I'm not adding to the pile-on; in fact, I wrote a even tempered post above, with a question to the OP- I'd be interested in an answer since it seems like it got lost in the sniping.
Hype, Hyperbole and high price!
Okay, I understand that this site has to make money by having advertisers, but cheese and crackers, the claims that are made are just laughable if not down right criminal! Before I attended an engineering university I too was duped into buying expensive wires and such. Now, armed with an engineering and physics background, I can see through the BS claims made. I try and not let it get in the way of my enjoyment of good quality stereo equipment, but when a salesman tries to sell me something based on testimonials, hype and hyperbole, I tell him politely my background and then ask him a series of questions which leaves him dumbfounded.
Such crap as directional wires - (I used to work for both Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman) and trust me, if we had to test the miles of wires for directionality in every piece of equipment built...well you get the gist.
I have friends that are audio snobs and although they argue with me (Basically buyer's remorse) they know that what I say is true and end the conversation. Oh well, I suppose I will continue to get a headache when I read said claims.
Sigh!
Such crap as directional wires - (I used to work for both Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman) and trust me, if we had to test the miles of wires for directionality in every piece of equipment built...well you get the gist.
I have friends that are audio snobs and although they argue with me (Basically buyer's remorse) they know that what I say is true and end the conversation. Oh well, I suppose I will continue to get a headache when I read said claims.
Sigh!
142 responses Add your response
geared 4me- You missed my point completely, I was just pointing out that the industry is flawed and unless we as consumers put an end to it it will continue. Superiority? I highly doubt that, I come from very humble beginnings and when attacked by people who misinterpret I fall back on my service and the freedoms that we as proud Americans are afforded. Everyone has an opinion and not once do I ask anyone to bow to my so called superiority. BTW, I did not start by demeaning anyone but rather resorted to a retort due to being attacked for my views on the obvious. If that offends you, then so be it, you are so entitled to your opinion. If you cannot recognize the problems in this industry and the misrepresentation that abounds, I truly feel sorry for you as it will continue. I was forewarned that this topic would spark disdain and comments, but I for one will not go through life taking a marketer's flowery description based on flawed science. |
Whart - Yes, sniping at it's best. Touchy topic for sure, not a topic for the thin skinned. As for your question, yes I did hear differences in various cables and two come to mind, Kimber and Nordost, for some reason they made a difference when used with my setup. And yes, everyone is selling something. Just look at the political climate, more snake oil and hokus pokus and bait and switch. I love being accused of having a superiority complex though. A kid born in the "Hood" that made good. LOL! |
Whart - See the link below, an extreme example of what disturbs me, but an example none the less. http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm |
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kenny- I think the reason for the reaction is that most of the people posting here- i can't speak for everyone- are aware of hype in the industry, and cables in particular. But you seemed to be painting with such a broad brush that it wiped over the good, legitimate products and their users. I don't get into fights on the Internet- it is more productive to be positive and helpful where I can be, and just ignore the nonsense. But, since you started the thread, and it was provocative, didn't you expect such responses? (You seem like a smart guy). |
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Whart - If it generates thought and meaningful discussion I will walk through the gates of hell. At least, or I hope it will make those think. As for painting with a broad brush, please forgive, as I know that there are quality products out there that forego the hype and the product proves itself time and time again. |
My garage system is Bottlehead SETs, Bottlehead pre and phono pre, AH! cd, Thorens TT and Madisound BK-16s with Mirage sub. So it’s a "kick butt" little tube system. What interconnects I use make little audible difference so I use sub $200 IC’s. In the house there is a Very Nice tube/SS system that, with those same interconnects, is a real price/performance disaster that only just competes with the SET gear. But with its current combination of Nordost Valhalla 2, Tyr 2 and Frey 2, it soundly (ha!) spanks the SET gear from the first note. I eventually learned to be wary of logic/physics based assumptions in audio, keep an open mind and go with what works. After all, it’s physics now saying that, at the quantum level, the property of matter changes when it knows you are looking at it. Swear by the Almighty, look this one up. Maybe physics changes when it knows it’s being listened to as well. |
Wlute - I tend to trust the ears as well and try not to let other factors get in the way. That is why I try to go in w/o being influenced before an audition. There were some items that when sampled made my ears bleed or felt like they were going to. Some of the equipment that I had my heart set on disappointed me when tested and others gave me that feeling of pure joy. I have to agree with you that for some strange reason Nordost cables makes my tube system sing! Yes, Physics at the quantum level acts like that gopher game when being observed, you know, the one where you try to smack the gopher with the mallet as it sticks its head out of the hole? Strange how that works, eh? (Spending too much time in Canada!) |
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"I have to agree with you that for some... strange reason... Nordost cables makes my tube system sing!" Kenny928... I do not believe all wire sounds the same, as many others here also believe. If you like what the Nordost cables do for your system,then that my friend, makes you a believer in the wire matters crowd. The 'strange reason' you like Nordost is the engineering behind them,not voodoo. |
What happened to, "I am an engineer first and an audiophile second." What a fraud! |
Well this thread is very entertaining and somewhat informative at least in the sense of demonstrating how narrow minded, insecure, and uncompromising both sides of any controversial issue can be. At least for those who might be sitting on the fence which I suspect is most people. The truth usually does lie somewhere in the middle. |
aolmrd1241 - I tried to point out that I get disturbed when I see speaker cable listed for 15K and then read the literature claiming this and that, then my eyes roll back in my head. I avoid the literature of the affordable items, then audition then make an informed decision based on that. My skeptic hat goes on when I am purposely looking at adverts that try to justify such an absurd price point for cable. The question I ask is, "what makes this cable worth thousands of dollars to that of another affordable one?" Curiosity? Maybe, fraud, you be the judge. |
It seems you are doing with motorcycles what you disdain of others in terms of cables. Chrome and whitewalls add zero functionality, advantage to riding (unless you wish to make an argument that whitewalls add to safety features, but somehow I doubt that the reason for purchase). :( I point this out because you seem to disdain people for their selections which can't be justified in engineering terms. Yet, none of us is perfectly consistent in the matter. I happen to be a rider, too, and I find it not justifiable to spend obnoxious amounts on a cycle. I have a Kawasaki Versys 650 and a Yamaha Stryker, which is about half the cost of a comparable Harley and about twice as reliable, imo. I wouldn't dream of spending more for a bike in which you get "nothing" of added value. Very poor performance to value outliers are seen in custom choppers, and some of them as you know are wretched rides. Is there any conceivable justification for ownership? Not in my opinion; it's just money blown foolishly for a brand affiliation or attention. Now, that's MY perspective; yours is obviously different. And that's ok. Perhaps you can see that this can apply also to cables. There is a highly variable range of performance, bling and price for all consumer items, and people fall into a wide distribution on purchases. FYI, I review and have worked with dozens of sets of cables, and let's just say that experience changes one's perception on the value that cables bring to systems. I suppose that if I had much more experience, say trying fifteen other bikes, I may have a different set of expectations and criteria for what constitutes a good value/performance/price equation for motorcycles. :) |
@kenny928 wrote: geared 4me- You missed my point completely, I was just pointing out that the industry is flawed and unless we as consumers put an end to it it will continue. Yes, but what you are missing is the industry is simply a reflection of the flawed economy. As more and more money is passed upstream, the rich become richer. Hence the 'need' for $100,000 amplifiers, $500,000 speakers, $10,000 cables. It's not just the audio industry either, look at boats, cars, pets, etc. Is there really a need for a $1.8 million dollar 52 carat diamond dog collar? http://www.incrediblethings.com/lists/14-ridiculously-expensive-pet-products/ You will not bring any sanity to the audio industry until sanity is restored to the economic system as a whole. When wallets tighten, industries will change to reflect the change. In the meantime, I don't see how it pays to shoot the messenger (industry) if you don't like the message (economy). Industries cater to their customer base, the customer tells the market what they want. If you look at the audio industry in general, you will note that EVERYONE has come out with newer, MEGA expensive products, not just cables. Amp manufacturers today top of the line product is selling for 3-5 times what their top of the line product sold for 8-12 years ago. I don't blame the manufacturers, they are only doing what they are told to by the market. |
Douglas - I agree with you partially, I do not have a disdain for those who choose a particular cable over another, I have a disdain for the marketing tactics used in this hobby. By all means, if one wants to spend thousands of $ on cable, go for it. I just think that some techniques used are very questionable and deceiving with no accountability. As for bikes, I have had my fair share of them as well, from Japanese bikes, which BTW are very reliable, to the older Harleys, which I would not want to ride due to their inherent problems and uncomfortable ride. Harley took a turn for the worst/better with their new design after their bankruptcy, however, I can't justify buying a new one as their prices are ridiculous. Trust me, I rag on them as well. They too hide the problems associated with their product and basically lie to their customers. I did not buy that road king new and the chrome is being replaced a little at a time. As for reliability, I did make changes to the cam tensioners and other issues that plague this brand and made it a more reliable ride. I get just as much flak from the Harley forum for pointing out the moco's issues, so I am use to it. I appreciate you not going to the lowest common denominator like some ot the others. Regards, Ken Ride safely! |
Wow! This "are high end cables worth the cost" discussion is like the "tubes vs. solid state" or "analog vs. digital" discussion, really gets audiophiles on edge, with the "I know what I'm talking about, you don't know anything" edge to it. Hey, this hobby is all about "enjoyment". If you get more enjoyment from high-end cables, etc., good for you! |
I occasionally transform into Madman, especially when the nonsense or propaganda detector goes off, but I do try to resist. I do believe that value is in the eye of the buyer and that knowledge and understanding is always the best ticket. Knowledge and understanding of people as well as technology. The listener is perhaps the most important component in any system for determining results. Most of the rest comes down to a few fundamental principles to follow to get good results and the rest is mostly personal opinion and preference, including how to best tweak and how much one spends or on what. I consider overemphasizing the tweaks or fine tuning before addressing the fundamentals to be an exercise in futility to be avoided at all costs. i tend to disregard anything said about any tweak or fine tuning unless put into context relative to the primary factors that determine results prior. Put the horse before the cart as they say. Anything otherwise will be a never-ending blind chase that benefits the vendors only. |
Kenny 928 ' I was forewarned that this topic would spark disdain and comments, but I for one will not go through life taking a marketer's flowery description based on flawed science.' I would say it didn't 'spark disdain', it started out that way. And about not going through life taking a marketer's description. Well you have a nice journey then. I do not think I will go on it with you. I figured out a long time ago marketing claims made many times are stretched to the 'inth' degree. Sometimes those companies feel to present something as fact, that is not fact. I can't take advertising at face value. And nothing can protect ourselves from that, except, ourselves. I don't want to be the advertisement police. You can if you want to though. Have fun. I think you served this country so that people could have free speech no? Personally I really don't care to much how things are advertised. But I do appreciate that many things come to market and tell us they are here to be bought. That is the important thing. Then we can make a decision, hopefully a wise one, after that. And then enjoy the many things we have to choose from. I am sorry many of us cannot be as you said you were 'armed with a physics and engineering background'. But I think you are warning us of something we knew a long time ago. Thanks for your concern though. |
The unwritten law seems to be that it is OK for marketers to exaggerate. Its all part of the game. Right or wrong, it helps keep goods flowing and our economy going. But its never Ok to outright lie. At some point when vendors cross the border too far, they might get caught and penalized legally. Usually it has to involve some harm to the buyer beyond just convincing them to spend their money on said product. Since most audio products are luxuries that as far as I know cause no harm, well that's what one has to deal with. Engineering backgrounds certainly help. Education should always be applauded not denigrated. But there is usually two sides to any story. Its all a game. Some play it more honestly than others. |
Hi, newbie here. I was interested in this supercharged forum and decided I wanted to positively contribute. First, I'm a college student that could never afford some of the cables talked about in this forum, however, even with my limited experience, I must say that not all interconnects sound alike. I can say this because the first "high-end" cables I purchased from an authorized dealer (too many fakes out there unfortunately) was a set of Kimber Silver Streaks. I found the streaks to sound much better to "my" ears than the cables that were included in the box. Anyway, looking at the Kimbers design, being so simple, I decided I would copy them and build my own to save BIG$. Obtained some braided (3 conductor) wire and some decent looking RCA connectors. I used a silver solder to the terminations, 1 for signal and 2 for ground. Bottom line, they sounded absolutely terrible! I was so disappointed! What in the world was the difference?? Was it because the Kimbers used silver for the signal line?? I just don't know... I ended up populating my system with both balanced and single ended Silver Streaks with no desire to look back. I always wondered what a set of cables costing more than the component your connecting it to would sound like, I must believe there comes a point of diminishing returns as well as "drinking by the label". Lastly I believe, case-in-point, that there is a very loose correlation of price vs performance. I say this because again, I have my PC connected to my CDP/DAC using a TOSLINK cable because I had a nasty ground loop hum with COAX. The TOSLINK cables I tried came from AR and another from Monster, the AR cable sounded different, not actually better, just different. How could this be? It's a digital signal, should they not sound the same? Anyway, I found this website called HDTVHookup and I purchased a no-name generic 280 fiber Glass cable for $22, wow, what a difference!!??? I apologize in advance for being so verbose, please excuse. |
Obviously those who’ve been around and know the system need no warnings. Its those trying to learn still that might appreciate hearing the old news discussed again. Maybe idealistic young folks with technical knowledge might make things better in the future if able to withstand the constant pressure to just accept things the way they are. I’m trying to look at this from the perspective of an intelligent young engineering student or engineer who does not have money to burn (yet hopefully) who wants to cut through all the malarkey and have the best system they can for whatever they can afford. That was me almost 40 years ago. I fell for a lot of gimmicks back then as part of my pursuit on a limited budget and feel foolish in hindsight. Maybe if the travesty of many colleges (not all) putting students into deep debt immediately just to get a college education (some would say the equivalent of a high school degree years ago) is addressed they might be able to afford expensive items of questionable value sooner. I’m not holding my breath on that one though..... |
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Mapman wrote, "How about addressing that and calling a cease fire on all personal attacks or judgements." Gee Whiz, Mapman, look who’s talking. People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. It seems to me you oft mistake serious debate for personal attacks, why it’s almost as if it’s your way or the highway. If you don’t like the heat get out of the kitchen. It also looks, suspiciously, on top of everything else, like you wish to be the moderator here. Give us a break. |
mapman 13,251 posts 05-05-2016 1:14pm Geoff have fun jibing. Me no play. Just stay on topic. Looks like another post from the Mapman with nothing of any import in it. Like any troll he just cannot stay away. Whenever there is some action, a chance to stake his claim, there you’ll find Mapman, over posting. Looking on the bright side, he scored another easy post, No. 13,251. Besides, you're wasting your bullets on me. I am invincible. |
KennyG28 wrote, "asp307 - When it comes to money, yes, has nothing to do with me proving how smart I am. I am just trying to generate a discussion on what is transpiring in the industry. The smart consumer is an educated consumer. Would you buy a car on pure hype? Much like the vitamin industry claims can be made without any substance. Just look at Machina Dynamica's Brilliant Pebbles! Type that into oogle's search engine and tell me that that will do what it claims! I have a friend with a 30K system and he actually bought these! Really?" Now, I'm definitely getting a bad feeling. geoff kait Machina Dynamica we do artificial atoms right |
There is no doubt that all wires do not sound the same although many may sound more similar than different. There are basic electronic principles that alone explain why. Plus I actually hear differences in certain cases. Just avoid cheap wires and try designs that are significantly different for best shot at hearing. Some uber expensive wires are surely good as well but value there is often questionable for me. If those are one's thing then more power to you. |
