial thoughts are quite positive. Very easy to listen to. Good bass and detail. They seem a bit fleshier than the Soul Sixes but not quite as warm. Fiddles sound sweet. There is good nuance to the mid range and power to the music. Soundstage is between and behind the speakers. The ten foot span between the speakers is full. I think the treble is a bit muddy at the furthest most extension, just a hint of sibilance. Break in time needed I am sure. This will help dynamics as well, I expect. Their final location will be in a smaller room (20 X 15) and should be able to really fill that space. Will be fun to hear them break in and play with my tube amps as well. In the meantime, my initial opinion is that these are very good speakers. Again, thanks for the advice.
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Just wanted everyone to know I appreciated the discerning responses in this thread. I have reread it a couple of times and something new sticks in my brain each time. AVA has been mentioned by several of you. I had spoken with Frank in February and he suggested that I wait a couple of months as they were implementing a change to reduce noise. He was more descriptive than that, but I do not recall the exact terminology, sorry. He also confirmed that there are only silver face plates. Of course, when asked, my wife stated it needed to be a black faceplate. I forgot the "it is easier to beg forgiveness" rule! I have a call into Fritz. I think I generally prefer as much detail as possible from a tweeter. My experience with soft domes is I feel like they are a bit laid back and I am missing something. We'll see what Fritz suggests.
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@j_andrews Mixed feelings to be very honest. It controlled the Forte 12 inch woofer but just made the highs too polite. Very smooth sound, but not what i would characterize as liquid. The Forte's can boogie and put you in the room when paired with Don Sachs preamp and amp. YMMV!
also made the tew |
@dsper just re-read your comment about your F7 and Forte IV’s … so surprised to hear that. Are you generally happy with the First Watt F7 otherwise?
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I have Vandersteen VLR CT and the AVA SET 120 control amplifier in my den system (with Naim Uniti Atom preamp/DAC/streamer), which is a great pairing. Really brought those smooth carbon tweeters alive. If you go with the beryllium tweeter, Belles Aria would have great synergy I think. I had a Belles Aria, upgraded to Aria Signature which is in main system currently, paired with Focal 1007 Be standmounts with a beryllium tweeter. I think surprisingly I preferred the $1500 AVA SET 120 over the $4400 Belles Aria Signature with the Vandersteen VLR CT. |
Yes that’s how it works ! fyi, while the 70’s Yamaha sounded great (and fun), I took it out and put the Van Alstine back in. There’s just a whole order of magnitude of resolution between the two. I know people have had success with Pass xa25 or int-25, though I wonder… would those be maybe too soft for Carbons and better suited to the Carreras? But , my goodness, these speakers really create quite the presentation despite what powers them. So happy with my purchase from Fritz.
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The specs for the Fritz Carbon state they are 87 dB sensitive, meaning that one watt to one speaker will play at that volume with the measuring microphone 1 meter in front of the speaker in an anechoic chamber. So, not surprising that's what your meters show for the listening volume you reported. All that extra power is for when you listen a lot louder or play music with big dynamic peaks over the average level. |
Just for the hell of it I decided to pair my Fritz Carbons today with a vintage solid state integrated … my 1977 Yamaha CA-2010z, 120 Watts into 8 Ω. Even though I’ve had this amp I haven’t hooked the two up together before . Surprisingly smooth and controlled… despite a relatively low damping factor …and still, lots of presence. If the lovely VU meters are to be trusted , I’m outputting less than 1 watt at more than moderate listening levels (75 dB from my seat) Fun to get a different presentation from my daily (Alstine SET120)
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i have found the david belles amps to be slightly on the bright side of neutral (this is true even for his wonderful sa30 class a unit, which i have kept), a consistent trait/voicing of his products relative to other serious solid state amps such as ayre, pass, hegel, gryphon, boulder the aria in particular has a certain fine grain and sizzle to the treble... which can be a boon for certain types of speakers with laid back tweeters that overly smooth out the sound |
Van Alstine 120 Control Amp Review I highly recommend the Van Alstine Set 120 Control Amp. Thirty-day satisfaction guarantee
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@larsman Fritz have plenty of bass, especially for the size. That's definitely not my concern. The mid and treble is so smooth though that some might find them too laid back, more middle to back of the hall. I worry that a warm sounding amp will go the wrong way, and I do think Parasound is pretty warm. |
@erik_squires - That's interesting to hear! In my space with my gear, they're quite the opposite. Those Carrera's rock in my acoustically dead living room, and with the right source and gear, they will shake the floor even at moderate volume. I drive them through an MSB S-200 power amp. |
My experience with Fritz speakers is that he, like me, makes mellow and laid back speakers, especially in the mid-treble regions. I like it a lot and find it very natural and easy to listen to for long periods of time. The challenge however is a dark to mellow amp may be too dark, and that's kind of where I hear a lot of Parasound amps, and ICEpower Class D, both of which I've owned and have a positive impression of. I guess it's , yes Parasound is very good but is there an inexpensive amp that will give you a little more color? |
I'm glad someone with a lot more experience and higher post count mentioned it before me (soix), but I have yet to find a speaker that the humble 75W Belles Aria couldn't drive. In fact I demoed the Fritz Carbon 7 with the Belles and it was a great pairing. In speaking with Fritz, it was apparent that he also loves David Belles' products. |
Lots of good advice here. Thanks everyone!
@jjss49 and @j_andrews I appreciate the sound characterization of the Fritz speakers. This was the sort of info I was hoping to obtain. I had a pair of Tyler Speakers with cloth dome tweeters and they were a bit too laid back for my tastes. I might find the same situation with the Carbons... This is going to be work! I appreciate everyone's advice to think this through a bit. For example, my First Watt F7 amp paired with Klipsch Forte iv's resulted in an enjoyable listen but the "I am here" presence of the Forte's is lost. I certainly should speak with Fritz again. He and I talked last fall when I was inquiring whether he still built any towers (he does not). And we have not even discussed the source yet. Due to space constraints, I need to think CD player and not separate DAC and transport, so another opportunity... Thanks, again!
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fritz’s speakers come with a very high end be tweeter or a more forgiving (but less resolving) cloth dome tweeter the carrera be and its ilk are best used with uber smooth refined solid state, such as hegel, pass, ayre, primare i-30, and so on the lesser models such as carbon et al can be used with more typical solid state -- belles a/b, marantz, rotel, bryston and that ilk |
