Telefunkens are the best for clean (neutral), airy, transparent sound.
I changed a Tube and…
I liked it!
Have a Rogue Audio Cronos mag lll bought it years ago as original Cronos Mag sent it in last year for the upgrade to lll . Never changed any of the original tubes .
The amp was lightly used due to my changing amps like regularly. Decided to stick with Cronos and and have really enjoyed it .
Playing vinyl for the majority of time and seem satisfied with Triode mode . Amp runs perfectly no noise at all but thought about all the threads regarding tube rolling especially the center 12au7 .
pulled out the stock JJ and found a Genalex Gold Lion ECC82/B749 (12au7) bought them 7-8 years ago .
Put the GL into center position and was thinking “am I going to really hear a difference “??? Figured I listen to a few LPs and maybe I’d notice something different good or bad Maybe ? after all it’s just one tiny tube !
Well I was blown away !, 30 seconds in listening to “two of a mind “ Desmond /Muliligan things just got a whole lot more musical 🎶. Hard to describe everything seemed improved , midrange was wow ! Soundstage was better , etc .
Went to another familiar favorite Grant Green “ Idle Moments “ Oh yes the magic is here too
Is this even possible or am I under a placebo delusion lol
Now I’m really wondering what about the other 2 12au7’s and even the 2 -12ax7’s
what else am I missing ?
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Not sure how to link to the thread about AI’s use for HiFi, but therein you’ll find my input/driver/rectifier tube story. In summary I have rolled tubes (mostly 300B), talked to folks, bought better amp and rolled more tubes, etc. I landed on a fine sounding SET with WE300B power tubes, but as a friend’s insistence used my setup and asked ChatGPT which input/driver/rectifier tubes to try. I had to describe my system a little further (speakers, inputs, cables, etc), but in the end I got a very specific suggestion (mfg, year, identifying markings, reputable sellers like Brent) for 12AU7, 12BH7, and 5U4G tubes that sound amazing to me in the real world. I share this to agree with your observation that the little tubes matter and that you’d probably be surprised how much difference the plate driver and rectifier tubes can make. The AI reference isn’t any kind of endorsement or recommendation... Enjoy the experimentation!
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helomech -Interesting take appreciate the info . I had the Gold Lions sitting new for years [ forgot i had them ] So it was an easy choice to use one of them .
I went digging deeper into my cabinets & found all kinds of NOS tubes . Most being 12au7 & 12ax7's these were bought 2015 / 2016 - must have thought I'd tube roll down the road ? Have Mullards , RCA Clear tops , Telefunken , Sylvania etc.. I had some receipts - sellers were Brent Jesse / Andy VTS / Bryce ? Do not want to go down the tube rolling Hole - did that with Amps / Speakers and wind up listening to equipment not Music I can see the logic in new production being reliable but sonics are tricky with any thing NOS vs New . I'll probably pick up the Gold Pin as that was mentioned by Bill at Rogue - he did say NOS / Vintage could be better and mentioned Jesse & Andy .
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I have a nearly new Cronus Dark in my second system. Like you, I recently began some tube rolling, only the center preamp slot, because my experience in tube rolling with a CM2 was that the other tubes make only a negligible difference. Mostly I have been playing with new-production tubes because I generally find they tend to perform better than NOS tubes. That has been a recurring pattern in almost every tube-based product I’ve owned. Perhaps that’s only because I don’t purchase the NOS tubes that go for like $300 each. Anyhow, I recently purchased a low-noise, matched-triodes Genalex Gold Lion 12au7 from Tube Depot. I also purchased the same JJ preamp tube that Rogue used to supply in the CMII. Previous to these I purchased a NOS Telefunken smooth-plate. In playing with all these, this is how I would rank their performance: Best: gold pin JJ ECC82 that came stock with the CM Dark. Next Best: JJ ECC802S that Rogue used to equip in the CMII Next: NOS Telefunken smooth plate. Least Good: Genalex Gold Lion
Yup, the Gold Lion has been the least enjoyable of these, and by a rather wide margin. It could need more hours, but within the 10 or so hours I tried to tolerate it, the sound was closed in, with a very recessed midrange. The Tele was a little grainy relative to the JJs, but then I didn’t buy a $200 example from VTS, rather a $100 one I found on ebay. I too will vouch for Andy at VTS: great tubes at mostly reasonable prices. Where he and I greatly differ is his appreciation for NOS RCA tubes. Every time I go with that recommendation I end up disappointed. Personally, I would only pick from his stock of Amperex, Teles, Siemens or Mullards. I have had some unpleasant experiences ordering from Brent Jesse. Two of the half dozen or so orders I received from him were total duds, completely unusable on arrival. I have had no such issues with any of the other popular tube vendors. |
@invalid Wrote:
I agree! Mike |
Not trying to rain on your parade, but if you think Russian made GL reissues are good, dive into NOS. Brent Jesse should be your guy. It doesn’t have to be more expensive. Look at Baldwin 12AU7 too to get some lower cost ideas. He lists every tube he has in detail on his website. Spend some time there, then email him rather than call. The implementation matters though, so experimentation is required. For example, I have a DAC and a phone stage that both use a pair of 12AX7. $300 Tele’s sound better in the PS than $450 Mullard’s, and vice versa.
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NOS ( new old stock vintage tubes) are expensive relative to new production but in my experience the sound quality is far superior. Brent happens to be the most reasonable priced NOS tubes. He has a vast knowledge of what tubes work best in specific amp/preamp applications and you can return them within 30 days if they don’t work for you. You can call him directly. Mine are available |
“What do you mean by that - too inexpensive? The new production tubes you are using currently retail for $60+ per tube. The tubes I mentioned are cheap as chips and they may further rock your world of tube rolling.” I’ll revisit the site , last time I looked prices seemed higher but then all nos tubes are getting $ I’ll look for ones you mentioned ….thanks for advice |
I have a set of NOS preamp tubes I used for 2 months before I sold the Rogue Cronus Magnum II. I bought them from Brent Jessee of AudioTubes.com. 3 Mazda 12au7, 2 GE 7025 (12ax7) $450 The change from stock was extremely dramatic in all aspects. Detail, soundstage, cleaner highs, punchy lows. My thought was what amp is this and what did you do with the Rogue. These tubes are just sitting in my drawer. Feel free to DM me with questions |
I picked the reasonably priced tubes that give you a good taste of RCA and Amperex. I’ve used all of them in my preamp with good results. I generally run late 60’s Mullard Blackburn 12au7’s (short plate/round getter), but he didn’t have any, plus they would be $150+ a pair if he did. I prefer a 3D presentation with some weight/color. Oh, since you have spares try them in the driver positions.
DeKay |
I have the original kt120 tubes - I do have a bunch of tube 12au7 & ax7's bought a few years back thinking i'd change / roll - never got to it . found the Gold Lions in a Box with some Mullard EL34'S [ For Dynaco ST70] and figured i'd try one - being new I wouldn't have doubts on the wear .
not sure about those prices from Brent - ? |
For fun go to Brent Jessee and pick up singles of these 12au7 tubes... RCA early grey plate (organ stock) - $15 RCA black plate (butt ugly) - $30 Amperex World Logo Holland $59 You might also pick up 2 of the $15 jobs to try as drivers. Aside from Mullard you will be able to sample the sound of my favorite 12au7 tubes. I’m not keen on Seimens, Telefunken and Mazda (except for the early Mazda).
DeKay
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JJ small signal tubes are the poorest SQ I’ve ever experienced. I have multiple Rogue items but not yours. In my M180’s each has a 12AX7 and 2- 12AU7’s, the 12AX7 is the phase tube and has a pretty strong influence on gain. I currently have 12AT7’s in that slot as they have a lower Mu ( gain ). There are about 4 different tubes that you can run in the slot. 12AY7 (45), 12AT7 (60) 5751 (70), 12AX7 (100) with the corresponding mu. Your 12AU7 has a gain of 100. Rogue often recommends Mullard NOS tubes but I’m not a fan of their sound. I’m not well versed with new production 12AU7’s , but for nos in Rogue I like RCA and Tekefunken which are unfortunately expensive. I recently had my amps serviced and upgraded by Rogue. They were retubed with new production Tung Sol 5751 gold pins for the 12AX7 slot and they sound VERY NICE ! I actually preferred them over nos Telefunken. I have nos GE 5 Star and Sylvania Gold label for that slot too. I would avoid any of the JJ’s even the higher grade ones. Not sure in your amp if you would effect overall power going to a 5751 , being lower gain it imparts less noise. But with new production input tubes averaging $40-50 each I’d change them all. BTW what power tube are you running ? Happy Listening, Mike B. |
@mfm22 Changing a tube in an amp or preamp is a classic way to change the sound and/or get it to sound better. The difference is not only audible, it can be quite measurable too. This is why there is such a market for NOS vintage tubes! |